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Sarika
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And this I think agrees with my premise: It’s probably not so much what you play/sing but HOW you play/sing it. I guess you have to be there.
According to the mind of the Church, BOTH are so very, very important.
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Sarika
Guest
I agree with you. A lot of the organists I know don’t belong at least in my area’s chapter mainly because they don’t have much respect for the AGO and also because they do enjoy their freedom.
Would it be possible to form another organization for organists that is more respectful of their consciences? How about somehting like “The League of Catholic Organists”, with the abbreviation “LOCO”…but maybe that’s not so good, I think one can
see where people will go with that.
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
In regard to tempo of organ pieces, acoustics do have to be remembered. Often times I’ve heard that people play too slow, but it has to be remembered that in some churches the reverberating sound can be too much if a hymn is played fast and the notes will jumble together. I think this is something that many people do not understand. Obviously some churches and organs will have different effects. There is also a reason why arpeggio bass that’s found in a lot of modern hymns doesn’t translate well to the pipe organ (and why I either modify them or play something else). Organs don’t need the extra bass notes to sustain sound like the piano.
In short, some people think that fast = good. That’s not always the case. A piece does not need to be fast to be joyful or grandiose.
In short, some people think that fast = good. That’s not always the case. A piece does not need to be fast to be joyful or grandiose.
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rben20
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Coming into this rather late but responding to the OP’s original statement. They are too expensive and not practical to maintain is hogwash. If you know anything about organists is that the guild here in America is dominated by PROTESTANTS. They truly put us to shame on so many levels and this just another. If the protestants can maintain organs and use them on Sundays, why can’t Catholics? O yea, just forget the documents and tradition like every other Catholic parish seems to use guitars 
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ProVobis
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Good point. Seems like over 95% of youtube videos of pipe organs and pipe organ pieces are from Protestant churches. Apparently they hold it higher esteem than Catholics.They truly put us to shame on so many levels and this just another. If the protestants can maintain organs and use them on Sundays, why can’t Catholics? O yea, just forget the documents and tradition like every other Catholic parish seems to use guitars
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Sarabande
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Haha! I can totally see where people would go with LOCO, although my friends and I sometimes joke that we have to be a little crazy to be musicians and really crazy to be church musicians.Would it be possible to form another organization for organists that is more respectful of their consciences? How about somehting like “The League of Catholic Organists”, with the abbreviation “LOCO”…but maybe that’s not so good, I think one can
see where people will go with that.
I know in my city there is an organisation for Catholic church musicians. I can’t remember the name of it, but I think it is mainly for church organists and I don’t think you have to pay any membership dues. It contains people from all different levels of musicianship. Unfortunately, I don’t think they have much influence, but I think it can be helpful when looking for subs.
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Sarabande
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Also, I know that many good, Catholic organists work in Protestant churches because they are the ones who do pay and want the organ. Sad thing is that many musicians who work in Catholic parishes do automatically get written off just because they work in a Catholic church. The reputation is that many people who play in Catholic parishes aren’t good musicians or are just mediocre musicians, that they play beautiful music horribly or play just bad music in general and that many don’t know how to really work an organ. I know that there is this automatic snubbing when they find out where you work. And then it seems you have to work extra hard to “prove” yourself and surprise the other musicians you are working with. After which you receive the “compliment” of “you’re too good to work for a Catholic church. You really should put your talents where it will be appreciated more and used more.” To which my reply is always gracious and appreciative that they think well of my musicianship, but that because I am Catholic, I want to be a little part of providing good musicianship and beautiful, reverent music to those in the parish where I work. It doesn’t do myself or anyone else in that parish any good if I abandon them so that I can get just about the same amount or a little more pay. The Catholics in my parish deserve good, prayerful musicianship and the younger generations definitely should be exposed to it so that if they are budding musicians, they have something to look towards and may want to work as a church musician. If all of the church instrumentalists and singers aren’t good, many won’t want to bother learning sacred repertoire.Coming into this rather late but responding to the OP’s original statement. They are too expensive and not practical to maintain is hogwash. If you know anything about organists is that the guild here in America is dominated by PROTESTANTS. They truly put us to shame on so many levels and this just another. If the protestants can maintain organs and use them on Sundays, why can’t Catholics? O yea, just forget the documents and tradition like every other Catholic parish seems to use guitars
And I know that Catholics appreciate good musicianship and music just like any other person in every other denomination. I think we just have the tendency to put up with things like that much longer than others.
