Piercings - out of line?

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I dont have a problem with messy rooms except for the dirty dishes…

I could afford a cleaner, but would be galled to see a housecleaner vaccuming under the kids feet while they watch the boob tube and play on their phones.

If there is one thing the iphone is good for its its taking away as punishment. Once when my 12 yr old was extremely disprespectful to me, to the point of shoving me. I took her iphone away from her…Wife supported this BTW…Oh my the reaction!..banging her head up against the wall all night, she was to be found in her chair in her darkened room in a fetal-like position all the next day. Like I said I think these things can be poison to kids…but I have to go along or I’m the bad guy who needs to change…🤷
Takes selfies of herself over and over…just obsessive. Seesm a bit too wordly allready. I’m really worried how the 12 yr is going to turn out these next few years. Wife doesnt seem too concerned. I think her getting a piercing was particulary bad for her.
If the loss of a device rendered my child literally beating her head against the wall and curled up in fetal position there is no way I would give it back to her. That’s just sick! I hope you are exhaggerating for effect! Even if it is an effective currency for discipline, no one should be acting that way over a device. It’s not healthy. I mean, people don’t tell their kids they can have their heroine as long as they do the dishes, or they can keep their porn as long as they’re nice to their brother.
 
If the loss of a device rendered my child literally beating her head against the wall and curled up in fetal position there is no way I would give it back to her. That’s just sick! I hope you are exhaggerating for effect! Even if it is an effective currency for discipline, no one should be acting that way over a device. It’s not healthy. I mean, people don’t tell their kids they can have their heroine as long as they do the dishes, or they can keep their porn as long as they’re nice to their brother.
Sorry I wish I was exaggerating. I tried to tell the Wife this indicated a unhealthy relationship with the device, but I get blown off.
 
Sorry I wish I was exaggerating. I tried to tell the Wife this indicated a unhealthy relationship with the device, but I get blown off.
I don’t know what to say to that. You have to be on the same page with your wife, but if I found myself in that situation, I would take the phone and give the kid a cello or a ball, or take her to the soup kitchen, or something! Aside from the fact that a phone is a thing, the communication on a phone is superficial at best. A person shouldn’t be grieving over superficial online relationships the way they would for healthy attatchments to their family and real close friends. This is a really common problem for adults, so I think one should be really wary about giving free, unlimited access to online communication to a child that young. Plus, there’s the concerns with porn, sexting, cyber bullying, cyber stalking, etc. I can understand giving a child a simple phone so they can communicate with people conveniently in an age where instant communication is expected and demanded, but those smart phones are dangerous for kids at that age.
 
Sorry I wish I was exaggerating. I tried to tell the Wife this indicated a unhealthy relationship with the device, but I get blown off.
It is time for “Mom has Mom’s rules, and I’ve decided I’m going to be good with that, but I have my rules, too, and I expect her to respect mine as much as I respect hers. When I’m here, you’re going to be off this device for X hours a day.”

As for your wife, you might tell her that taking away an electronic distraction is not child abuse. If she doesn’t like your rules, then tell her it is time to have a discussion and agree on rules that you are both willing to enforce. Otherwise, the best you can do is to let the other one have their own autonomous authority that you do not fight with. You can do “good cop/bad cop,” it is the oldest routine in the world, but you do have to be on the same force and be partners in your public service.

BTW, the beating her head against the wall and the fetal position was a manipulative tactic that you did well to ignore. Her drama skills (or lack of them) should not get her a packed house! I would go so far as, “You are twelve years old. If you are going to have a tantrum, go find somewhere to have it in private. Otherwise, use words, and quit acting as if you are still in preschool.” Accepting a punishment without drama or with some show of contrition ought to net a lesser punishment, whereas I would let her know that future tantrums will increase the length of the sentence. (Always keep something back, so you can make the punishment worse if they decide to add on more crimes.)
 
I don’t know what to say to that. You have to be on the same page with your wife, but if I found myself in that situation, I would take the phone and give the kid a cello or a ball, or take her to the soup kitchen, or something! Aside from the fact that a phone is a thing, the communication on a phone is superficial at best. A person shouldn’t be grieving over superficial online relationships the way they would for healthy attatchments to their family and real close friends. This is a really common problem for adults, so I think one should be really wary about giving free, unlimited access to online communication to a child that young. Plus, there’s the concerns with porn, sexting, cyber bullying, cyber stalking, etc. I can understand giving a child a simple phone so they can communicate with people conveniently in an age where instant communication is expected and demanded, but those smart phones are dangerous for kids at that age.
Preschool manipulative tactics warrant a preschool timeline on consequences.

