Piercings - out of line?

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This may be an indication that counseling is needed, so you guys can figure out how to talk about things ahead of time and how to respect each other’s opinion and parent together rather than give your children reason to think you can be played against each other (this may already be happening.)

At the very least you should be on the same page financially. I know in our home, regardless of any other objection about body piercings or markings, it would be a substantial enough expense that we would have to clear it with the other for that reason alone. Same with phones.

My kids are 4 and 2 and my husband and I have already discussed things like this because we want to be on the same page for our kids. Different families may decide on different guidelines than the ones we think we want now, and we may change our minds too, but some stuff needs to be identified and talked about beforehand. It is a dangerous thing to assume that our spouse knows our feelings about an issue, and while I tend to side with your view of things, I also think that it could very well be unfair for you to assume your wife knows that if you don’t have the conversation beforehand of “How do we handle this issue when it comes up?”
 
I take care of the “major” bills, Wife takes care of groceries, kids clothes, daycare, kids activities, gasoline for her car.

Her Dad is paying for the iphones as she knows I wont pay for it. He is undermining my authority as well IMHO.
 
I suggested. We went to secular counseling years ago, and she said it didn’t work…told me the counselor told her privately, “there is nothing I can do for you”; something to the extent I am too “old school” and there is nothing he can do about it. (real nice eh?) So she feels there is nothing to be done for “my problem”. I have half a mind to leave and let them live like the white trash in the local projects whom all have plenty of $ for tats,piercings and iphones. BTW in regards to my “temper” she has no problem asking for the “heavy” in me to come out and play when the kids don’t listen to her…

Just really fed up.
This doesn’t sound like it’s just about the piercings, and quite frankly, your marriage needs help.

I doubt the counselor said that to your wife privately, it sounds like your wife is just making up ammo. But just in case, you guys should have a marriage counselor who has a strict rule against private sessions with either of you. That creates a conflict of interest.
 
This doesn’t sound like it’s just about the piercings, and quite frankly, your marriage needs help.

I doubt the counselor said that to your wife privately, it sounds like your wife is just making up ammo. But just in case, you guys should have a marriage counselor who has a strict rule against private sessions with either of you. That creates a conflict of interest.
I agree with BEL.

This is really serious. Your marriage is not functioning and both of you need counseling.
 
So you chew your wife out, blow up over things, and are threatening to withhold her allowance.

Your wife is not the only one who is not being shown a lack of respect. You have to give respect before you can expect it in return.

You should use resolving this current problem to get counseling.
 
So you chew your wife out
As I should have. What she did was inexcusable.
I have kept my temper in check for several months. I didnt even “blow up” over this issue.
and are threatening to withhold her allowance.
She doesnt get an “allowance”. She gets bailed out for blowing her budget. Since I cant “blow up” over these issues and my wishes are ignored, I cant seem to think of any other way to get through to her.
Your wife is not the only one who is not being shown a lack of respect. You have to give respect before you can expect it in return.
Funny I would never do such a thing with my kids if my wife objected.

You know she says something a lot that reminds me of where I think she places me in the whole scheme of things. She address the kids as “my children” instead of “our children” and yes I told her how that makes me think.
You should use resolving this current problem to get counseling.
I would if she would agree.

Oh BTW last night I discover the Wife with the 12 yr old looking at hardware for the piercings over the iphones…no I didnt say anything…:mad:
 
This doesn’t sound like it’s just about the piercings, and quite frankly, your marriage needs help.

I doubt the counselor said that to your wife privately, it sounds like your wife is just making up ammo. But just in case, you guys should have a marriage counselor who has a strict rule against private sessions with either of you. That creates a conflict of interest.
My husband and I went to marriage counseling in the first years of our marriage. After the first session, the counselor told me that my husband was a jerk and that I should get a divorce. :eek:

As far as the OP goes, marriage counseling is good advice. If she won’t go, I think he should go alone.
 
