Pipe organ held in high esteem--oh, really?!

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I didn’t mean to make it a blanket statement. I was talking about the people who actually say they wouldn’t want to learn more even if they could. I wasn’t attacking you, or musicians in general. This transition isn’t going to be easy. But resisting it simply because you don’t agree isn’t helpful. Again, I’m not referring to you. Actually, you mentioned you might enjoy going to the CMAA event next spring. I envy you!! I’d take any chance I could to go to the CMAA Colloquium!!!

Sounds like a great idea! Now lets go change the world! 😃 Let’s shoot for, say, two weeks from today?
Sounds fun. Who’s organizing it? And producing it? And teaching it?

You see, I always keep hammering on the practicals. The dream is fun, but how can it become a reality? Without an action plan, it will remain an online dream.
 
Sounds fun. Who’s organizing it? And producing it? And teaching it?

You see, I always keep hammering on the practicals. The dream is fun, but how can it become a reality? Without an action plan, it will remain an online dream.
A nice dream, nonetheless!
 
Cat,

You are probably going to shoot me down on this, and every musician here will break into an enourmous spout of laughter, but,…

… is there any chance that a non keyboardist of trained pianist could learn enough fake stuff to play the organ. I know it can be done on piano, you lay down chords and a lead line. I mean, if you could develop an on-line training program to turn guitarists into organist, it might solve a lot of problems.

I figured since we were talking about pipe dreams…
 
Actually, the proper translation from the Latin would be “First place”, so it’s pretty clear what the Church means. The problem is that it was given a very fuzzy translation into “pride of place” and then people make so many interpretations of that.
Good catch.
 
Cat,

You are probably going to shoot me down on this, and every musician here will break into an enourmous spout of laughter, but,…

… is there any chance that a non keyboardist of trained pianist could learn enough fake stuff to play the organ. I know it can be done on piano, you lay down chords and a lead line. I mean, if you could develop an on-line training program to turn guitarists into organist, it might solve a lot of problems.

I figured since we were talking about pipe dreams…
You would probably have to talk to an organ expert, like one of the teachers that was in our faculty last week. They would be able to make an intelligent answer to your query.

One of those professors made the statement and offered supporting statements tha the organ is actually much easier to play than the piano. He spoke about the easier action that requires a lot less hand and finger strength.

I can see his point. So perhaps your idea would be feasible and worth trying.

But I guess I just can’t see taking “shortcuts” just for the sake of having an organ instead of a guitar or a piano.

Would we accept a priest who was trained on a “fast track” to ordination? I mean, what’s the big deal? Toastmasters trains ordinary people to speak in public. And the words of consecration and all of the actions–this could be taught in a few weeks, right? And the order of Mass–couldn’t the priest just use a script like the actors do?

Obviously that sounds not only silly, but dangerous.

I kind of feel the same way about faking a musical instrument. There is a lot more to making music than just doing the mechanics.

A child can play Beethoven’s Fur Elise, and often play it with technical accuracy. But then listen to a professional pianist, a concert pianist, play the same simple piece of music. Under the hands of the experienced pianist, the piece comes alive. It is touching, ethereal, beautiful. It will make us cry. It will recall memories of someone we loved, and we will visualize beautiful settings, lovely smells, and sweet sights.

I believe that as a pianist, I am skilled and experienced enough in both my technique and in my spiritual walk with Jesus, to able to play hymns and other sacred music in such a way that people are touched, encouraged, comforted, and admonished. I often have people come up to me after Mass and say that they were moved to tears by something that I played. People also come up and tell me and the cantor that they felt that the two of us were blending just perfectly, and it made the Mass seem so ethereal to them.

I don’t just play notes and chords, I play music, and I don’t just play music, I play the Word of God written into songs. This is the kind of thing that would disappear if we used the ACME School of Pipe Organ. I have stated several times on the other pipe organ thread that I expect to practice several days a week for at least a year before I will be ready to play anything at Mass. That’s not just me being an anal, prideful perfectionist. That’s me wanting to honor the Lord with the very best, not with a half-butted attempt.

I think that if anything were to change in the wording of the Vatican II document, what I would change is this: “A well-played pipe organ is the instrument of choice…” A pipe organ in and of itself is just a machine, with no holiness. If anything, it has a gaudy, carnival-like appearance compared to a simple, elegant guitar, or a sleek wooden piano.

It is not the machine that honors the Lord. It is well-played music that honors the Lord.
 
Cat,

You are probably going to shoot me down on this, and every musician here will break into an enourmous spout of laughter, but,…

… is there any chance that a non keyboardist of trained pianist could learn enough fake stuff to play the organ. I know it can be done on piano, you lay down chords and a lead line. I mean,** if you could develop an on-line training program to turn guitarists into organist, it might solve a lot of problems.
**
I figured since we were talking about pipe dreams…
Now you have an excuse, just buy some more effects pedals 😉
 
Cat,

You are probably going to shoot me down on this, and every musician here will break into an enourmous spout of laughter, but,…

… is there any chance that a non keyboardist of trained pianist could learn enough fake stuff to play the organ. I know it can be done on piano, you lay down chords and a lead line. I mean, if you could develop an on-line training program to turn guitarists into organist, it might solve a lot of problems.