Since the father has lost the battle on the phones, he and his wife ought to agree on total and unlimited access to the phones at all times. The children should be given to know that they have no expectation of phone privacy until they are paying for their own phones and have reached the age where their parents can’t be legally held responsible for their behavior. Locking your parents out of your phone before you are 18 will result in the phone being taken away. Then read the texts once in awhile.
 
Well thanks for all the advice everyone. Hope I can use it constructively. 👍
 

I could afford a cleaner, but would be galled to see a housecleaner vaccuming under the kids feet while they watch the boob tube and play on their phones.

If there is one thing the iphone is good for its its taking away as punishment. Once when my 12 yr old was extremely disprespectful to me, to the point of shoving me. I took her iphone away from her…Wife supported this BTW…
But has taking away the phone resulted in her being more respectful? Has that consequence gotten her to modify her behavior? Don’t neglect rewarding good behavior-- if she’s on a streak of being respectful, do something fun with her and let her know because she’s more fun to be around with that respect.

Understand about the frustration of a cleaner when the kids are old enough that it shouldn’t be necessary. Realize, it’s for you to be calmer, not have the frustration of mess in public areas, lower the chance of blowing up over what in 10 years when the kids are gone may seem trivial. It’s a thing you can control to make other things less bothersome. You don’t have to have the cleaner do the kids rooms-- leave those as their responsibility. Reward or consequences if things aren’t done— if you don’t have time to do X responsibility, you don’t have time to be on the phone- computer-outing etc.
 
But has taking away the phone resulted in her being more respectful? Has that consequence gotten her to modify her behavior? Don’t neglect rewarding good behavior-- if she’s on a streak of being respectful, do something fun with her and let her know because she’s more fun to be around with that respect.
Yes she has been better behaved, but only does so out of fear of losing her phone, not because she has turned a new leaf.
Realize, it’s for you to be calmer, not have the frustration of mess in public areas.
Yes I dont have the conniptionfits like I used to over it for the sake of maintaining a calm environment, but still grates me.
You don’t have to have the cleaner do the kids rooms-- leave those as their responsibility.
Yes I dont bother about their rooms except for the eating/dirty dishes. They can mess up the room to their hearts content…see I’m not being unreasonable! 😃

You know what gets them all in a tizzy, at least two of them anyway, when I start taking pictures of the mess… I just say I am taking them for “memories”…they have a cow…and start cleaning immediatly. I only did that a few times as it really stirs up the hornets nest…:D. The 12 yr old to shoved me over that and not too long after came the iphone confiscation.
 
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Your wife ought to obey you in these things - it can often be a mortal sin for a wife to disobey her husband if what he expects is reasonable. For a wife to go against her husband’s reasonable wishes in such a serious matter and in front of her children is very bad example and definitely grave matter. Wives must make obedience easy for children by setting an example of it themselves - the wife’s pride often leads to rebellious children and to put it right she must not say ‘Do as I say and not as I do’, still less 'I don’t have to obey my husband, I am an adult’ - making it seem to her children as if obedience is a childish thing to be shunned by grown-ups; She must humble herself and admit her fault and set very good example from then on.

It sounds as if you have big problems in your family and that this is just a sign of them. The question you must ask is how you can fix them.
The wife needs to be respectful of her husband’s wishes, as he needs to be of hers. Clearly, she was not, and this needs to be addressed.

However, your advice is is problematic, particularly in a household with daughters. It can lead them to believe that, as adults, their husbands are somehow ‘in charge,’ rather than equals, and should be obeyed rather than respected.
 
But has taking away the phone resulted in her being more respectful? Has that consequence gotten her to modify her behavior? Don’t neglect rewarding good behavior-- if she’s on a streak of being respectful, do something fun with her and let her know because she’s more fun to be around with that respect.
There aren’t a lot of children who obey their parents when they don’t feel like it or contain their emotional outbursts because they are so eager to please their parents or just like them too much. Their friends don’t even get that kind of treatment.