So you chew your wife out
The thing is, sitting on something that irritates you for a while and then blowing up about it is not a sign of maturity. You should be able to say something and stay calm about it, and your wife should be able to listen to you, and then the two of you should work together to figure something out. I say this as a person who struggles with grudge-holding and sitting there waiting for the other person to get why I’m mad when I haven’t said anything about it - cut it out, because that’s not doing you any favors at all.

I am also trying to figure out how exactly you guys work out your financials, because if I’m interpreting what you said earlier correctly it works like this: you make your salary and spend it on certain household expenses, and she makes her salary and spends it on certain household expenses. But there’s no budget and no accountability, if I’m reading correctly (or you each have your own). Ideally, the money you both make should be pooled together and all household expenses should be agreed upon together. There is no “your money” and “her money” - it should be “our money.” (I think it’s a good idea if each spouse has a bit of fun money to spend pretty much how they choose, but even then expenses like phones or piercings are significant enough or have other dimensions to them that they would be discussed first.)

There are definitely some deep issues at work here and it doesn’t seem like either of you are really relating to each other in a healthy way. You should be a team and not in opposition to each other. I highly doubt that her counselor said what she said, unless there’s a LOT you’re not telling us about your behavior, or the counselor is grossly incompetent.

You both have a lot to work on, and it’s not surface level stuff.
 
The thing is, sitting on something that irritates you for a while and then blowing up about it is not a sign of maturity. You should be able to say something and stay calm about it, and your wife should be able to listen to you, and then the two of you should work together to figure something out.
Well it seems that approach doesnt work. “Yelling” seems to be the only way to get their attention. The wife is too weak willed to follow thru.

Let me relate a story. The house is a pig stye. Wife decides to make a chore list with consequences if they dont do what they should. .She was the enforcer. Well that lasted about a week. So I took over and I ENFORCED and did not put up with cleaning done half-assed or not done at all. . If the kids did a good job for the week they got some money even…Kids were getting grounded from here to eternity. Wife got mad with me…“Cant you ground them when on days they dont have plans” Yes she literally said that. This all boiled over to a huge blow up by me and I was forced to sleep at moms for an evening.

Wife said she likes a clean house, but hates cleaning more…when she was gorwing up they had a housekeeper…never had to lift a finger. Me on the other hand had to clean up around the house. My moms house could be an IBM clean room…and we had nine kids.

So I stopped yelling and became “calm”. …there is now blue paint in the kids bathroom sink, all kinds of clutter in the hallway in the kids floor, dirty dishes all over the kids rooms. Electric bill $240 now as they leave light on everywhere - thats my reward for “telling” them vs yelling. The kitchin is so filthy there are flies. Finally one of the daughters was so grossed out that even she complained…I said, well clean it up…didnt YELL. She replied its not my turn…And of course now piercings

Tonight I plan on calmly telling the kids if there are any more dishes found upstairs in the bedrooms, hallways, on the roof, the guilty party will forfeit the iphone for a day. Sound reasonable? I will get my wife on board first of course.
I say this as a person who struggles with grudge-holding and sitting there
waiting for the other person to get why I’m mad when I haven’t said anything about it - cut it out, because that’s not doing you any favors at all.
Yes I was like that too…like I said I now announce my displeasure without grudges and not yelling and it seems things are now even worse.
 
This is something to talk about with a competent counselor (maybe start with your priest and see if he has recommendations for someone)

I will say a couple more things and then I’m going to (try to) bow out: the effort takes time (like a lot of time - how long has everyone’s bad habits been in place, including yours?), only being upset doesn’t work, and if you’re only looking to pass the blame onto someone else (which it sounds like - nothing is your fault, apparently, and it’s all on everyone else for not reacting the way you want) then nothing is ever going to change.

I’m not saying that your wife doesn’t also bear some responsibility here (or even your children), but you’re the one posting here and you’re the one who is (hopefully) listening to some of the advice given, and the only one you can actually change is you.

From what you’ve said I wouldn’t like the way your wife is behaving either. I am probably more in line with what you would want as far as household cleanliness, phone usage, and body modification. But I also know that if I were your wife, and the way you’ve talked *about *her in this thread is similar to the way you talk *to *her, I would be very tempted to throw in the towel and think, “There is just no pleasing this guy, so I’ll do what I want.”
 
