Pipe organ held in high esteem--oh, really?!

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According to the VII Documents, “The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin church, for it is the traditional musical instrument…”

This week, I am involved with a Pipe Organ Encounter. Throughout the week, we attend classes, lessons, practices, and concerts, all with the intention of helping us either become better organists, or learn how to start playing the pipe organ.

Today we learned all about the mechanics of the pipe organ. One of our lecturers is the CEO of a company that makes pipe organs. All pipe organs are made by hand.

A pipe organ costs several hundred thousand dollars, and that doesn’t include the maintenance.

Also, a pipe organ must be “climate-controlled.” One of our lecturers mentiond how badly a pipe organ is affected by differences in temperature.

And finally, there must be someone to play the pipe organ. These people are rather rare. It’s more likely to find them in cities with universities and colleges with a good music program.

So I’ve actually read posts from people on CAF who say that all Catholic Churches should have pipe organs and that other instruments are inferior, if not illicit.

Oh, really? Really?!

The Church honestly expects all parishes, ALL of them, even the ones in rural areas, or in the inner city, or in Third World countries–ALL of these parishes are supposed to have pipe organs in order to most fully have Mass?!

I no longer accept that. After hearing the lectures we heard today, I think that for most parishes, a pipe organ would be an expense that they could never meet, a burden that they could never maintain, and an instrument that no one would ever be able to play as it is intended to be played.

As for the electronic organs, heck, even they cost a lot of money. The church where I’m practicing (not a Catholic Church–none of them would open up their doors for practice for this event) has an Allen, and it cost $78,000 (seventy-eight thousand) dollars. That’s more than my house cost!

Here’s what I think that the document is saying–that a pipe organ is certainly wonderful, but other instruments can be used.

And I think that all the people who think that a pipe organ is the only “legitimate” instrument that can be used for Mass had better be rich so that they can help all the pipeless churches ante up and do the “right thing” and buy that pipe organ!
 
The only instrument required for Mass is the human voice. By the words of the holy consecration, all music fades away and only the melody of the angels remains. Gregorian chant hardly needs an organ to lead it… 😃
 
hudson said:
Good thing you are not in charge.
Click to expand...
??

Why do you say this?

I’m not the one charging hundreds of thousands of dollars for a pipe organ, and additional monies for the maintenance contract, and even more money for a skilled organist (or even an unskilled organist).
 
Pipe organ held in high esteem–oh, really?!
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That’s what Vatican II said, yes.
  1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
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Cat,

You seem so much against chant, polyphony, and the pipe organ. These constitute a large majority of the church’s treasury of sacred music. Why do you dislike and eschew them so strongly?

When you sing the Mass (as opposed to singing at Mass, or not singing at all), there is no organ required. Chant, the normative music for the liturgy, needs no accompaniment. I attend Mass weekly at a parish that is embracing the churches wishes for sacred music, and the retention of latin:
  • Chant (Both propers and ordinary, in latin, at every parish Mass, besides some weddings and funerals)
  • Polyphony and sacred choral music
  • Organ
  • Hymns (in that order of preference)
The Mass is sung for all Sunday Masses, as well as many week day Masses. Yes, an OF Missa Cantata on a weekday! It’s great. Yes, it took a little getting used to that we don’t sing as much, but the chant is so beautiful, I’d never regret it.

So, long story short, if you don’t have a pipe organ, try singing the Mass. It’s really not that hard.

Why are you so strongly against what the church wants for Music?
 
TheMc said:
Cat,

You seem so much against chant, polyphony, and the pipe organ. These constitute a large majority of the church’s treasury of sacred music. Why do you dislike and eschew them so strongly?

When you sing the Mass (as opposed to singing at Mass, or not singing at all), there is no organ required. Chant, the normative music for the liturgy, needs no accompaniment. I attend Mass weekly at a parish that has embraced the churches wishes for sacred music, namely:
  • Chant (Both propers and ordinary, in latin, at every parish Mass, besides some weddings and funerals)
  • Polyphony and sacred choral music
  • Organ
  • Hymns (in that order of preference)
The Mass is sung for all Sunday Masses, as well as many week day Masses. Yes, an OF Missa Cantata on a weekday! It’s great. Yes, it took a little getting used to that we don’t sing as much, but the chant is so beautiful, I’d never regret it.