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rben20
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It is an extremely sad situation in the Catholic Church. If you were to go to Rome you would witness gregorian chant, latin, organ…the works. The Pope does not wish to use it exclusively in Rome. It is to be modeled after! Yet at least in America, like you pointed out very well, the organists are forced out in favor of ****** music and in many cases go to protestant churches to play because the Catholic ones either A. don’t care for organ or B. don’t pay at all. When I see ignorant posts about how they are not able to care for organ it just really upsets me because the protestants don’t have such pointless arguments. Catholics have become known as lackluster in just about everything from music to bible reading to spirituality. It just gets progressively worse. We need to restore dignity and not settle for mickey mouse music. Yes Gregorian chant is hard, organ is hard, playing beautiful music is hard but why must we live in a society where everyone just wants to do the simplest thing possible, not to mention play the same thing every Sunday? Shouldn’t we try offering the best for God and actually learn working hard pays off? People seem to want the easiest and cheapest way these days. 
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elgar
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However, there are encouraging exceptions taking place. The LaCrosse Wisconsin Diocese just installed a monster 4-manual Noak pipe organ in the Cathedral of St. Joseph the Workman and earlier another large impressive Noak in 2008 at the newly built Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe. I really believe none of this would have happened if not for the influence and deep appreciation of the organ by then-Bishop Raymond Burke. Both places have very proficient organists and directors of music. This is so encouraging in an otherwise Catholic music wasteland for the midwest.
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TheMc
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The Madison, WI diocesan choir also has an awesome organist who plays at the cathedral I hear. But besides La Crosse,the midwest is a musical wasteland, as you say.
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Sarabande
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I agree with all that you mentioned above. What I bolded is, I think, one of the main problems today. Recently, my voice teacher and I were discussing the concept of discipline in terms of mastering one’s instrument - in my case the voice. She was telling me that so many of her students have no sense of discipline anymore and that I was one of the exceptions. I’ve noticed that myself. It seems that so many want immediate gratification. They want results NOW. They want the fastest routes to get to their goal But, when you are mastering something, most people don’t get results immediately. If you cut corners, it could be at the expense of your technique which would manifest itself later on in life or maybe even in just a few short years. A true mastering of one’s art and technique takes time and patience as well as real discipline and hard work.It is an extremely sad situation in the Catholic Church. If you were to go to Rome you would witness gregorian chant, latin, organ…the works. The Pope does not wish to use it exclusively in Rome. It is to be modeled after! Yet at least in America, like you pointed out very well, the organists are forced out in favor of ****** music and in many cases go to protestant churches to play because the Catholic ones either A. don’t care for organ or B. don’t pay at all. When I see ignorant posts about how they are not able to care for organ it just really upsets me because the protestants don’t have such pointless arguments. Catholics have become known as lackluster in just about everything from music to bible reading to spirituality. It just gets progressively worse. We need to restore dignity and not settle for mickey mouse music. Yes Gregorian chant is hard, organ is hard, playing beautiful music is hard but why must we live in a society where everyone just wants to do the simplest thing possible, not to mention play the same thing every Sunday? **Shouldn’t we try offering the best for God and actually learn working hard pays off? People seem to want the easiest and cheapest way these days. **
The great cathedrals weren’t built in a couple of years, our treasury of art and music wasn’t compiled in just a few days or years. The people who were gifted to create these things of spiritual beauty didn’t just wake up one day and suddenly have the talent. And the people who are to play the instruments or use their voices just don’t learn their technique in a week or a month and expect wonders. It’s very rare when that happens, but even the geniuses were children once and had to be shown the basics in order to fly. Again, it all requires the time, patience, discipline, love and hard work. AND, let’s face it, it takes money. You want good organists, pay for a good organists. You want younger generations to play the organ or to sing better, help pay for their lessons, have them attend workshops, concerts, etc. - and pay their way. You see that happening at certain Protestant churches, but hardly ever or never at Catholic parishes. So often it’s all talk, but no substance.
OR, which I always love, they tell you they want the traditions taught and them to have exposure to the vast repertoire of sacred music, but when you start to implement it, suddenly things are done to “sabotage” the success of it, unintentionally and sometimes intentionally - make it done at a mass that hardly anyone attends, hire poor musicians to play (God forbid you pay an organist at least some stipend) and thus make it sound horrible to the ears of the congregation, or hire musicians who have more of a background in playing more folk-like or rock-like music and no real experience in chant and traditional music to implement it, continuously talk about it in the negative to congregants about how hard it is and that it will never really take off. None of it will motivate people.
