Pipe organ held in high esteem--oh, really?!

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In fact I am concerned that large pipe organs can start to dominate the mass. The primary instrument of the mass is the human voice. The human voice costs nothing. .
Well, I don’t know about it costing nothing. To be classically trained in voice (which most church singing musicians are… ie. the ones who sing polyphony, chant, etc.) you are spending a pretty penny. I’ve been studying voice since I was 13. I still work with my current teacher for coaching and such even though I do work professionally now. I can honestly say that both my parents (when I was younger) and I have spent thousands of dollars to master the vocal instrument and the art of singing. I know that one of my Julliard trained colleagues spent about $100,000.00 on his entire education just there… not including all the training, coaching received before and after. (He went back to Julliard for his masters, so that’s more.)

Many church choirs have paid section leaders. At a typical place they might get about $100-$200 per mass with a rehearsal included. And if we want to use just a volunteer choir, you still have to pay the choir master/music director. You need to help train those who aren’t used to singing in tune without the help of an outside instrument.

But I think I also get what you’re saying… an organ to buy is a huge load of cash all at one time, whereas a church can get a group of people who might spend that same load of cash themselves over a period of years to perfect their own individual instrument. They may have to still pay the singers (I’m one of the few cantors I know of who is paid in a Catholic church), but not the same amount as having to pay a salary to an on-staff organist or to buy a real pipe organ outright.

Honestly, though, although I love and respect unaccompanied vocal music, the organ, when played well, is a wonderful part of the liturgy. It can serve its purpose by being a support to the congregation and can be absolutely thrilling or gently moving when used as just a solo piece to meditate upon.
 
But I think I also get what you’re saying… an organ to buy is a huge load of cash all at one time, whereas a church can get a group of people who might spend that same load of cash themselves over a period of years to perfect their own individual instrument.
I also wonder what this cost would be in comparison with royalty fees that are paid to the ICEL and others for the music itself.

icelweb.org/copyright.htm
 
I have a keyboard at home that produces a pipe organ sound and it cost about $100. Large parishes can afford a proper pipe organ. Small parishes can afford a good keyboard. Where there is a will there is a way.

Obviously my keyboard is quite limited. But played as a tasteful accompaniment to the choir it can still produce a beautiful sound.

In fact I am concerned that large pipe organs can start to dominate the mass. The primary instrument of the mass is the human voice. The human voice costs nothing. Surely it is better to have an unaccompanied choir than non-liturgical instruments like guitars and drums. According to Vatican 2 we should also be emphasising gregorian chant which is the loftiest expression of prayer that can be achieved.

Once this has been mastered, then think about introducing a basic organ as a sublime and subtle background to the chant. Never in all history has it been so cheap and easy to produce an adequate pipe organ sound than it is today with cheap keyboards and electric sound systems.

Where there is a will, there is a way.
Excellent point! Good post!

I have spent time in quite a few churches this week having lessons and doing practices. In many of these churches, the pipe organ sits front and center. It is the focal point of the room, a huge “idol” of sorts.

Several times, I have had thoughts this week that to an outsider, it would appear that it is the pipe organ that we are worshipping.

In our parish, it is off to the side, but it is still huge and quite prominent. A pipe organ is a spectacular-looking instrument, whether old or new.

So yes, I think it could end up distracting people from worshipping the Lord Jesus.

I disagree about using a “good keyboard”. This “good keyboard” costing $100 doesn’t sound like an organ or any kind of church instrument. It sounds like a cheap keyboard that cost $100.

These are the kinds of keyboards that you buy your children to play “rock band” on in the garage. They don’t have enough sound (volume) to be adequate to play for congregational singing, and the people in the pews can’t hear them, unless you hook them up to an amplifier, and that looks really inappropriate in a Catholic church building. Also, sometimes it still doesn’t work in amplifying the sound of a cheap keyboard, and there is a lot of rattling and vibrating. Yuck.

I’ll be honest, I hate playing these kinds of keyboards. I don’t use the word hate very often, but I’ll use it here.

Of course if a parish is very poor and this would be the best that they can do, then it would be an acceptable “offering” of music to the Lord.

But for many parishes in the U.S., such a “toy” keyboard would be an insult to God, IMO. We need to give the best, not our leftovers.

If members have the money to buy huge homes, nice cars, and get their children involved in various sports and arts activities, then they have the money to give towards the purchase of a good organ and/or piano, and still have money to give to the poor, and to various missions, and of course, to the regular expenses of their parish.
 
I think in many parishes, there is a lot of “pressure” on the church leaders (priests) to use offering monies to help the poor.

It seems elitist to spend money on a huge pipe organ that will only be seen by a small number of people.