So, long story short, if you don’t have a pipe organ, try singing the Mass. It’s really not that hard.

Why are you so strongly against what the church wants for Music?
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I’m NOT against it! Cut and paste this–I LOVE most traditional music, especially pipe organ. I do not like chant, but I respect it.

I just don’t think that it’s going to happen. I don’t see the people who will make it happen. I don’t see the musicians in our Catholic Churches. I see them in many other churches, especially the Unitarian church in our city, but not in the Catholic Churches. I can list about three or four who are actually educated enough to be able to teach (maybe?) Gregorian chant to a choir. I am one of these, and I would not feel qualified to teach Gregorian chant to a choir.

One thing that I’ve learned this week is that this blacklisting against our parish is a whole lot worse than I thought it was. It’s really, really discouraging. We’ll be lucky if we ever get any good musicians–I’m probably their best bet right now, and I’m the one who can kind of play one hand on the organ.

Perhaps the reason why things have worked out in your parish is that you still have good musicians because they haven’t all deserted your parish to stand in solidarity with homosexual activists. It really isn’t very hopeful here.

But this thread isn’t about music in general. It’s about the pipe organs. Those puppies are pretty expensive!

But you and others are right–no musical instruments are required for Mass.

However, I think that in the United States, Catholic Churches who use no instruments will have a hard time keeping parishioners. Again, maybe it’s different where some of you are, but in our city, people wouldn’t stay.
 
I’m going to speak frankly here, instead of trying to beat around the bush.
Cat said:
I’m NOT against it! Cut and paste this–I LOVE most traditional music, especially pipe organ.
Click to expand...
Ok, but…
Cat said:
I do not like chant, but I respect it.
Click to expand...
Maybe you need to stop going on about how you don’t like chant, and frankly, suck it up. It is the music of the church, and if it does not come back, it is because of people like you who are stubborn about forcing their own tastes on everyone instead of what the church keeps asking us to sing!

It is the music of the church! Walking around saying you don’t like chant is like walking around saying you don’t like the priest wearing vestments during Mass. It is how it is. It is part of our church, and if you don’t like it, too bad.
Cat said:
I just don’t think that it’s going to happen. I don’t see the people who will make it happen. I don’t see the musicians in our Catholic Churches. I see them in many other churches, especially the Unitarian church in our city, but not in the Catholic Churches. I can list about three or four who are actually educated enough to be able to teach (maybe?) Gregorian chant to a choir. I am one of these, and I would not feel qualified to teach Gregorian chant to a choir.
Click to expand...
Why not send someone to something like this next year:
Seven Days of Musical Heaven: Sacred Music Colloquium XXII
 
GloriousOrder said:
The only instrument required for Mass is the human voice. By the words of the holy consecration, all music fades away and only the melody of the angels remains. Gregorian chant hardly needs an organ to lead it… 😃
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Agreed.
Unfortunately, our Masses are anything but sung Masses with Gregorian Chant. They are filled with the every-day sound of secular instruments which, unfortunately, are not “fading away” as the music you describe.
 
TheMc said:
I’m going to speak frankly here, instead of trying to beat around the bush.

Ok, but…

Maybe you need to stop going on about how you don’t like chant, and frankly, suck it up. It is the music of the church, and if it does not come back, it is because of people like you who are stubborn about forcing their own tastes on everyone instead of what the church keeps asking us to sing!

It is the music of the church! Walking around saying you don’t like chant is like walking around saying you don’t like the priest wearing vestments during Mass. It is how it is. It is part of our church, and if you don’t like it, too bad.

Why not send someone to something like this next year:
Seven Days of Musical Heaven: Sacred Music Colloquium XXII
Click to expand...
Ooh. I would go to this!
 
“I’m doing a weeklong workshop to learn how to play the pipe organ!”
–Cat

"Why do you hate the pipe organ so much!? Why do you hate the Church?!
–commenters
 
Just to be clear, the electric ‘pipe organs’ fall into this class. A true, full pipe organ would barely fit in some worship spaces. A more modern, electric organ is a perfectly suitable substitute. Your average parishioner is not going to have a trained enough ear to delineate between a analog and digital instrument.
 
