Physics and relics

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from what Fixed_Gauge said in his post, there is controversy in this area
There may be controversy in the what’s happening and how is it happening. However, Fixed_Gauge’s last sentence in post #16, indicates that there is no controversy regarding the unchanging nature of the substance in which these fluctuations are occurring.
 
Wouldn’t the same considerations apply to old books, old paintings, old papyri, any archeological artifacts, etc?
 
Yes, the substance would be a new one (a new book for example) if the material is all new
 
Yes, the substance would be a new one (a new book for example) if the material is all new
It would also apply to our bodies: we are getting older day after day, but at the same time we are always new, right?
 
Souls gain knowledge and merit
Does that explain why our bodies look older and older even though their atoms are renewed?

Referring to my previous example of my books: they become old as well. If it is true that it’s constitutive atoms are constantly replaced by new ones, then those new atoms emerge already attached to other atoms preserving their previous configurations in the existing molecules. That would be the reason why the book as a whole is not renewed. A configuration or structure is preserved. The sheets are oxidized and become brownish and brittle, but it still is the same book inasmuch as certain “form” is preserved. That is what makes me say “oh, this is my book!”. I never check the identity of the atomic particles.
 
The bodies look older because of the molecules, but if everything is made up of new atoms it is not the same body
 
The bodies look older because of the molecules, but if everything is made up of new atoms it is not the same body
The physical body always change but soul is same. By Islamic knowledge soul(spirit) is a law of God just like other physical laws. Physical laws do not change but they make things changed. Soul as a law is different from other laws that soul also has a body which does not consist of physical materials or subatomic particles. For instance Gravity is a fixed law which not change by time. Soul is a law but also that law has life, seeing, hearing, mind, senses etc.

If human had got not a soul so there would be many unjustices. Because for about 6 years all atoms and subatoms materials of body change. If Some one say that he/she killed someone 7 years ago so the killer was some atoms which are not my part any more? Nobody will confirm that because the main responsible is soul. Body is like clothes of soul. Soul may change many dress.

There are very powerful connection between body and soul and also between natural laws. Body and soul are so telescoped that they can depart just by death.
 
The bodies look older because of the molecules, but if everything is made up of new atoms it is not the same body
You started talking of atomic particles which are continuously annihilated and replaced by new ones. If we were able to see them, and there where two atomic particles of the same element in front of us, we would be able to say “there is one particle here and one there; so, there are two of them, and this one is not that one”. If I presented one of those particles to you at a given moment, and then I presented the other to you at a moment later, you would not be able to say if it really is “another” or not. In the same manner, if you were able to see the particle that dissapears and then “the other” that appears instead of “the first one”, you would not be able to say if it really is “another”.

It is supposed that if you were able to see an atomic particle, you would observe an incredible dynamics in front of you. You would not observe anything fixed; however, that would be what we call an atom. Now, you want to add that it dissapears and reappears. I would say, “well, perhaps that is precisely what we want to mean when we say ‘this is an atom’”, because nothing in reality is fixed the way you would like.
 
You started talking of atomic particles which are continuously annihilated and replaced by new ones. If we were able to see them, and there where two atomic particles of the same element in front of us, we would be able to say “there is one particle here and one there; so, there are two of them, and this one is not that one”. If I presented one of those particles to you at a given moment, and then I presented the other to you at a moment later, you would not be able to say if it really is “another” or not. In the same manner, if you were able to see the particle that dissapears and then “the other” that appears instead of “the first one”, you would not be able to say if it really is “another”.

It is supposed that if you were able to see an atomic particle, you would observe an incredible dynamics in front of you. You would not observe anything fixed; however, that would be what we call an atom. Now, you want to add that it dissapears and reappears. I would say, “well, perhaps that is precisely what we want to mean when we say ‘this is an atom’”, because nothing in reality is fixed the way you would like.
When something is not “fixed in reality” it is never the same thing that it was though
 
When something is not “fixed in reality” it is never the same thing that it was though
If because it is continuously changing something is never the same thing, then what do words mean? For example, what do you mean when you say “dog”?
 
Same consciousness? But as Hume pointed out, if there is no guilt or merit, are we really the same person minute by minute?
 
Maybe Hume has provided an argument for the soul. Buddhists would disagree and say Hume provided an argument against the permanence of a soul. On the other hand, if guilt and merit exist there must be a soul
 
Maybe Hume has provided an argument for the soul. Buddhists would disagree and say Hume provided an argument against the permanence of a soul. On the other hand, if guilt and merit exist there must be a soul
I don’t think so. That dubious “something” called “Hume” was a phenomenalist which included the “I” among the set of phenomena. If there was any “truth” in its writings, then, as a set of phenomena, it was self refuting. There was no “Hume”, but just a succession of disjointed phenomena nested within other phenomena.
 
Can guilt reside in a body if there is no soul? That is, is materialists are correct? Why not believe in Hume’s theory?
 
Hello thinkandmull. I am currently studying for a PhD in particle theory, so I think I can help you out.

A lot of people have the idea that QM is a magical idea that makes nature unknowable. That technically isn’t true; at the fundamental level, QM is a very thinly disguised theory of linear algebra. Particles have wave-like properties, but fundamentally, they are governed by algebraic properties that restrict their structure to a few configurations, known as eigenfunctions. The uncertainty between position and momentum certainly exists, but they are simply the result of the inability of the position and momentum matrices to be simultaneously diagonalized. What this means is that certain values of these particles cannot be measured with 100% certainty at the same time, but we can know how these particles act on a macroscopic scale.

As for your point about particles appearing and disappearing at will, this is a facet of the theory of quantum fields, or QFT. QFT is quite a bit more complicated than quantum mechanics, so I won’t go into it here; basically, the particles that disappear and reappear are called “virtual” particles, and aren’t really what we consider particles at all. They are merely (in some interpretations) mathematical crutches that arise from the difficulty in solving the equations of motion of particles in this quantum field. Think of them like ripples in the quantum field. However, their behavior is well understood and there is nothing unknown about why they are there.

I’m glad you are thinking about the philosophical implications of QM (many physicists don’t even want to think about them 😃 ) But there is no conflict between QM and Catholic spirituality. Relics may be filled with virtual particles which have fundamental uncertainty, but the essence of the Relics is there all the same
You should post more often!
 
Can guilt reside in a body if there is no soul? That is, is materialists are correct? Why not believe in Hume’s theory?
I have a personal experience of the reality of myself; my permanence or my evanescence…, Why should I resort on what Hume or another have to say about this specific subject, if it is the case that they have something to say?

And you?, don’t you have personal experiences? Does your interpretation of Hume’s words provide you with some clarity about your personal experience?
 
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