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Sarabande
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I’ve noticed in my diocese within the last few years, there have been changes as well. It is encouraging and taking a positive direction. But the one problem I see is that it is not hitting the suburbs as well as it hits the major cities and, surprisingly to some, the rural areas. I find rural areas do better than suburban parishes in regards to their music programs, strangely enough, especially since they don’t have close to the amount of money that many of the suburban parishes (at least in my area) have. I’ve also found they tend to have better homilists out in the rural parishes where I’ve attended mass.
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elgar
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My theory is this: since your Bishop assigns priests to the parishes this may be intentional for whatever reason. Most Catholic bishops I know couldn’t care less about the pipe organ and organ music. Bottom line–they view the whole thing a waste of money. What is it that is taught in those seminaries today?
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Cat
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I was raised Protestant, and did a lot of music ministry in the Protestant churches. I say this to establish that I know what I am talking about, that it is truth.
Here’s how they afford things: Protestant churches are willing to go into big debt to get what they want when they want it.
You see all those big new buildings? Most of the time, they are built on credit. There are exceptions. The C & MA Church that my husband and I attended for 10 years refused to go into debt. All business was done in cash, and if cash wasn’t available, there was no business.
But most Protestant churches do not hesitate to borrow hundreds of thousands, or even millions of dollars. They consider it an investment, and count on increased numbers of people to pay off the debt.
Frankly, I doubt most lending organizations would loan money to most Catholic parishes right now. They aren’t exactly a good risk.
And perhaps some of you know, since I don’t–perhaps various dioceses in the U.S. forbid parishes from taking out loans for “unnecessary” items like pipe organs.
So don’t envy the Protestant churches. Most of them are in hock up to their diapasons for that pipe organ!
Here’s how they afford things: Protestant churches are willing to go into big debt to get what they want when they want it.
You see all those big new buildings? Most of the time, they are built on credit. There are exceptions. The C & MA Church that my husband and I attended for 10 years refused to go into debt. All business was done in cash, and if cash wasn’t available, there was no business.
But most Protestant churches do not hesitate to borrow hundreds of thousands, or even millions of dollars. They consider it an investment, and count on increased numbers of people to pay off the debt.
Frankly, I doubt most lending organizations would loan money to most Catholic parishes right now. They aren’t exactly a good risk.
And perhaps some of you know, since I don’t–perhaps various dioceses in the U.S. forbid parishes from taking out loans for “unnecessary” items like pipe organs.
So don’t envy the Protestant churches. Most of them are in hock up to their diapasons for that pipe organ!
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Sarabande
Guest
I don’t know what it’s like in other dioceses, but I do know that apparently in my diocese if a diocesan parish wants to throw a concert of sacred music, for instance, any proceeds they make from it has to go to the diocese and not to the parish itself. I found this out when my music director and I discussed putting on a benefit concert to raise money for the parish, more specifically, for any upkeep of the pipe organ there. This type of policy is not good for individual parishes, especially ones which are hard hit for money. From what I understand, the parish that actually raised that money with the concert rarely sees any of it go to their own parish.
Now, there are parishes run by individual orders like the Jesuits and Augustinians. They put on concerts often by their own musicians or when professional classical music ensembles pay them to use their space. You rarely see that happening in diocesan parishes.
I believe you, Cat, from what you experienced, but I do know in the many Protestant churches I’ve freelanced for in my own state and surrounding states (mostly mainline Protestant denominations, so it might be different for other denominations) those churches actually have enormous endowments for their music programs. I’m talking millions of dollars which is invested for decades, some for a hundred years or more. The only reason I know is because I like to pick the brains of these music directors to see how they make the music programs work. Some of these churches aren’t even wealthy parishes. A few sit in the middle-class/working class neighborhoods in our city. For the modest-living areas, they had one or more very generous donors who left a large amount of money to the church in their wills. Then the congregations themselves value the music program, so will give money towards the endowments. The wealthier churches also have money willed to them, plus well-off parishioners who value the music program. I know one Anglican church just received about a million dollars to use only towards the music program. Then many of these churches throw concerts to help benefit anything that is needed in their churches. I’m very involved with an opera group whose goal is to bring opera and other classical vocal repertoire to the community, as well as raise money to restore the organ at the church where the concerts are held. The concerts are almost always packed. I wish we could do this at the parish where I work, but again, it would be all for naught because none of it would go towards the parish and no one really knows where the money actually does go from asking priests and other people involved. So, at least in my diocese, that is one form of unintentional/intentional “sabotage” of good music programs in parishes.