MarkThompson said:
“I’m doing a weeklong workshop to learn how to play the pipe organ!”
–Cat

"Why do you hate the pipe organ so much!? Why do you hate the Church?!
–commenters
Click to expand...
Wow! Talk about picking and choosing verses! You’d be a fantastic fundamentalist!

I understand what the commenter was referring to. Cat’s profession of love for organ, and her attendance at an organ workshop are in complete contradiction to her incessant campaigning for its eradication due to high costs and the current dearth of organists!

What’s really operating here? There is certainly no imminent danger of organs/organists and chanters taking over the Church’s music ministries. So what is all the ranting and raving really about? Simply that it doesn’t look feasible? Even those who strongly promote its use realize this.

So this is a distillation of what I’ve gathered from her posts:
  1. She likes organ but not chant.
  2. To her, organs have just as much secular connotation as guitar and piano.
  3. She thinks they are expensive.
  4. She finds it difficult to go from piano to organ.
This is what I’ve distilled from the Magisterium:
  1. The Church likes organ AND chant.
  2. Organs are more suitable than other instruments, and have “PRIDE OF PLACE”.
  3. When we seek to do God’s will, He provides.
  4. God is the Author of all good gifts, and will help us in developing our talents,
    and life wasn’t meant to be easy or cheap. There is such a thing as the Cross.
 
TheMc said:
To get a better feel for of the event, watch the promo video, or at least some of it. It looks amazing, and if I get to a point in my life where I could make it, I will!
Click to expand...
Very nice. I’ve sung some of the polyphonic stuff like the Agus Dei in part II. But I would love to learn the Gregorian chant especially for the prayers.
 
Cat said:
Today we learned all about the mechanics of the pipe organ. One of our lecturers is the CEO of a company that makes pipe organs. All pipe organs are made by hand.

A pipe organ costs several hundred thousand dollars, and that doesn’t include the maintenance.

Also, a pipe organ must be “climate-controlled.” One of our lecturers mentiond how badly a pipe organ is affected by differences in temperature.

And finally, there must be someone to play the pipe organ. These people are rather rare. It’s more likely to find them in cities with universities and colleges with a good music program.

I no longer accept that. After hearing the lectures we heard today, I think that for most parishes, a pipe organ would be an expense that they could never meet, a burden that they could never maintain, and an instrument that no one would ever be able to play as it is intended to be played.

As for the electronic organs, heck, even they cost a lot of money. The church where I’m practicing (not a Catholic Church–none of them would open up their doors for practice for this event) has an Allen, and it cost $78,000 (seventy-eight thousand) dollars. That’s more than my house cost!

Here’s what I think that the document is saying–that a pipe organ is certainly wonderful, but other instruments can be used.

And I think that all the people who think that a pipe organ is the only “legitimate” instrument that can be used for Mass had better be rich so that they can help all the pipeless churches ante up and do the “right thing” and buy that pipe organ!
Click to expand...
i know what you`re getting at; but a couple of the other posters seem to misunderstand your “drift”/motives.

Having had a bit of a go on an expensive “imitation” pipe organ, i knpw how difficult it is to play. For a start, the skill required just to press the keys gave me the horrors!

For an average-sized parish church, whats wrong with just an appropriately-voiced electronic organ in the sub-$10.000 range?. Yamaha etc, etc, etc? The church i used to go to had an elderly 2-manual Conn which was still going strong. It had no fancy add-ons. At least the keyboard of a "common herd" electronic organ is easy to play on; and a half-decent musician can make the thing sing! Not the ultimate, of course; but dignified, and more than adequate. Anyway, how many parish churches could tolerate the sound from the lowest voices......theyd explode!

Thanks for the bit of info about the care and feeding of a pipe organ; you taught me something!
 
The Church didn’t say it, some posters did, according to you.

Really.
 
Cat said:
According to the VII Documents, “The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin church, for it is the traditional musical instrument…”

This week, I am involved with a Pipe Organ Encounter. Throughout the week, we attend classes, lessons, practices, and concerts, all with the intention of helping us either become better organists, or learn how to start playing the pipe organ.