Taking pictures is kind of funny, actually. If you don’t post them in public to shame her, I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Really, I’d just add on doing things with each of them–and do make it one-on-one time–simply because you enjoy their company, and put those outings beyond removal by punishment. You’ll be watching them get married before you know it. Corner them into some good memories with you. Girls and young women who have dads who insist on enjoying them in spite of the tensions treasure that. It is something that carries over after they leave, too. Those outings will also build some loyalty that will make it harder to defy you or rationalize treating you as if you don’t care about them.
 
Yes I have not posted the pics…they don’t leave the camera…nor have I threatened too…But cant say I never thought about it.
Really, I’d just add on doing things with each of them–and do make it one-on-one time–simply because you enjoy their company, and put those outings beyond removal by punishment. You’ll be watching them get married before you know it. Corner them into some good memories with you. Girls and young women who have dads who insist on enjoying them in spite of the tensions treasure that. It is something that carries over after they leave, too. Those outings will also build some loyalty that will make it harder to defy you or rationalize treating you as if you don’t care about them.
Actually I have started a practice of once a month taking just one out to dinner with me at our favorite restaurant. One on One time is important.

They are all out tonight, haven’t had the chance to speak. But letting me “vent” here has certainly helped my mood.
 
Really, I’d just add on doing things with each of them–and do make it one-on-one time–simply because you enjoy their company, and put those outings beyond removal by punishment. You’ll be watching them get married before you know it. Corner them into some good memories with you. Girls and young women who have dads who insist on enjoying them in spite of the tensions treasure that. It is something that carries over after they leave, too. Those outings will also build some loyalty that will make it harder to defy you or rationalize treating you as if you don’t care about them.
this is the most important advice on the thread. Stay close to your daughters, because before you know it, the time will be gone.

My main concern about the belly piercings is, if you get that done at 12 or 13, what do you do for an encore? Because kids like to up the ante every so often,
I made a big deal out of allowing my daughter to get her ears pierced, and finally allowed her to – I think she was 16. Then she wanted a nose piercing, and I let her get a small stud at 17. Now she’s 18 and making her own choices, but at least she didn’t get a running start at too young an age.

However, the important thing is to build and keep a good relationship with them. I still remember the times my dad let me hang out with him while he was working – painting – I can still smell the paint, fifty some years ago. Immensely important times.
 
So I “discover” that my wife and three daughters had a “fun time together” and got themselves belly piercings…daughters are 12,13 and 15.

They knew I don’t like piercings other than the ear and this was the first time there are such anywhere else.

Don’t like 'em, think they are trashy, etc.

Do I have a right to be PO’d?
No, I think you have a right to be mad about it. Your wife went out and did something with your daughters that she knows you disapprove of. I also question why a 12 year old would want a navel piercing. That’s quite odd.

I’m not against tattoos and piercings and am actually a big fan of body art, though. I have stretched lobes and my septum and lip pierced. My mom wasn’t too happy with the ear stretching at first but I was pretty much of legal age when I started doing it. I did have my eyebrow pierced at 12 and that was a mistake. I have a lovely gouge mark where it used to be now. Lol.
 
I also question why a 12 year old would want a navel piercing. That’s quite odd.
She’s 12 yrs old going on to a 16 yr old know it all…Shes the biggest challenge and my wife would agree. That’s why giving her the iphone was like throwing gasoline on the fire IMHO…
 
I would also not say “don’t dress like a tramp.” I’d say, “Be willing to dress modestly as a way to show your quality–Ferraris are not given bumper stickers and fuzzy dice. You, my dear, are a Ferrari, a thing of beauty. You have far more danger of diminishing your beauty than ever adding to it, so show that you are secure in your sense of personal beauty. Go for quality, yes, but don’t overdo it. Guys who want to take advantage of women look for those who are trying too hard to impress, because they think you won’t look out for your own interests. Guys who want a strong woman look for one who takes care of herself but doesn’t try too hard to impress.”
One way to approach dress is to point out that how we dress sends a message about ourselves. What we emphasize in our look indicates to others what we feel is important about ourselves and what we want noticed, at least, that will often be how it is taken.

It’s ingrained and can’t be helped. Regardless of what one thinks about not judging others by their appearance-- we are descendants of those who ran when something didn’t look right instead of waiting.

If they choose to dress in a way that emphasizes their sexuality, folks will not just notice but will act as if that was the message they wanted to send. As if that’s what they thought was most important about themselves and want noticed and acted upon. Calling it fair or unfair is beside the point-- that’s the reality. The type to pick up on the message aren’t necessarily the ones you’d particularly want responding.

