Pill and abortion

[By_His_Mercy]

Conclusion:

Sorry for the long posts!!

Rach620,

Sorry I haven’t had time to digest all of your posts! Thanks for the info! We need to compile the truth here. Then we can use it elsewhere.

I’ll get back…

-BHM

 

[By_His_Mercy]

What D is arguing is that these risks NEVER occur because breakthrough ovulation also causes the release of all of the hormones and hormonal changes in the endometrium to sustain a pregnancy. Since she never linked the journal article she is citing (probably selectively!), there is no way for us to find out how this claim is medically or scientifically substantiated, since it seems to me very difficult indeed to track endometrial changes in women experiencing breakthrough ovulation on the pill.

Yes, I’m confused about that also. I think D is trying to say the big surge of hormones from this breakthrough ovulation will dwarf any little hormonal changes from the pill. But the morning-after pill produces such a huge surge of hormones. We’re still talking about estrogen and progesterone, right? And even Dr. Trussell (D’s “source”) says that the morning-after pill works to prevent implantation! Seriously!! So there’s a lot more to the picture than what’s being presented.

Also, don’t we already know that using the pill reduces the amount of endometrium that is flushed out? So that little surge of hormones from the pill didn’t produce a thicker endometrium, and now, supposedly, another surge after ovulation would go the other way? Maybe the “trigger” for a thicker endometrium is indeed a surge of hormones, but this happend prematurely when the pill was taken, and therefore another surge after ovulation might not work like it would normally. Or maybe the surge of hormones at ovulation works in conjunction with other factors and hormones that are already out of whack due to the pill.

This whole thing seems way more complicated that what’s being presented over there.

-BHM

 

[By_His_Mercy]

(3) A postimplantation effect could result from alteration of the endometrium not sufficient to prevent implantation but unfavorable for maintenance of the pregnancy

Concerning this…there’s another factor. I read that the pill can shorten the “luteral phase”…the time between ovulation and the period. So before the embryo implants…the period comes earlier than usual…and it’s all flushed out. I’m pretty sure I saw this when I was reading about the normal bcp as well as the “plan-B” pill. Anyway, so not only is the endometrium affected…it stays around for a shorter amount of time. This factor alone could account for abortions…totally separate from any effects of endometrial thickness issues.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

More on the reasons for increased ectopic pregnancy risks:

Integrins have also been identified in the fallopian tube…As discussed earlier, one of the postulated actions of the OCs is a slowing of tubal peristalsis (via smooth muscle relaxation)70; therefore, a reduction in tubal peristalsis that is associated with an upregulation of the V3 integrin in the epithelium of the fallopian tube could theoretically lead to an increased risk of ectopic pregnancies in women taking OCs

Yes, there have been five studies that measured an increased ration of ectopic pregancies to uterine ones.

From here…
epm.org/artman2/publish/prolife_birth_control_pill/Prolife_Ob_Gyn_s_January_1998_Statement.shtml

However, Dr. Larimore pointed out something highly significant–that published data from all of the studies dealing with this issue indicate that the ratio of extrauterine to intrauterine pregnancies among Pill-takers significantly exceeds that of non-Pill-takers. The five studies cited by Dr. Larimore show an increased risk of ectopic pregnancies in Pill takers who get pregnant is 70% to 1390% higher than non-Pill takers who get pregnant.

[The respective rates of increase in the five studies are 70%, 80%, 330%, 350% and 1390%. The studies, cited by Dr. Larimore in his email, are as follows:

(1) “A multinational case-control study of ectopic pregnancy,” *Clin Reprod Fertil