Today we learned all about the mechanics of the pipe organ. One of our lecturers is the CEO of a company that makes pipe organs. All pipe organs are made by hand.

A pipe organ costs several hundred thousand dollars, and that doesn’t include the maintenance.

Also, a pipe organ must be “climate-controlled.” One of our lecturers mentiond how badly a pipe organ is affected by differences in temperature.

And finally, there must be someone to play the pipe organ. These people are rather rare. It’s more likely to find them in cities with universities and colleges with a good music program.

So I’ve actually read posts from people on CAF who say that all Catholic Churches should have pipe organs and that other instruments are inferior, if not illicit.

Oh, really? Really?!

The Church honestly expects all parishes, ALL of them, even the ones in rural areas, or in the inner city, or in Third World countries–ALL of these parishes are supposed to have pipe organs in order to most fully have Mass?!

I no longer accept that. After hearing the lectures we heard today, I think that for most parishes, a pipe organ would be an expense that they could never meet, a burden that they could never maintain, and an instrument that no one would ever be able to play as it is intended to be played.

As for the electronic organs, heck, even they cost a lot of money. The church where I’m practicing (not a Catholic Church–none of them would open up their doors for practice for this event) has an Allen, and it cost $78,000 (seventy-eight thousand) dollars. That’s more than my house cost!

Here’s what I think that the document is saying–that a pipe organ is certainly wonderful, but other instruments can be used.

And I think that all the people who think that a pipe organ is the only “legitimate” instrument that can be used for Mass had better be rich so that they can help all the pipeless churches ante up and do the “right thing” and buy that pipe organ!
Click to expand...
I believe that you’ve learned enough to be afraid, but not enough to really know. Yes, everything you’ve said is true to an extent, but some of it needs to be put into perspective. Okay? Here we go.

First off, it is true that they are made by hand. Each and every organ is different and I believe I said that a couple times before. Nobody mass produces pipe organs. However, notice how I said each is different? This means that no two organs will have the exact cost, so to give the exact cost of an organ at several hundred thousand dollars in inaccurate. It could be more, it could be less. Plus, nothing says that a new organ has to be purchased. There are a good deal of used pipe organs for sale from churches that are closing down or moving and purchasing one of those would be a wiser option for many churches that are looking to obtain one. I’ve seen some pretty fancy organs for sale around $40,000 - $50,000 used. That’s a far cry from price listed for new ones.

Climate control is something that most churches do nowadays anyway. I don’t think that stopped churches from having organs before air conditioning. Do you think they said “Oh, we can’t have organs because we can’t keep this church at a constant temperature!” Well, there would have gone Bach and all the other organ masters because they wouldn’t have been able to have an organ to play on. So yes, you need to maintain them, but it’s not quite the killer you may think considering today’s technology.

As for finding people to play the pipe organ, I point to your own musical views as one problem why there aren’t any. Why should people spend the time and money to learn to play an instrument that is set in the background so guitars and pianos can take priority? Again, I know churches that insult their organists and tell them they have to play music that’s not fitted for an organ and to take instructions from volunteer “music directors”. If a church is unwilling to pay for organists or treat them as some extra cost that can be used here and there, then sure, there won’t be any organists around. Start installing some pipe organs in churches and get rid of the guitars and you’ll see a revival. Don’t expect a revival to start without an effort. We’re not going to appear if you rub a magic lamp.

Interestingly enough, I’ve found a large number of rural churches that still have the pipe organs and that the bigger churches in the cities are the ones that no longer have them. The argument that it’s impossible for a little country parish to have a pipe organ is, to be blunt, pure hogwash. I used to work for a tiny rural parish with one of the finest pipe organs in the area. I know another one that just installed a pipe organ, and that parish is poor, poor, poor (I guess they know their priorities!). Another church that does NOT have a pipe organ could have afforded one considering all the wasteful spending that has been done over the past decade, including custom made baptismal font, tables, candlesticks, new kneelers, chalices, and other vessels, just to name a few things that they bought (but didn’t need). I’ve noticed much of this wasteful spending in other churches as well. Also, I notice churches have grand pianos… and those things are pretty expensive themselves. I know a university bought one for $180,000!

So think again. While what you’ve been told is correct, you couldn’t be more wrong in your assessment.
 
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