Pipe organ held in high esteem--oh, really?!

[KathTromp18]

At my campus parish, it’s so small that an organ (and I don’t mean one of those low-quality ones) wouldn’t fit. The baby-grand is having a hard enough time fitting. A good organ needs space for pipes (or if it’s digital, lots of cables and a big speaker (which would destroy the congregations hearing)), and that tiny parish just doesn’t have that. I do love the organ, however, and enjoy playing alongside it at my home parishes (because a trumpet/organ duo sounds so much better than a trumpet/piano duo, because when I play with the organ, I can be another stop, rather than trying not to overpower the percussive hammered strings). What I hope to do, now that I’ll be in charge of the contemporary choir (because I’m a music major, and have played trumpet for the Liturgy for 3 years), is, along with the euphonium player that I talked into playing with the contemporary group, get a couple more brass players (a trumpet and trombone, preferably) and and make the brass ensemble into an “almost organ”, but finding willing specimens will be difficult…

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

At my campus parish, it’s so small that an organ (and I don’t mean one of those low-quality ones) wouldn’t fit. The baby-grand is having a hard enough time fitting. A good organ needs space for pipes (or if it’s digital, lots of cables and a big speaker (which would destroy the congregations hearing)), and that tiny parish just doesn’t have that. I do love the organ, however, and enjoy playing alongside it at my home parishes (because a trumpet/organ duo sounds so much better than a trumpet/piano duo, because when I play with the organ, I can be another stop, rather than trying not to overpower the percussive hammered strings). What I hope to do, now that I’ll be in charge of the contemporary choir (because I’m a music major, and have played trumpet for the Liturgy for 3 years), is, along with the euphonium player that I talked into playing with the contemporary group, get a couple more brass players (a trumpet and trombone, preferably) and and make the brass ensemble into an “almost organ”, but finding willing specimens will be difficult…

You might be surprised at how small of a space some organs can fit in. They get to be pretty tiny. Again, I played in a small country church that hat a small pipe organ. Obviously it was much larger than a chapel, but it certainly wasn’t a cathedral. I also know a monastery with a small chapel that has an organ that is a combination pipe and digital. There’s plenty of room for it. I’d be willing to bet that there’s room in your little chapel for an organ of some kind.

 

[KathTromp18]

You might be surprised at how small of a space some organs can fit in. They get to be pretty tiny. Again, I played in a small country church that hat a small pipe organ. Obviously it was much larger than a chapel, but it certainly wasn’t a cathedral. I also know a monastery with a small chapel that has an organ that is a combination pipe and digital. There’s plenty of room for it. I’d be willing to bet that there’s room in your little chapel for an organ of some kind.

I’ve seen many tiny organs, but they generally aren’t very good quality, or are too expensive when they are good quality (not that it’s a decision I get to make anyway ) Had I my way, there’d be five organs like the Salzburg Cathedral (after a few minor renovations of course). We don’t even have anyone who can play organ at the campus parish (all the organists are at the protestant churches (except the evangelicals who use a “praise band” (Gather Us In sounds so BEAUTIFUL compared to that) or the OTHER Catholic parish in my college’s town). I’d learn myself, but my keyboarding skills aren’t good enough and my feet are very uncoordinated.

 

[Sarika]

Also, I notice churches have grand pianos… and those things are pretty expensive themselves. I know a university bought one for $180,000!
So think again. While what you’ve been told is correct, you couldn’t be more wrong in your assessment.

Thank you for your logical, insightful and level-headed comments. I too was thinking of the cost of the typical parish grand pianos. As a pianist, I know that a really good one can cost at least as much as the organ that was mentioned. In fact, I thought the cost of the organ was rather low. Institutions such as schools and churches should not have such a terrible time acquiring the necessary funds, especially the amount needed for a used one.
Thanks so much for your post!

 

[Rolltide]

i know what you`re getting at; but a couple of the other posters seem to misunderstand your “drift”/motives.

Having had a bit of a go on an expensive “imitation” pipe organ, i knpw how difficult it is to play. For a start, the skill required just to press the keys gave me the horrors!