Now like I said in another post, many of the people in many U.S. parishes are quite well-off, and it wouldn’t hurt us that much to not only give a lot of money to help the poor, but to also give a lot of money to buy a pipe organ for the parish.

But that doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t seem right somehow to a lot of people to buy a pipe organ while in your city, families are suffering, people are out of work, and children are hungry.

Also, I think a lot of people in a parish question–and rightfully so–who will actually play the pipe organ once it is built and installed. One thing I became aware of this week is just how few pipe organists are around. People are not beating down the doors to learn to play the pipe organ!
 
Several times, I have had thoughts this week that to an outsider, it would appear that it is the pipe organ that we are worshipping.
Fair point. But one could use the same argument for a good human voice or the music or melody itself. Then again one could say he/she hears the vox Dei (voice of God) when the majestic pipe organ is played.
 
Fair point. But one could use the same argument for a good human voice or the music or melody itself. Then again one could say he/she hears the vox Dei (voice of God) when the majestic pipe organ is played.
But it’s not the voice of God. It’s a machine, a group of metal and wooden tubes, a system of bellows, and a device, usually a keyboard, that makes these pipes and bellows produce music.

That’s not Cat talking, BTW, that’s what one of our professors told us this week. Interestingly, this professor is the ONE faculty member who is the organist in a Catholic church. All the other faculty members play in Protestant churches.

I believe that God can speak through music, but I don’t believe that the music itself is God’s voice. That’s not what you meant, is it?
 
Fair point. But one could use the same argument for a good human voice or the music or melody itself. Then again one could say he/she hears the vox Dei (voice of God) when the majestic pipe organ is played.
I think there can always be the “danger” of making an idol out of anything. For certain people, it could be the music itself, the pipe organ, a beautiful voice or even the guitar. I do wonder if that is one of the reasons why organs and choir lofts in older churches are built to be in the back - behind the congregation - so that you only hear them and not see them. Also, it gives this effect of hearing the voices of angels and heavenly instruments from above, rather than seeing and hearing it at the same level. Not to mention I think, acoustically, it’s best to hear the voice un-amplified from above.

I recently cantored a mass where the priest during the homily talked about the different ways people achieve fulfillment and splendor in their faith in addition to the Holy Eucharist. He focused on the use of beauty to reach spiritual fulfillment and oneness with God. More specifically, he used sacred music as an example of beauty. Some people, I believe, do hear the “vox Dei” as you described it, through the beauty of music. I know that Benedict also talked about organ in one of his lectures/writings as it being considered the “voice of the cosmos” prior to being used as a sacred instrument. It was one of the reasons why the Church desired to take it on completely as a sacred instrument. God would speak through the sounds of the organ.

For me, music is one of the main things that helps me transcend this world to spiritual fulfillment. When I sing, I pray. It doesn’t matter what it is. When I hear an instrument played almost perfectly (let’s face it, we musicians are never completely perfect. Even the best musicians have little mistakes here or there. It’s a rare and momentous thing when we can be completely and utterly perfect in our music-making) or hear beautiful music, it is a prayer for me. It is like hearing God.

An organ can be like that… in the right hands, of course. 😉 I think if I played it, someone might think I was making sounds from below. :o
 
I thought I should post the actual wording by Benedict in case I didn’t describe it well in my previous post. Here is a tiny snippet from Benedict XVI’s article Crux et Cithara (1983) which he describes much more eloquently than how I tried. It was originally a lecture published under “Church Music, a Spiritual and Intellectual Discipline”.