1985;3:131-143;
(2) Mol BWJ, Ankum WM, Bossuyt PMM, and Van der Veen F, “Contraception and the risk of ectopic pregnancy: a meta analysis,” Contraception 1995;52:337-341;
(3) Job-Spira N, Fernandez H, Coste J, Papiernik E, Spira A, “Risk of Chlamydia PID and oral contraceptives,” *J Am Med Assoc *1990;264:2072-4;
(4) Thorburn J, Berntsson C, Philipson M, Lindbolm B, “Background factors of ectopic pregnancy: Frequency distribution in a case-control study,” *Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol *1986;23:321-331;
(5) Coste J, Job-Spira N, Fernandez H, Papiernik E, Spira A, “Risk factors for ectopic pregnancy: a case-control study in France, with special focus on infectious factors,” Am J Epidemiol 1991;133:839-49.]
</I 1991;133:839-49.]>
What accounts for the Pill inhibiting intrauterine pregnancies at a disproportionately greater ratio than it inhibits extrauterine pregnancies? Dr. Larimore, who is a member of Focus on the Family’s Physicians Resource Council, believes the most likely explanation is that while the Pill does nothing to prevent a newly-conceived child from implanting in the wrong place (i.e. anywhere besides the endometrium) it may sometimes do something to prevent him from implanting in the right place (i.e. the endometrium).

So here, we’re assuming ovulation occurred…we’re looking at actual pregnancies. The pill might be causing more ectopic implantations (more deaths…less get a chance to make it to the uterus), or might be causing less implantations from the uterus itself…explaining the rise in the percentage of ectopic implantations. Or both. Something has to explain the increased percentage of extra-uterine implantations.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

D argues that an ovulatory pill cycle will immediately cause other hormonal and endometrial changes that will make the uterine environment similar to a non-pill user.

The writers of this article anticipated that objection, and responded:

If breakthrough ovulation occurs while using the COC, then to some extent ovarian and blastocyst steroidogenesis could theoretically “turn on” the endometrium, causing it to normalize prior to implantation in the ovulatory cycle. However, after discontinuing use of COCs, it usually takes several cycles for a woman’s menstrual flow to approach the volume of women who have not taken hormonal contraception,71 suggesting that the endometrium is slow to recover from its COC-induced atrophy

Very interesting! A “COC-induced atrophy” has taken place, which has a long recovery time. Looks like trouble to me.

Btw, is “COC” the same as “OC”?

 

[By_His_Mercy]

I’m bowing out of the discussion there, I am getting to upset and anger is filling inside me. I will pray for strength for us and for them also. Be back later

I’ll pray too. I wouldn’t be surprised if many over there are on the pill. There seems to be some raw nerves with this issue.

 

[Rach620]

Yes, I’m confused about that also. I think D is trying to say the big surge of hormones from this breakthrough ovulation will dwarf any little hormonal changes from the pill. But the morning-after pill produces such a huge surge of hormones. We’re still talking about estrogen and progesterone, right? And even Dr. Trussell (D’s “source”) says that the morning-after pill works to prevent implantation! Seriously!! So there’s a lot more to the picture than what’s being presented.

It doesn’t make sense to argue that the changes in the endometrium/female endocrine system caused by the pill are “minimal”–that displays both a misunderstanding of how the pill works, and a misunderstandings of the intricacies of the female hormone system and fertility cycle. Small vitamin or mineral deficiencies in a woman’s diet, and relatively minimal hormonal imbalances (such as progesterone deficiency) can have negative consequences when a woman is trying to conceive or sustain a pregnancy. As any woman who has struggled with infertility can tell you, our reproductive systems aren’t blunt, purpose-built machines, but intricate systems that can be thrown off-kilter, in my experience, without too much effort on our part.

The hormones in the pill (unnaturally high levels of estrogen, whether it is a “low-dose” pill form or not, or a “progestin-only version”) totally interrupt and circumvent this natural cycle. It has commonly been explained that the pill causes a woman’s body to “think” she is pregnant, by causing her to have irregularly high levels of both estrogen and progesterone. But in a normal cycle, each of these hormones works differently and at different times to both stimulate the release of an egg AND build up the thickness of the endometrium. Neither one of them does it alone, nor does it ever take place quickly. To say that if breakthrough ovulation occurs, the hormone environment will be entirely different is misleading, as women will continue to take the pill, thereby ingesting the synthetic hormones which will of course interrupt her natural cycle.