For an average-sized parish church, whats wrong with just an appropriately-voiced electronic organ in the sub-$10.000 range?. Yamaha etc, etc, etc? The church i used to go to had an elderly 2-manual Conn which was still going strong. It had no fancy add-ons. At least the keyboard of a "common herd" electronic organ is easy to play on; and a half-decent musician can make the thing sing! Not the ultimate, of course; but dignified, and more than adequate. Anyway, how many parish churches could tolerate the sound from the lowest voices......theyd explode!

Thanks for the bit of info about the care and feeding of a pipe organ; you taught me something!

Absolutely correct. Look at what can be done just in the $2000 range!
youtube.com/watch?v=rJX7K0L5Zb8

Or for $3500
youtube.com/watch?v=OShtb0hHzoA&feature=related (go to 2:40)

Or the $5500 range:
youtube.com/watch?v=V_f48s9f59w

Most of these can also replicate an outstanding piano, although certain brands are better than others.

 

[m134e5]

I just don’t think that it’s going to happen. I don’t see the people who will make it happen. I don’t see the musicians in our Catholic Churches. I see them in many other churches, especially the Unitarian church in our city, but not in the Catholic Churches. I can list about three or four who are actually educated enough to be able to teach (maybe?) Gregorian chant to a choir. I am one of these, and I would not feel qualified to teach Gregorian chant to a choir.

This is because every church (it seems) but the Catholic Church is willing to pay their musicians. The church secretary gets paid and the school janitor gets paid, but the musicians are expected to volunteer. People think that music is “just for fun”- that it’s not real work. Professional musicians take what they do very seriously and they aren’t likely to want to work for those who treat what they do like it’s just a game.

 

[convert999]

At least in my area, there doesn’t seem to be a huge shortage of organists. I have sent six of my piano students for organ lessons, and two of them are playing for churches and are quite good! I always try to spot good organ prospects and find that boys who are sensitive to the “girly” factor in piano often like the mechanical complexity and sheer power of the organ. When I have a pre-teen boy who is losing interest in piano lessons I always arrange a “field trip” to the cathedral organ concert series, and their mouths hang open! We have three good organists at our parish.

I encourage my students to listen to all kinds of music. If they don’t hear the organ at church, where else will they hear it? The same thing goes for chant. By trying to “appeal to the young” with simplistic music we are insulting their intelligence and denying them the opportunity to connect with the traditions of the church. Most of my students (and I have 32) dislike “praise bands” and such. Why? Because they have been exposed to really glorious music and wonderful musicians.

Those who are concerned about a shortage of organists need to consider what they can do to remedy that situation. How about inviting a teenager to an organ concert? Or offering to help pay for lessons? Or encouraging those kids who are learning the organ?

 

[Melchior_1]

If Cat really hated chant/the organ, would she REALLY take time out of the week just to go to a "learn about the organ/play the organ better seminar when she could do so much other stuff in the week?

I think it’s more that she has an issue with the people around here who react with “it’s so easy a caveman can do it!” Geico type comments about the organ, and would like people to put their money where their mouth is. Which makes total sense, because that’s what she is doing herself. You may not like her opinions, but she’s actually going out and doing something about things. She’s learning more and coming to conclusions based on what she’s finding out. Most people wouldn’t bother.

The refrain most are singing is the age-old Internet adage of “YOU’RE DOIN’ IT WRONG”. Immediately people have lost sight of that Cat has taken time (and possibly money) out of her week to learn more about this. They don’t bother looking at her background in music or her findings, and instead question her motives.

This isn’t even counting others who simply say “get rid of all music!”.

 

[convert999]

I think we need to cut people some slack who think that playing an instrument is “easy.” A good musician makes it look easy, which is why people come to their first piano lesson expecting to learn Fur Elise in a month. (Why is it ALWAYS Fur Elise?!) I see people doing things that I can’t do and I always think it looks easy, but I know better!

 

[Cat]

If Cat really hated chant/the organ, would she REALLY take time out of the week just to go to a "learn about the organ/play the organ better seminar when she could do so much other stuff in the week?