I figured since we were talking about pipe dreams…
It’s possible. If you can fake on a piano, you can fake the same level on a pipe organ, and so long as you account for the differences in sustain and action, make it sound decent.

It won’t be as good as proper technique and proper practice, but then melody over block chords never is as pleasant as good polyphony.

Basic “passable” organ skills:
Play 1 part on pedal using the left foot
play 2 parts on each hand on different manuals
pick appropriate volumes and manipulate volume with the right foot.
read 2 line grand staff.

(I can’t get the second of these… I have left hand troubles on all keyboards. Pedal was the easiest manual for me to do. And I grew up with an electronic organ in the home.)

Competency includes being able to play 3 parts in either hand with 1 or 2 in the other, pick appropriate voicing registrations, read a grand staff + melody line + pedal line, make appropriate phrasing decisions, and know when to drop a line or note because the piece wasn’t written for organ.

I know people who have hit passable in under a year. I know a professional organist who never learnt appropriate volume and voicing in 40 years.
 
It’s possible. If you can fake on a piano, you can fake the same level on a pipe organ,.
Wow. So someone has actually tried this. I will consider this the next opportunity I have. I have never had piano, but work hard to be passable on at least the major anthem hymns for the various solemnities.
 
Brand-new pipe organs are admittedly quite expensive, and quality electronic organs are too, albeit significantly less than pipes. Used pipe organs, however, can be frequently purchased for a few thousand dollars. They might date from the 1950’s or earlier, but they can often last for many decades more. One parish I know bought a 9-rank Reuter pipe organ from the mid-1920’s for $8,000. For about that much more, it was installed and rebuilt by a professional organbuilder and three ranks were added. Large electronic organs from the 80’s and 90’s by Allen or Rodgers routinely appear on Craigslist and EBay for less than $3,000. I recently obtained two older Allen organs for absolutely nothing and both sound very good. A good electronic organ will operate just the same as a pipe organ, even if the tone quality isn’t quite as good. Many even have an automatic pedal setting for pianists who have not yet mastered the pedals. Where there’s a will, and prayer, there’s a way.
 
As both a piano-player and an organ-player (not an -ist in either case), I have been following this thread with interest and some amusement, and there is something that nobody has mentioned.

Both pipe and electronic organs require electricity. We had a lengthy power outage after the recent tornadoes, although the part of town where the parish church is located did have power for the following Sunday’s Masses. But what about the extended power outages that some folks are predicting? If there is no juice to power the organ, and if the piano is too percussive for liturgical music, then the only alternative is…the accordion?

😃
 
Pipe organ is “IT” for me.

However, in our world the reality is that our parish has about 100 families and dwindling, a few young families, and a struggling budget, usually spending more than income.

Someone in the distant past, when the former organ died, purchased a stage piano, a Roland, and that’s what we have, and that’s all we’ll have. Were we ever to have a volunteer organist, we could not provide the worthy instrument. As it is, we have a pianist, a guitarist, and a gentleman who plays every other Sunday who has just purchased a home organ on which to practice. But yet, we only have the keyboard.

It does have at least 8 organ voices, that can be changed with digital enhancements, and sounds as good as we can make it. It isn’t a a pipe organ, doesn’t sound like one and never will, but it is all we have.

Regarding chant, we have introduced chanting in English the entrance antiphon, with Latin Gloria tibi, and the Kyrie during Lent. But what a fuss we get when we use the Latin Sanctus, Mysterium fidi, and Amen. I think that Latin chant would be more acceptable if we had a singing priest, but we don’t. Fr. tells us that in seminary he was told not to sing during the complusory attendance choir/chant/singing classes. I suspect he is telling the truth!
 
As both a piano-player and an organ-player (not an -ist in either case), I have been following this thread with interest and some amusement, and there is something that nobody has mentioned.

Both pipe and electronic organs require electricity. We had a lengthy power outage after the recent tornadoes, although the part of town where the parish church is located did have power for the following Sunday’s Masses. But what about the extended power outages that some folks are predicting? If there is no juice to power the organ, and if the piano is too percussive for liturgical music, then the only alternative is…the accordion?

😃
The last church I played for had a 130-year old tracker organ with its hand-pump mechanism fully intact. One Sunday morning the electricity went off and I was able to blurt out for help during the playing of the final hymn and was assisted by a parishoner with a good arm for feeding the bellows. I never lost control as their was a few second reserve in the resevoir. This is a true story!
 