I am also trying to figure out how exactly you guys work out your financials, because if I’m interpreting what you said earlier correctly it works like this: you make your salary and spend it on certain household expenses, and she makes her salary and spends it on certain household expenses. But there’s no budget and no accountability, if I’m reading correctly (or you each have your own). Ideally, the money you both make should be pooled together and all household expenses should be agreed upon together. There is no “your money” and “her money” - it should be “our money.” (I think it’s a good idea if each spouse has a bit of fun money to spend pretty much how they choose, but even then expenses like phones or piercings are significant enough or have other dimensions to them that they would be discussed first.)
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This is pretty much the way my family does finances and it works quite well. It comes down to the fact that I am better at managing funds than my husband is. I’m better at planning ahead and figuring out what needs to happen in order to meet our financial goals. For this reason, my salary generally goes to the recurring household bills that must be met every month or week. (mortgage, electric, gas, insurance, babysitting, etc) This is kept in a separate account from our daily expenditures so that we don’t accidentally spend it on Olive Garden instead of keeping the water running and lights on. My husband’s salary goes toward savings and our everyday expenditures that can vary greatly in amount from week to week. That way, he has a much simpler formula to deal with, namely, stay above zero. (The savings are taken out automatically so he doesn’t really deal with that.) We both have cards for that account, however, he is in charge of keeping it afloat. I’m perfectly comfortable with that arrangement because I know that even if we go into overdraft one week in the daily expenditures account, our bills are all covered in a separate account. We do refer to “my account” and “your account”, because that differentiates who is responsible for managing it. That doesn’t mean the money isn’t all “ours” and of course we discuss purchases as we go along.
 
only one you can actually change is you
Well I have changed from someone who gets ill-tempered over these issues to not doing that. Why do you think I come here for advice? I do this instead of continuing my rant.

What shall I change?

Become someone who just puts up with all of this silently only to become more bitter and resentful? Not the way I want to go.
nothing is your fault
I am far from perfect. Mu biggest problem is my temper. Counseling and medicine and Faith have helped quite a bit.
you’ve talked her in this thread is similar to the way you talk I would be very tempted to throw in the towel.
I am only speaking the truth about her. What did I say that was so offensive?
 
We do refer to “my account” and “your account”, because that differentiates who is responsible for managing it. That doesn’t mean the money isn’t all “ours” and of course we discuss purchases as we go along.
Thats how it works here. If there are big ticket items that either of us need to talk about first, that happens. (with some notable exceptions like this piercing thing) She is free to look at what I spend on, me on hers as 99% is on a debit card.
 
This is just my opinion, and reading some of the posts here it’s probably an unpopular one. But I have never quite understood the current tattoo craze. Half the time, I believe people get them on a whim, or simply because their friend has one or what have you. I try to think of it from a Catholic perspective. If they were living in modern times, would a Therese of Lisieux, or a Bernadette Soubirous, a Maria Goretti *or insert your favorite female saint here *ever consider getting one? Can you imagine any one of these three with a naval piercing? Having read extensively about two of the above saints, the answer would be…heck no!

Also, I can’t help but wonder how it will look as you begin to age. You know…that natural process that catches up to all of us eventually. That beautiful eagle or flamingo you have tattooed on your arm will probably begin to look like *roadkill *before it’s all said and done.

Just throwing in my proverbial :twocents:

Peace, Mark
Just wondering, but do you feel the same about cosmetic tattooing? It’s permanent makeup. A lot of people get them who have allergies and can’t wear lipstick, etc. I don’t see anything wrong with it and I’ll get it done to create a false beauty mark (mole) to cover a piercing scar.

Also, many Christians get tattoos, such as bible verses. These verses mean a lot to the person getting them - such as when they became a Christian and how that particular verse brought them to Christ.

My opinion is that some tattoos, if done tastefully, can be beautiful. But I don’t have any myself.
 
Thanks All for the replies.