I think it’s more that she has an issue with the people around here who react with “it’s so easy a caveman can do it!” Geico type comments about the organ, and would like people to put their money where their mouth is. Which makes total sense, because that’s what she is doing herself. You may not like her opinions, but she’s actually going out and doing something about things. She’s learning more and coming to conclusions based on what she’s finding out. Most people wouldn’t bother.

The refrain most are singing is the age-old Internet adage of “YOU’RE DOIN’ IT WRONG”. Immediately people have lost sight of that Cat has taken time (and possibly money) out of her week to learn more about this. They don’t bother looking at her background in music or her findings, and instead question her motives.

This isn’t even counting others who simply say “get rid of all music!”.

Yes, my money. It’s not a lot ($175–a bargain!). But it’s still my money.

And my vacation time. This is definitely a “working” vacation. We are in class several hours a day, lessons for an hour, and practice for several hours, along with a daily field trip or concert. (The field trips and concerts are lots of fun, BTW!)

BTW, my parish will not allow me to practice on our organ this week because the AGO is the organization that is presenting this event. So I’m just a little worried that if I decide to take regular pipe organ lessons, I will end up paying a Protestant church to rent their building to practice. Sigh.

 

[Cat]

As for finding people to play the pipe organ, I point to your own musical views as one problem why there aren’t any. Why should people spend the time and money to learn to play an instrument that is set in the background so guitars and pianos can take priority? Again, I know churches that insult their organists and tell them they have to play music that’s not fitted for an organ and to take instructions from volunteer “music directors”. If a church is unwilling to pay for organists or treat them as some extra cost that can be used here and there, then sure, there won’t be any organists around. Start installing some pipe organs in churches and get rid of the guitars and you’ll see a revival. Don’t expect a revival to start without an effort. We’re not going to appear if you rub a magic lamp.

Quite a few of the people attending the Pipe Organ Encounter are pianists like myself who want to learn the pipe organ.

But most of them are not optimistic about learning. Many of them are working during the day, either in musical careers (mainly teaching) or at a “day job.” (That’s me–I work in a hospital lab.)

In the evenings, they are already busy with families and other activities, mainly musical activities. The career musicians are generally booked with various gigs, mainly accompanying work.

So they are concerned that they will have a hard time carving out some practice time.

I am in a better situation here, in that I don’t have small children or any children at home, and I don’t do that many “gigs.” If I can find a place to practice and can afford to pay the “rental” charge, I should be able to practice almost every day.

I am really, really hoping that my parish priest will allow me to practice on our parish pipe organ, one of the best in the city. But I am worried that this “blacklist” issue will make that an impossibility. The issue is much more complex than I thought, and I’m not sure I want to step into this and get involved with a conflict that will cause a great deal of stress for me and my family. I wish that the homosexual who is basically holding the AGO captive would back down. But I don’t think that’s going to happen because he has all kinds of activists behind him supporting him. Of course our Church has Jesus Christ supporting us!

At any rate, I just wanted to point out that there are musicians who want to learn to play, but all too often, cannot find the practice time due to family and job responsibilities. I have the time, and I am willing to pay the Protestant churches to allow me to use their organ, so at this time, I plan to continue to learn to play.

 

[Cat]

I’m going to speak frankly here, instead of trying to beat around the bush.

Ok, but…

Maybe you need to stop going on about how you don’t like chant, and frankly, suck it up. It is the music of the church, and if it does not come back, it is because of people like you who are stubborn about forcing their own tastes on everyone instead of what the church keeps asking us to sing!

It is the music of the church! Walking around saying you don’t like chant is like walking around saying you don’t like the priest wearing vestments during Mass. It is how it is. It is part of our church, and if you don’t like it, too bad.

Why not send someone to something like this next year:
Seven Days of Musical Heaven: Sacred Music Colloquium XXII

Thank you very much for this link. I will definitely look into attending next year. I am not in a position where I am “in charge” of any music in my parish or in the diocese, but I can still learn all about the music. It looks wonderful!

It would not be a question of “sending.” It would be a question of paying our own way and going. For me, unless fortunes change, it would be very feasible.

Thanks again.