It’s interesting history.
This implies that the Church’s liturgy, which now regards the whole cosmos as its temple, must have a cosmic character, must make the whole cosmos resound. On this point, Peterson‘s comment, though certainly somewhat exaggerated, is basically quite worthy of consideration:
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And finally it is not by pure coincidence that the mediaeval music theorists begin their treatises by referring to the harmony of the spheres. Since the Church’s hymn of praise tunes in to the praises of the cosmos, any consideration of the musical element in the Church’s cult must also take into account the sort of praise offered by sun, moon, and stars.16
What this means in concreto becomes clearer when we recall the prayer in Ps. Cyprian which speaks of God as the One Who is praised by angels, archangels, martyrs, apostles and prophets,
Code:
to whom all the birds sing praises, whom the tongues of those in heaven, upon the earth and under the earth glorify: all the waters in heaven and under the heavens confess Thee. …17
This text is especially interesting because it discloses, so to speak, the theological principle according to which the “organon” was understood, for it was simply called “the” instrument as opposed to all the others. The organ is a theological instrument whose original home was the cult of the emperor. When the Emperor of Byzantium spoke, an organ played. On the other hand the organ was supposed to be the combination of all the voices of the cosmos. Accordingly, the organ music at imperial utterances meant that when the divine emperor spoke, the entire universe resounded. As a divine utterance, his statement is the resounding of all the voices in the cosmos. The “organon” is the cosmic instrument and as such the voice of the world’s ruler, the imperator.18 As against this Byzantine custom, Rome stressed a cosmic Christology and on that basis the cosmis function of Christ’s Vicar on earth: what was good enough for the Emperor was quite good enough for the Pope. Naturally, it is not a case here of superficial problems concerning prestige, but it is a matter of the public, political and cultic representation of the mandates received in each case. To the exclusivity of an imperial theology which abandoned the Church to the Emperor and degraded the bishops to mere imperial functionaries,19 Rome opposed the Pope’s cosmic claim and with it the cosmic rank of belief in Christ, which is independent of and indeed superior to politics. Therefore the organ had to resound in the papal liturgy as well.
Such a borrowing from imperial theology is not regarded with favour by contemporary theological scholarship, which considers such acceptance as “Constantinian” or as “Romanisation,” which is naturally far worse than Hellenisation. As a matter of fact, what has been said thus far suffices to indicate clearly the convincing reasons for the whole process, as well as its logic within a Christian context: this detour made it possible to avoid turning the Church into a synagogue and to carry out in practise the true claim of the Christian faith, which accepts the inheritance of the Temple and surpasses it by far, into the very dimensions of the Universal.
**Furthermore, the history of the organ remained a theo-political history for quite a long time: **the fact that an organ resounds at the Carolingian court is an expression of the Carolingian claim to equality with Byzantium. Conversely, the Roman usage was transferred to the cathedrals and abbey churches. **Less than a lifetime ago it was still customary for the organ to play as background to the abbot’s recitation of the Pater noster in Benedictine abbeys, and this is to be understood as a direct inheritance from the ancient cosmic liturgy.**20
 
Well, I don’t know about it costing nothing. To be classically trained in voice (which most church singing musicians are… ie. the ones who sing polyphony, chant, etc.) you are spending a pretty penny. I’ve been studying voice since I was 13. I still work with my current teacher for coaching and such even though I do work professionally now. I can honestly say that both my parents (when I was younger) and I have spent thousands of dollars to master the vocal instrument and the art of singing. I know that one of my Julliard trained colleagues spent about $100,000.00 on his entire education just there… not including all the training, coaching received before and after. (He went back to Julliard for his masters, so that’s more.)

Many church choirs have paid section leaders. At a typical place they might get about $100-$200 per mass with a rehearsal included. And if we want to use just a volunteer choir, you still have to pay the choir master/music director. You need to help train those who aren’t used to singing in tune without the help of an outside instrument.

But I think I also get what you’re saying… an organ to buy is a huge load of cash all at one time, whereas a church can get a group of people who might spend that same load of cash themselves over a period of years to perfect their own individual instrument. They may have to still pay the singers (I’m one of the few cantors I know of who is paid in a Catholic church), but not the same amount as having to pay a salary to an on-staff organist or to buy a real pipe organ outright.

Honestly, though, although I love and respect unaccompanied vocal music, the organ, when played well, is a wonderful part of the liturgy. It can serve its purpose by being a support to the congregation and can be absolutely thrilling or gently moving when used as just a solo piece to meditate upon.
I disagree. It’s not necessary to financially compensate the choir or the schola. If the church can afford to then fine, but surely the vast majority of choirs and scholas are volunteers and have had no formal training in singing. Singing lessons are usually not taken so that one can sing in the choir at church and if so, they are not a cost to the church but to the private individual.
 
Excellent point! Good post!

I have spent time in quite a few churches this week having lessons and doing practices. In many of these churches, the pipe organ sits front and center. It is the focal point of the room, a huge “idol” of sorts.

Several times, I have had thoughts this week that to an outsider, it would appear that it is the pipe organ that we are worshipping.

In our parish, it is off to the side, but it is still huge and quite prominent. A pipe organ is a spectacular-looking instrument, whether old or new.

So yes, I think it could end up distracting people from worshipping the Lord Jesus.

I disagree about using a “good keyboard”. This “good keyboard” costing $100 doesn’t sound like an organ or any kind of church instrument. It sounds like a cheap keyboard that cost $100.

These are the kinds of keyboards that you buy your children to play “rock band” on in the garage. They don’t have enough sound (volume) to be adequate to play for congregational singing, and the people in the pews can’t hear them, unless you hook them up to an amplifier, and that looks really inappropriate in a Catholic church building. Also, sometimes it still doesn’t work in amplifying the sound of a cheap keyboard, and there is a lot of rattling and vibrating. Yuck.