Now, there are parishes run by individual orders like the Jesuits and Augustinians. They put on concerts often by their own musicians or when professional classical music ensembles pay them to use their space. You rarely see that happening in diocesan parishes.
I believe you, Cat, from what you experienced, but I do know in the many Protestant churches I’ve freelanced for in my own state and surrounding states (mostly mainline Protestant denominations, so it might be different for other denominations) those churches actually have enormous endowments for their music programs. I’m talking millions of dollars which is invested for decades, some for a hundred years or more. The only reason I know is because I like to pick the brains of these music directors to see how they make the music programs work. Some of these churches aren’t even wealthy parishes. A few sit in the middle-class/working class neighborhoods in our city. For the modest-living areas, they had one or more very generous donors who left a large amount of money to the church in their wills. Then the congregations themselves value the music program, so will give money towards the endowments. The wealthier churches also have money willed to them, plus well-off parishioners who value the music program. I know one Anglican church just received about a million dollars to use only towards the music program. Then many of these churches throw concerts to help benefit anything that is needed in their churches. I’m very involved with an opera group whose goal is to bring opera and other classical vocal repertoire to the community, as well as raise money to restore the organ at the church where the concerts are held. The concerts are almost always packed. I wish we could do this at the parish where I work, but again, it would be all for naught because none of it would go towards the parish and no one really knows where the money actually does go from asking priests and other people involved. So, at least in my diocese, that is one form of unintentional/intentional “sabotage” of good music programs in parishes.
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pnewton
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Protestants* tithe*. It is part of their belief.
Here is a link. Note who is on the bottom.
library.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&page=352
adherents.com/misc/giving.html
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The_Curt_Jester
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I know that my own parish could have gotten a nice new pipe organ if it had saved for maybe ten years, but instead the funds have been squandered on unnecessary expense after unnecessary expense. My parish is very poor, currently, too, but if one wants to accomplish something, there is usually a way. The problem is that most places do not want to do anything in regards to this issue.
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rben20
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Thank you for that. You know they tithe when Catholic organists are hired to go play at protestants services but I know plenty who wish they could do the same but at their own Catholic church.
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excubitor
Guest
I have a keyboard at home that produces a pipe organ sound and it cost about $100. Large parishes can afford a proper pipe organ. Small parishes can afford a good keyboard. Where there is a will there is a way.
Obviously my keyboard is quite limited. But played as a tasteful accompaniment to the choir it can still produce a beautiful sound.
In fact I am concerned that large pipe organs can start to dominate the mass. The primary instrument of the mass is the human voice. The human voice costs nothing. Surely it is better to have an unaccompanied choir than non-liturgical instruments like guitars and drums. According to Vatican 2 we should also be emphasising gregorian chant which is the loftiest expression of prayer that can be achieved.
Once this has been mastered, then think about introducing a basic organ as a sublime and subtle background to the chant. Never in all history has it been so cheap and easy to produce an adequate pipe organ sound than it is today with cheap keyboards and electric sound systems.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
Obviously my keyboard is quite limited. But played as a tasteful accompaniment to the choir it can still produce a beautiful sound.
In fact I am concerned that large pipe organs can start to dominate the mass. The primary instrument of the mass is the human voice. The human voice costs nothing. Surely it is better to have an unaccompanied choir than non-liturgical instruments like guitars and drums. According to Vatican 2 we should also be emphasising gregorian chant which is the loftiest expression of prayer that can be achieved.
Once this has been mastered, then think about introducing a basic organ as a sublime and subtle background to the chant. Never in all history has it been so cheap and easy to produce an adequate pipe organ sound than it is today with cheap keyboards and electric sound systems.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
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Bluegoat
Guest
Around here, the little rural churches all have pump organs, which are small, and not that expensive even new. And there are lots of used ones available. Unfortunately they are not used much any more, but I think they are great.
I would really love at least some of my kids to learn to play organ, so I am subtlety encouraging that. No just to create more musicians for the church. I know they have a hard time filling organ scholar positions these days and I figure it is one way to help pay for university when the time comes.
Also, none of my parishes stuff is done on credit, ever. We paid for our organ, and we put a good lot of money to our music program. I think after fixed expenses, it is one of the three largest items with other salaried positions and mission work.
I would really love at least some of my kids to learn to play organ, so I am subtlety encouraging that.
No just to create more musicians for the church. I know they have a hard time filling organ scholar positions these days and I figure it is one way to help pay for university when the time comes.Also, none of my parishes stuff is done on credit, ever. We paid for our organ, and we put a good lot of money to our music program. I think after fixed expenses, it is one of the three largest items with other salaried positions and mission work.
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