Dress for success. Dress not for the job you want, but the job you want to have. Dress for an interview -consistent with, but a little better, than you see the folks in the company dressing. You’ve heard all that right? It’s not just about sexuality, it’s much, much broader. Lawyers dress a certain way to invoke confidence in their clients, show respect to the court, and be taken seriously by the judges. Most courts have a dress code-- break it and it’s taken as a big message that you don’t know what you’re doing-- have no understanding of even the basics- you don’t fit in. Financial advisers dress conservatively but well- to gain confidence and trust of clients. To appear as if they can manage money and earn well on their own- but aren’t going to embezzle it. Uniforms for LEOs are about communicating a sense of authority and identity.

Con men understand this well-- they are very good at dressing for the role they’re portraying. Sister once dated a guy faking being an Air Force officer- had flight suits and actually hung out at the pool in them if he’d ‘just gotten back from the base’.

Car salesmen understand it also. Successful ones are good at sizing folks up and figuring out what they can afford.

When your daughters dress- what are they saying is important about themselves? Do they dress in a way that they respect themselves and expect other to respect them as well? Again- not necessarily about sex at all-- if I go out without brushing my hair, shaving, crumpled or dirty, clothes and clothing inappropriate for the place/occasion it communicates a lot about my attitude towards myself and awareness of others likely perceptions-- i.e. social awareness.

(Note- there are social norms which change regarding modesty. In hot, humid climates the norm of wearing shorts and a tank top can be as much about first comfort AND conforming with social expectations of dress and nothing regarding sexuality. It wouldn’t stand out as emphasizing anything in that regard).
 
Sadly, I don’t have any great words of wisdom, but I pray that you and your wife are able to find common ground in parenting your children.

Kids know how to manipulate the parents when they realize that they aren’t on the same team.

That’s one of the big reasons why my dad ended up divorcing my stepmom. There was no consistency to the rules and how they’d be enforced and who’d enforce what…as a kid, it was very confusing.

Also, it’s not teaching a woman to be subservient if she has a strong dad telling her what’s right from wrong. Boundaries are a good thing and some kids naturally fight them more than others. Don’t be a push-over. Your daughter will thank you in 20 years. You cared enough to say “Hell, no!” Not “oh well, what ever you want to do, dear…”

I had the second type of dad. I still love him, but I don’t have a lot of respect for how he parented me.
 
I also question why a 12 year old would want a navel piercing. That’s quite odd.
The youngest of three girls very often either wants to be older than her sisters, wants to be a baby forever, or both. Any of us might want that, of course, but the youngest with two older sisters ahead of her is particularly vulnerable to that temptation, particularly if she has a “firecracker” temperament.

I call the “firecracker” temperament one of the “border collie” temperaments. Give that person something to keep them busy and make them feel important, and they can’t be matched. Let them get bored, though, and it is one uh-oh after another. :eek:
 
The wife needs to be respectful of her husband’s wishes, as he needs to be of hers. Clearly, she was not, and this needs to be addressed.

However, your advice is is problematic, particularly in a household with daughters. It can lead them to believe that, as adults, their husbands are somehow ‘in charge,’ rather than equals, and should be obeyed rather than respected.
As adults, their husbands will be, or ought to be, in charge. Men and women are equal in and of themselves but the husband has a higher position in the family and ultimately he is the head of the family. This is not just a cultural thing that can rightly change from time to time and from place to place, it is a moral law. The wife must both respect and obey her husband but the husband is only bound to respect his wife.
 
As adults, their husbands will be, or ought to be, in charge. Men and women are equal in and of themselves but the husband has a higher position in the family and ultimately he is the head of the family. This is not just a cultural thing that can rightly change from time to time and from place to place, it is a moral law. The wife must both respect and obey her husband but the husband is only bound to respect his wife.
No woman should be treated as an additional child.

The Church teaches and encourages mutual submission.

The word “obey” is a dangerous term to sling around as it puts women in very precarious situations…whether reasonable or unreasonable.

A husband must listen to his wife. She posses as wisdom of her own and should never be dismissed.

She is equal in dignity and should demand respect and love from her husband every single day.
He should demand the same from her.

I believe a wife has certain rights that should be respected. Rights when it comes to her body and her dignity.
Something that a lot of men cannot or will not relate to…especially those who are not married and cannot fathom what we go through.

I speak as a women who loves and respects her husband…but would never “obey” him…especially if he is wrong.
 
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