Also, don’t we already know that using the pill reduces the amount of endometrium that is flushed out?

Yes, doctors routinely will prescribe the pill to women who have heavy periods, because it comes in and restricts the development of the endometrium–and therefore what is expelled in a period. In reality, a pill cycle is not a “real cycle” at all, but it is a convenient quick-“fix” way of addressing female problems.

So that little surge of hormones from the pill didn’t produce a thicker endometrium, and now, supposedly, another surge after ovulation would go the other way? Maybe the “trigger” for a thicker endometrium is indeed a surge of hormones, but this happend prematurely when the pill was taken, and therefore another surge after ovulation might not work like it would normally. Or maybe the surge of hormones at ovulation works in conjunction with other factors and hormones that are already out of whack due to the pill.

Here is an image of a typical woman’s fertility cycle (non-pill):

As you can see from the graph, while the endometrium is being built up during the pre-ovulation phase of the cycle, it really starts to “beef up” after ovulation. D’s argument is that the release of the follicle stimulating hormone as well as the luteinizing hormone in ovulatory pill cycles (since these two hormones cause ovulation) also are the hormones which cause the development of the endometrium.

But I and the many other women who have suffered from progesterone deficiency can tell you that no doctor has ever told us that these hormones, which alone cause the maturation of the egg, are going to ensure a healthy environment for a newly-conceived baby to implant. The hormone which is really causing the buildup of the endometrium, as it surges after ovulation, is progesterone. The hormones of the pill simply don’t allow this surge, and many forms contain only estrogen. Estrogen counteracts progesterone in a woman’s body. The estrogen in the pill does NOT allow for this normal surge of progesterone, which many doctors call “the pregnancy hormone”!

This whole thing seems way more complicated that what’s being presented over there.

It certainly is. But I’ll stand by what I said before, and also what you said: as long as even the slightest chance that our chosen method of birth control is going to cause the death of a very young pre-born child, we cannot, as pro-life people, choose that method in good conscience. We must err on the side of life.

As a sidenote, in googling stuff to do research for this post, I found out that D has been quoting a BLOG from the Life Training Institute for her “scientific proof”. This is, of course, against CARM rules, but moreover, it is clearly not the “scientific proof” she is requiring of pro-lifers: it was not written by a doctor. No wonder she hasn’t been linking her sources!

 

[Rach620]

Concerning this…there’s another factor. I read that the pill can shorten the “luteral phase”…the time between ovulation and the period. So before the embryo implants…the period comes earlier than usual…and it’s all flushed out. I’m pretty sure I saw this when I was reading about the normal bcp as well as the “plan-B” pill. Anyway, so not only is the endometrium affected…it stays around for a shorter amount of time. This factor alone could account for abortions…totally separate from any effects of endometrial thickness issues.

Yes. To support a pregnancy, the luteal phase–with all normal hormone levels intact–must be at least 12 days long. The way most pills work is to have 3 weeks of hormones, then one week of placebo pills to bring on a period. The math just doesn’t add up.

 

[heathernoel]

I found that darned site, and I’m sorry I did. Horrendous!! I need a bath after that!

People will try to justify their choices by any means possible. I can’t understand how anyone at all could think that the pill is NOT abortive. You hope to not have implantation as a result of the pill. Hence, abortion.

In my humble opinion, anti Catholic sites serve two purposes…1) to spread untruths and 2) to hide truths.

 

[Rach620]

So here, we’re assuming ovulation occurred…we’re looking at actual pregnancies. The pill might be causing more ectopic implantations (more deaths…less get a chance to make it to the uterus), or might be causing less implantations from the uterus itself…explaining the rise in the percentage of ectopic implantations. Or both. Something has to explain the increased percentage of extra-uterine implantations.

Exactly. Something is going on here, and whatever is the case, we can’t say with absolute certainty that human life is NOT being destroyed by the hormonal effects of contraception.