 

[hudson]

Your last couple posts have been more charitable to traditional music. Keep it up and you may have some folks praising you instead of fighting. Thanks for trying to learn the pipe organ since we obviously need more folks. Next year go to a Chant workshop so you can join us in that love also.

 

[TheMc]

Ditto, Hudson. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[TheMc]

Thank you very much for this link. I will definitely look into attending next year. I am not in a position where I am “in charge” of any music in my parish or in the diocese, but I can still learn all about the music. It looks wonderful!

It totally spaced my mind, but I should have posted about it when it was still open for registration! I think many people would like to at least look into going to something like this. I couldn’t go, but I would love to!

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

flickr.com/photos/stmarysna/sets/72157604611562317

All I know is it sounds heavenly

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Quite a few of the people attending the Pipe Organ Encounter are pianists like myself who want to learn the pipe organ.

But most of them are not optimistic about learning. Many of them are working during the day, either in musical careers (mainly teaching) or at a “day job.” (That’s me–I work in a hospital lab.)

In the evenings, they are already busy with families and other activities, mainly musical activities. The career musicians are generally booked with various gigs, mainly accompanying work.

So they are concerned that they will have a hard time carving out some practice time.

I am in a better situation here, in that I don’t have small children or any children at home, and I don’t do that many “gigs.” If I can find a place to practice and can afford to pay the “rental” charge, I should be able to practice almost every day.

I am really, really hoping that my parish priest will allow me to practice on our parish pipe organ, one of the best in the city. But I am worried that this “blacklist” issue will make that an impossibility. The issue is much more complex than I thought, and I’m not sure I want to step into this and get involved with a conflict that will cause a great deal of stress for me and my family. I wish that the homosexual who is basically holding the AGO captive would back down. But I don’t think that’s going to happen because he has all kinds of activists behind him supporting him. Of course our Church has Jesus Christ supporting us!

At any rate, I just wanted to point out that there are musicians who want to learn to play, but all too often, cannot find the practice time due to family and job responsibilities. I have the time, and I am willing to pay the Protestant churches to allow me to use their organ, so at this time, I plan to continue to learn to play.

It’s hard to believe that there’s nobody to play a fine pipe organ near Chicago. Is the parish willing to pay well for someone to do it? There has to be some sort of factor that is preventing organists from coming to play, because I know as an organist I would jump at the chance to play a fine instrument as opposed to some of the electric things I have to use.

 

[Sarabande]

It’s hard to believe that there’s nobody to play a fine pipe organ near Chicago. Is the parish willing to pay well for someone to do it? There has to be some sort of factor that is preventing organists from coming to play, because I know as an organist I would jump at the chance to play a fine instrument as opposed to some of the electric things I have to use.

I think with Cat’s church situation is that the AGO has place a ban for any and all AGO members to play there because of the complaint lodged against that parish by the previous organist. If you are not part of the AGO, you can play wherever you want, but if you are, you are held by the confines of their membership.

There aren’t many bans or blacklists at churches, but when there are, it really does mean you can’t play there. It is very helpful when you’ve been let go of your job due to wrongdoing, such as the case of a friend of mine who should have never been let go. He wasn’t part of the AGO at the time, so he was screwed royally which I’ve seen done to at least three other organists I work with within the last year or so. He has since joined in order to avoid something like this again and to also be able to look for jobs. But it seems that this organist or the group behind this has made a huge case out of it due to the fact that he was fired because of being a practicing homosexual.

Most male organists I know are homosexuals and they all know what their church’s stance is with homosexuality. They are either not practicing or are very quiet about their sexual orientation. Some, you wouldn’t even know that they were gay. Most are also aware of the various church policies on this and accept it because churches are the only place where they can find jobs as organists, but this man seemed to no take any of that into account, at least from what I read on the incident. There are always two sides to every story, but this does seem very unfortunate for Cat’s church.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I think with Cat’s church situation is that the AGO has place a ban for any and all AGO members to play there because of the complaint lodged against that parish by the previous organist. If you are not part of the AGO, you can play wherever you want, but if you are, you are held by the confines of their membership.