The last church I played for had a 130-year old tracker organ with its hand-pump mechanism fully intact. One Sunday morning the electricity went off and I was able to blurt out for help during the playing of the final hymn and was assisted by a parishoner with a good arm for feeding the bellows. I never lost control as their was a few second reserve in the resevoir. This is a true story!
“When Organists lose control…”

Sounds like it should be the title of a bad horror flick.
 
As both a piano-player and an organ-player (not an -ist in either case), I have been following this thread with interest and some amusement, and there is something that nobody has mentioned.

Both pipe and electronic organs require electricity. We had a lengthy power outage after the recent tornadoes, although the part of town where the parish church is located did have power for the following Sunday’s Masses. But what about the extended power outages that some folks are predicting? If there is no juice to power the organ, and if the piano is too percussive for liturgical music, then the only alternative is…the accordion?

😃
How about a capella. Why are people so afraid of this? A lot of chant, maybe even most chant is sung a cappella, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
 
How about a capella. Why are people so afraid of this? A lot of chant, maybe even most chant is sung a cappella, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Because we have become accustomed to the “praise band” way of thinking where everything has to be plugged in and amplified. And in so many of the carpeted (living room) churches these days with dead acoustics, people hold back in singing because they end up hearing themselves sing instead of being part of the greater group.

Think outside of the box. Why not lead with violin, flute, recorder, piano, etc?
 
As both a piano-player and an organ-player (not an -ist in either case), I have been following this thread with interest and some amusement, and there is something that nobody has mentioned.

Both pipe and electronic organs require electricity. We had a lengthy power outage after the recent tornadoes, although the part of town where the parish church is located did have power for the following Sunday’s Masses. But what about the extended power outages that some folks are predicting? If there is no juice to power the organ, and if the piano is too percussive for liturgical music, then the only alternative is…the accordion?

😃
I’ve seen a reverent mass with an accordion accompaniment. Ok, so it was all sung in Polish and Latin. Still, it was reverent. Ave Maria, Oh Sanctissima; mass parts in Polish.

With all seriousness, tho’, the instrument isn’t what makes mass reverent. it’s the attitude of those present. I’ve seen reverent masses with electric guitars and trap kits. (Immaculate Mary actually does quite well when sung to a soft-rock beat.)

And I’ve seen irreverent masses with Organ accompaniment and questionable music.

Pipe Organ has pride of place, and is worthy of use. But it’s not the only option.

If you want pipe organ, train some organists. Pay for their lessons, and put them on a contract.
 
How about a capella. Why are people so afraid of this? A lot of chant, maybe even most chant is sung a cappella, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I do not think fear is the reason why there is not more chant. There are several factors. Most of us are trained in a different type of music notation. There is also an emphasis on using music that is conducive to worship in a particular parish. Finally, if one actually likes everyone to sing on the same pitch, some parishes might need a little help. I guess it could be done with a single note played to assist in this.
 
The last church I played for had a 130-year old tracker organ with its hand-pump mechanism fully intact. One Sunday morning the electricity went off and I was able to blurt out for help during the playing of the final hymn and was assisted by a parishoner with a good arm for feeding the bellows. I never lost control as their was a few second reserve in the resevoir. This is a true story!
Good on you and on your rescuer!
“When Organists lose control…”

Sounds like it should be the title of a bad horror flick.
:rotfl:
How about a capella. Why are people so afraid of this? A lot of chant, maybe even most chant is sung a cappella, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Because the Catholic congregations that I’ve been in, for the most part, can’t sing a capella; they have no training in it. I hold no brief for Church of Christ theology, but they do manage a capella singing rather well. They’ve done it all their lives, and they have hymnbooks printed with all four SATB parts, so the respective vocal ranges can read what they’re supposed to be singing. With the lead-sheet hymnbooks that we have, I (a bass) have to try to follow the pedal part of the organ to improvise a bass line. Just once I’d like to have a good SATB quartet sit together and sing one of those hymns like it was meant to be sung.

But I digress. Cat, you’re being much too hard on yourself. I, too, came to organ from piano, but I had come to piano from accordion, which means that I was already used to a non-percussive sound that had to be held with the fingers. Give yourself a chance, even if it means playing three-note chords with the right hand on one manual and a single-note bass line on another manual with the left hand, if you don’t trust your feet on the pedals. Trust me on this, not a lot of people will even notice the difference.

FWIW, my fave organ to play is the Hammond C3 with a full Leslie cabinet, but I’ll guaran-dang-tee you that you won’t see one of those used at Mass :bigyikes:
 
FWIW, my fave organ to play is the Hammond C3 with a full Leslie cabinet, but I’ll guaran-dang-tee you that you won’t see one of those used at Mass :bigyikes:
The leslie cabinet or the C3???

I’ve seen several hammond organs used at masses.
 
The leslie cabinet or the C3???

I’ve seen several hammond organs used at masses.
Either one. When I sit down at a Hammond, I’m in an entirely different zone, ready for some kickin’ Southern Gospel!

😃
 
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