To clarify; I don’t remember explicitly “forbidding” them, but I was never asked and given the opportunity to “forbid”. But they certainly knew I did not like anything other than ear piercings…The fact they tried to hide these piercings from me attests to that.

Yes I did chew my wife out and gave many of the objections raised here. she said absolutely nothing and today pretended like nothing happended. I think my wife is too permissive. This is not the first time she has done things behind my back. the last major incident was having grandpa buy the kids iphones behind my back even though I disapproved. I think the social media aspect of them gives then access to too much garbage and is turning one of my kids into a narcissist. I was only ok with just a flip phone.
Imagine my delight when looking thru my 12 yr olds instagram thread I see a link to a video talking about oral sex.

I am completely ignored, and when I do blow up its not good and am told to leave the house. We almost separated over my temper. I am not sure what to do with this repeated insolence. I feel I am just an ATM machine. Wasn’t an issue when they were younger as we didn’t face these “grown up” issues. Seems I am growing more in the faith while the kids and wife are rolling there eyes over it.

Oh well what do you do? Next time the wife needs a few dollars to carry her over on the expenses she takes care of, I feel like stating since you have money for piercings you should have enough money.
Honestly, you need to stop complaining to this forum, discuss these issues with your wife, and maybe stop trying to control everything with a “my way or the highway” death-grip. The tighter you squeeze the more is going to slip through your fingers.

As to the financial aspect, I find it troubling when a married couple has his and hers finances. Each paying for some of the expenses, as if they were roommates. In my opinion it discourages financial discussion and projects a lack of trust from at least one, if not both parties, which can become a major stress point for a marriage (and it seems like that’s the case for you and your wife).

I say again, your wife is the one you should be (calmly) discussing these issues with.
 
Of course you have a right to be upset. Do you have any doubt whether your wife would even *wonder *if she had a right to be upset when she made it clear she was strenuously opposed to something and yet you went off with the children and did it behind her back, anyway? And “for fun” yet? Is she saying that giving your wishes a big fat strawberry and teaching your three daughters to do the same is her idea of a good time?

I would be livid if my husband was so flippant about that level of disrespect for my feelings. I’d also ask her what she will do when her daughters go off and do something like that against her wishes.

I say this as someone who holds the “it is easier to get forgiveness than permission” principle as a particular pet peeve. It is like committing a sin with the plan of confessing the sin, having weighed the “penance” as “worth it” in advance. When someone willfully does something behind my back with the idea that I’ll be forced to forgive them later, it really rankles me. It is one of the most disrespectful, disloyal, and–let me be really blunt–underhanded attitudes someone can have. It is a direct attack on my trust, too, because I know that turning my back is all it takes for my wishes to be kicked unceremoniously into a corner.
^^^^ this this this! I totally agree and my exact thoughts on the subject.
 
Honestly, you need to stop complaining to this forum, discuss these issues with your wife, and maybe stop trying to control everything with a “my way or the highway” death-grip. The tighter you squeeze the more is going to slip through your fingers.
Well I would have compromised with the phone issue. For the piercings, once 18 I would leave it up to them.

Thinking of my way or the highway, my Dad was “Da Boss” to the point it was unhealthy.
I certainly dont want to be that way. But some respect would be appreciated.
As to the financial aspect, I find it troubling when a married couple has his and hers finances. Each paying for some of the expenses, as if they were roommates. In my opinion it discourages financial discussion and projects a lack of trust from at least one, if not both parties, which can become a major stress point for a marriage (and it seems like that’s the case for you and your wife).
Well actually, money isnt a big deal with us, yes its short, and yes sometimes I think she spends on things I think are frivolous, but I’m not perfect either. Bottom line is the bills get paid and no one is neglected because of money issues.
I say again, your wife is the one you should be (calmly) discussing these issues with.
Yes I will.
 
BTW in regards to my “temper” she has no problem asking for the “heavy” in me to come out and play when the kids don’t listen to her…
Which becomes less effective as she undermines your authority as in this instance- doing something with the kids they all know you don’t approve of, or allowing someone else to pay for iPhones they know you don’t approve of–

…time to explain to her that she’s taught the kids that they don’t have to listen to their parents, only figure out how to get around them.