There aren’t many bans or blacklists at churches, but when there are, it really does mean you can’t play there. It is very helpful when you’ve been let go of your job due to wrongdoing, such as the case of a friend of mine who should have never been let go. He wasn’t part of the AGO at the time, so he was screwed royally which I’ve seen done to at least three other organists I work with within the last year or so. He has since joined in order to avoid something like this again and to also be able to look for jobs. But it seems that this organist or the group behind this has made a huge case out of it due to the fact that he was fired because of being a practicing homosexual.

Most male organists I know are homosexuals and they all know what their church’s stance is with homosexuality. They are either not practicing or are very quiet about their sexual orientation. Some, you wouldn’t even know that they were gay. Most are also aware of the various church policies on this and accept it because churches are the only place where they can find jobs as organists, but this man seemed to no take any of that into account, at least from what I read on the incident. There are always two sides to every story, but this does seem very unfortunate for Cat’s church.

That makes sense. I avoid the AGO so I can choose to play wherever I wish, and it wouldn’t bother me to play at a place in which there was someone let go because of the homosexual issue. I don’t really like being told where I can play by an organization, even if they do somehow protect job security and all that. As a Catholic I’m able to make the choice where I can play without anyone else telling me what to do and I’m not going to heed a silly blacklist made by the AGO. It’s good for me because I have more options, but also bad for me because people can just cut me whenever they want. I prefer the freedom, however.

 

[Sarabande]

That makes sense. I avoid the AGO so I can choose to play wherever I wish, and it wouldn’t bother me to play at a place in which there was someone let go because of the homosexual issue. I don’t really like being told where I can play by an organization, even if they do somehow protect job security and all that. As a Catholic I’m able to make the choice where I can play without anyone else telling me what to do and I’m not going to heed a silly blacklist made by the AGO. It’s good for me because I have more options, but also bad for me because people can just cut me whenever they want. I prefer the freedom, however.

I agree with you. A lot of the organists I know don’t belong at least in my area’s chapter mainly because they don’t have much respect for the AGO and also because they do enjoy their freedom. Although, I’ve found with the few I know who have been screwed out of positions, have joined as a last resort. It is a shame. They are the ones who worked as organists/music directors full time and depended on the income for their livelihood.

When you look at the various chapters on each of their websites, the blacklists are so few and far between that you can easily find out which church has the blacklist and then do as much or as little research on the situation (the former journalist in me. haha!)

I personally believe that part of the reason the complaint was lodged was to protect whatever hold over his former job he has or thinks he has. As I said, most organists and other musicians, gay or not, devout or not, know the beliefs of the church/denomination they work for and also know the ramifications should they violate the policies. Knowing enough organists in my area, I can pretty much guarantee that if no complaint was made and no “blacklist” was enacted, those same organists who are behind this guy would be the first people sending their resumes to the church for his job. Whether or not one believes he was in the wrong, he was smart and obviously knew what he was doing based on his connections with other organists. (I don’t think I need to expound on that subject much as I think most of us have come across that kind.) You make a church suffer enough without anyone to play their organ, you may be able to get them to fold and give you back “your” job and none of the “wolves” were able to take it. At least I think that is part of the reason.

I think it’s great that Cat is taking the initiative and is willing to learn how to play the organ. However short or long it takes for her to learn it, I think she has the integrity and respect for the music and especially the mass to be sure she does it right. My only advice to you, Cat, is to try to be as optimistic and positive as possible and to focus on the beauty and the prayer within that music and the instrument itself. Don’t allow yourself to look at the negative especially in the beginning. I know it can be easy to fall into naysaying, especially if you (“you” in general) are prone to see the negative and a little too much of what you view as the reality or practicality. The most successful people are those who do see the reality, but don’t let it get them down and feel negative. Although I’m not an organist and have never tried learning it, I know how difficult and daunting something can seem when you are first learning to master an instrument. In my case, the voice. (It’s funny how so many instrumentalists I know think that mastering the voice is one of the hardest instruments to be very good at… one of my organists friends who is literally a genius on the organ and piano thinks that and has taken years of voice - who is a very good classical singer as well.) I wish you the best in your endeavors.