Very interesting! A “COC-induced atrophy” has taken place, which has a long recovery time. Looks like trouble to me.

Btw, is “COC” the same as “OC”?

COC = “combined oral contraceptive pill” (verses POP, which is progestin-only). Just different varieties of the pill, which work slightly differently with different hormones. From my understanding of the research, POPs can be much more dangerous for women and human life than COCs.

 

[Karen1960]

Rach and BHM,

Thank you both for this excellent sources of information. God Bless you both I am sure there are many young women (and men too) here on this site who will benefit from the information you posted. I am too poorly educated (in the secular sense, not in my Faith) to go up against the likes of that woman. I am a just a simple Catholic woman who loves God and His Church, and because of this love, I become a target for them. as sadly many of us have.

After much thought and prayer, I am truly going to limit my time over there, I tried to convience myself I might be helping someone but after this morning explaining on another topic, about “What the free gifts means to Catholics” and defending The Priesthood and another on How Tradition trumps Scriptures for Catholics (a total lie) I have come to the conclusion that they have no intention of discussing with and understanding each other, but to use our postings to hold up to ridicule and make us an example of their idea of Catholic stupidity and twisting everything we say, till we start to question ourselves.

Anyway,I will be here on CAF a lot more thanks for listening to a long post. Needed to get it off my chest.
Now I’ll get back on topic

God Bless you all,
Karen

 

[Karen1960]

I found that darned site, and I’m sorry I did. Horrendous!! I need a bath after that!

People will try to justify their choices by any means possible. I can’t understand how anyone at all could think that the pill is NOT abortive. You hope to not have implantation as a result of the pill. Hence, abortion.

In my humble opinion, anti Catholic sites serve two purposes…1) to spread untruths and 2) to hide truths.

I totally agree.
I’m done with that site, because a site like that no one wants to hear nothing except their own brand of the “truth”

 

[Rach620]

Rach and BHM,

Thank you both for this excellent sources of information. God Bless you both I am sure there are many young women (and men too) here on this site who will benefit from the information you posted. I am too poorly educated (in the secular sense, not in my Faith) to go up against the likes of that woman. I am a just a simple Catholic woman who loves God and His Church, and because of this love, I become a target for them. as sadly many of us have.

After much thought and prayer, I am truly going to limit my time over there, I tried to convience myself I might be helping someone but after this morning explaining on another topic, about “What the free gifts means to Catholics” and defending The Priesthood and another on How Tradition trumps Scriptures for Catholics (a total lie) I have come to the conclusion that they have no intention of discussing with and understanding each other, but to use our postings to hold up to ridicule and make us an example of their idea of Catholic stupidity and twisting everything we say, till we start to question ourselves.

Anyway,I will be here on CAF a lot more thanks for listening to a long post. Needed to get it off my chest.
Now I’ll get back on topic

God Bless you all,
Karen

God bless you, Karen! I too am really trying to limit my time over there and am spending more time over here. I hate to see their errors go unconfronted, but I should leave it to others to do the confronting.

 

[heathernoel]

God Loves You for trying But, unfortunately, the group think mentality is alive and well…it seems that if you’d like conversations with an actual exchange of ideas, there are more friendly forums here!

 

[mark_a]

Conclusion:

Sorry for the long posts!!

Excellent work!!

 

[Karen1960]

God Loves You for trying But, unfortunately, the group think mentality is alive and well…it seems that if you’d like conversations with an actual exchange of ideas, there are more friendly forums here!

very true, over here a Catholic can actually have a conversation with a non-catholic without someone calling us a brainwashed romanist

 

[Karen1960]

God bless you, Karen! I too am really trying to limit my time over there and am spending more time over here. I hate to see their errors go unconfronted, but I should leave it to others to do the confronting.

I hate seeing errors go unconfronted too. but these people seem to spend half their time surfing the web trying to find embarrassing garbage and hate-filled websites to make a mockery out of Catholism.
and then have the nerve to say they do it “out of love”
sometimes it’s just not worth the fight, just pray for them.