As for punishments, not knowing your kids I have no idea what would be effective in getting their attention. Every kid’s different and the punishment needs to be aligned with what gets that kid to modify their behavior. You’ve mentioned some punishments and some rewards- but they don’t seem to be generating the appropriate change. My mom’s rule for cleaning the house- she asked you twice to clean up something of yours. Than it went in the trash or was donated. If you’d wanted it- you should have cleaned it up. But no method is effective if not applied consistently and with full support of both parents.

I’m easier on my kids- everything in the common areas needs to be cleaned up- their rooms can be messy, but no food articles (plates, wrappers, etc.). My eldest responded very well to the taking away of electronic devices-- only had to do it a couple of times (cell phone/laptop/ipod/stereo- router disconnect from internet access), after that it was simply the threat of that as a consequence and I had her complete attention and cooperation, although with verbal objections (which would be duly noted and entered in the record to be addressed at some future time after careful consideration…)

For your own sanity, you may want to consider a housecleaner twice a month or so. Cheaper than a separation and easier on your kids- of course, it will cut down on the money you can spend on them-- but if they won’t clean up, and no one wants you yelling, then…

As others have said, counseling sounds necessary to get both of you on the same page to address a ‘your’ in the plural sense, not a her or him problem. Perhaps even family counseling.
 
Which becomes less effective as she undermines your authority as in this instance- doing something with the kids they all know you don’t approve of, or allowing someone else to pay for iPhones they know you don’t approve of–

…time to explain to her that she’s taught the kids that they don’t have to listen to their parents, only figure out how to get around them.

As for punishments, not knowing your kids I have no idea what would be effective in getting their attention. Every kid’s different and the punishment needs to be aligned with what gets that kid to modify their behavior. You’ve mentioned some punishments and some rewards- but they don’t seem to be generating the appropriate change. My mom’s rule for cleaning the house- she asked you twice to clean up something of yours. Than it went in the trash or was donated. If you’d wanted it- you should have cleaned it up. But no method is effective if not applied consistently and with full support of both parents.

I’m easier on my kids- everything in the common areas needs to be cleaned up- their rooms can be messy, but no food articles (plates, wrappers, etc.). My eldest responded very well to the taking away of electronic devices-- only had to do it a couple of times (cell phone/laptop/ipod/stereo- router disconnect from internet access), after that it was simply the threat of that as a consequence and I had her complete attention and cooperation, although with verbal objections (which would be duly noted and entered in the record to be addressed at some future time after careful consideration…)

For your own sanity, you may want to consider a housecleaner twice a month or so. Cheaper than a separation and easier on your kids- of course, it will cut down on the money you can spend on them-- but if they won’t clean up, and no one wants you yelling, then…

As others have said, counseling sounds necessary to get both of you on the same page to address a ‘your’ in the plural sense, not a her or him problem. Perhaps even family counseling.
I dont have a problem with messy rooms except for the dirty dishes…

I could afford a cleaner, but would be galled to see a housecleaner vaccuming under the kids feet while they watch the boob tube and play on their phones.

If there is one thing the iphone is good for its its taking away as punishment. Once when my 12 yr old was extremely disprespectful to me, to the point of shoving me. I took her iphone away from her…Wife supported this BTW…Oh my the reaction!..banging her head up against the wall all night, she was to be found in her chair in her darkened room in a fetal-like position all the next day. Like I said I think these things can be poison to kids…but I have to go along or I’m the bad guy who needs to change…🤷
Takes selfies of herself over and over…just obsessive. Seesm a bit too wordly allready. I’m really worried how the 12 yr is going to turn out these next few years. Wife doesnt seem too concerned. I think her getting a piercing was particulary bad for her.
 
Yes I did chew my wife out and gave many of the objections raised here. she said absolutely nothing and today pretended like nothing happended. I think my wife is too permissive. This is not the first time she has done things behind my back. the last major incident was having grandpa buy the kids iphones behind my back even though I disapproved…
The strategy of simply not listening to complaints is called “stonewalling.”
…BTW in regards to my “temper” she has no problem asking for the “heavy” in me to come out and play when the kids don’t listen to her…
That’s a bit hypocritical, but according to human nature.

As nearly as I can tell, you could use some counselling concerning how to complain, how to think about some particular issue so you can come to a compromise you can live with later–because of course an adult complaining to another adult should not expect that he or she will get everything they want every time–and how to identify and head off *your wife’s *unhealthy strategies when you two have a difference of opinion.

I would suggest you go to a library and see what books John Gottman et al have on the shelves concerning communication strategies. His area of research has been contrasting the communication styles of couples who divorce with those who stay together. All the couples he studies argue or have differences of opinion, but the ones who stick together have strategies that minimize relationship damage during disputes and make repairs after it is all over.

When you complain and argue in a way that minimizes damage to the other person and seeks to repair the damage that is done, you build loyalty. You build a desire in the other person to look out for you, too. You put yourself on what I’d call their “conscience radar.” It is harder to wrong someone you want to please than it is to wrong someone you can rationalize “deserves it.” For instance, if your wife doesn’t have evidence that you listen to her, it is easier for her to rationalize it when she blows off what you want behind your back.

These books have a lot of examples of how people change their conversational style in order to have their conversational partner retreat from discussing the issue at hand into name-calling, personal criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling, strategies which are relationship killers.

I think if you learn the communication habits of couples that stay together, your wife will have less ability to rationalize and more of a desire to please you. You, meanwhile, will be better able to identify when one or both of you is using a counterproductive tactic that ultimately hurts your marriage and keeps a compromise from being reached. You may as well try it; it won’t cost you anything.

Do not forget that you also have relationships with your girls. You can tell them that when they go and do something with their mother that they know you wouldn’t like and then hide it from you, it hurts your feelings. They need to know that you’re not a policeman, but their father who looks out for them, loves them, and doesn’t want to be treated as if you have money to give out but no feelings to share. You may want to talk with them about having “fun” outings with them. Were I you, I would start having dates with your daughters, in addition to attending whatever recitals or games or what have you that they have. They are far less likely to have an unhealthy desire to find a man to please if they have a close and healthy relationship with you in which you have taught them to stick up for themselves and know that they are too valuable to be pushed around. Then treat your wife the way you expect your daughters’ boyfriends ought to treat them–that is, work things out using communication and no intimidation.

They say it is impossible to “not” do something. You can’t comply with “don’t think of elephants.” What you do is to make goals that are incompatible with what you don’t want to do. If you don’t want to think about elephants, you tell yourself something like “think of predators.” You cannot comply with “don’t be like Dad.” You can comply with “be the husband I want my daughters to have.” What they see in you is what they will look for in a man.

I would also not say “don’t dress like a tramp.” I’d say, “Be willing to dress modestly as a way to show your quality–Ferraris are not given bumper stickers and fuzzy dice. You, my dear, are a Ferrari, a thing of beauty. You have far more danger of diminishing your beauty than ever adding to it, so show that you are secure in your sense of personal beauty. Go for quality, yes, but don’t overdo it. Guys who want to take advantage of women look for those who are trying too hard to impress, because they think you won’t look out for your own interests. Guys who want a strong woman look for one who takes care of herself but doesn’t try too hard to impress.”

They’re probably going to keep the navel rings. There is no sin in them, per se. You are free to have your opinion about them, but let that one go with the premise that you hope they’ll be more careful about your feelings in the future. I would say, “I’ll let you keep them because your mother said yes”–here you are showing that you decided to be in solidarity with their mom, even though you could have theoretically insisted the navel rings had to go–“but I hope you’ll think more about my feelings, too, the next time you have a decision like this. I would think more of you if you had at least tried to persuade me, instead of going behind my back.” (this shows that what you really want is a discussion and to be included in decision-making, not absolute power to dictate everything to everybody else in the family.)
 
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