I’ll be honest, I hate playing these kinds of keyboards. I don’t use the word hate very often, but I’ll use it here.

Of course if a parish is very poor and this would be the best that they can do, then it would be an acceptable “offering” of music to the Lord.

But for many parishes in the U.S., such a “toy” keyboard would be an insult to God, IMO. We need to give the best, not our leftovers.

If members have the money to buy huge homes, nice cars, and get their children involved in various sports and arts activities, then they have the money to give towards the purchase of a good organ and/or piano, and still have money to give to the poor, and to various missions, and of course, to the regular expenses of their parish.
I agree with your comments about keyboards to a certain extent. OK maybe $100 dollars was a bit cheap, but there are thousands of second hand electronic organs which are perfectly fine instruments which have fallen into disuse and can be had for $100 or next to nothing. I am just saying the same thing as you are, that it is an acceptable “offering” to the Lord for a poor parish. Of course I agree that the church should buy the best instrument it can afford for the glory of God. My point is that a cheap electronic organ or keyboard with an organ sound played subtley in accompinament to the choir is vastly superior to a piano or guitar or any other kind of non-liturgical instrument. I am merely countering the argument that because a parish is poor, then they need to use guitars.

The reed organ (pump organ) idea of someone else is also an excellent option.
 
The primary instrument of the mass is the human voice. The human voice costs nothing. Surely it is better to have an unaccompanied choir than non-liturgical instruments like guitars and drums.
That is why I only use a liturgical guitar and piano, as permitted in the Catholic Church. I disagree that having everything acapella is better. This thread has reminded me, once again, of the wisdom of the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. It is only the priest and bishops close to an individual parish that can determine, with in the limits of the Church’s guidelines, what is best at that parish. I think Cat’s initial point was very valid. Practical considerations must be weighed. For example. My parish (1200 families) has not one organist. I am the only one that can even play a little on a piano. The ideal must give way to the real. This is not to say that the organ has no place of pride in the Church. We contributed our share to the capital compaign a few years ago that helped build the new cathedral with its Opus XIX pipe organ.
archgh.org/Newsroom/Fact-and-Backgrounders/Pipe-Organ/
 
That is why I only use a liturgical guitar and piano, as permitted in the Catholic Church. I disagree that having everything acapella is better. This thread has reminded me, once again, of the wisdom of the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. It is only the priest and bishops close to an individual parish that can determine, with in the limits of the Church’s guidelines, what is best at that parish. I think Cat’s initial point was very valid. Practical considerations must be weighed. For example. My parish (1200 families) has not one organist. I am the only one that can even play a little on a piano. The ideal must give way to the real. This is not to say that the organ has no place of pride in the Church. We contributed our share to the capital compaign a few years ago that helped build the new cathedral with its Opus XIX pipe organ.
archgh.org/Newsroom/Fact-and-Backgrounders/Pipe-Organ/
Bless you. Thank you.

What do you think of the argument that some have presented, that since Pope Benedict XVI has said that guitars and pianos are not appropriate for Mass, that the directives of the bishops to the contrary are wrong, and that we should listen to and obey our Holy Father rather than our bishop?

In other words, does the “opinion” of the Pope trump the “established authority” of the bishop/priest? IS it wrong of a bishop to disregard the Pope’s “opinion?” What should the lay people do when the bishop is allowing something (pianos, guitars) that the Pope has said are not appropriate for Mass?
 
Bless you. Thank you.

What do you think of the argument that some have presented, that since Pope Benedict XVI has said that guitars and pianos are not appropriate for Mass, that the directives of the bishops to the contrary are wrong…
I would be skeptical of such a claim. The last person who made that claim exaggerated and was actually dead wrong. Yet, opinions are not the law of the Church. The Holy Father can make adjustments to the rules of the Mass. If he really thought they were not appropriate for Mass, and he was confident in his opinion, it would be simple enough to issue such a statement.
 
In many of these churches, the pipe organ sits front and center. It is the focal point of the room, a huge “idol” of sorts.
I would agree that “front and center” would be a distraction, though welcome at times, but it is a distraction. But then the same could be said for a guitarist or pianist or any vocalist, unless they are stationed in the back or in the balcony. But even there, if they are too good, no doubt heads will turn and wish to applaud. There needs to be a balance somewhere, and each church configuration, with perhaps the help of the bishop, will have to find its own solution for that.
 
I disagree. It’s not necessary to financially compensate the choir or the schola. If the church can afford to then fine, but surely the vast majority of choirs and scholas are volunteers and have had no formal training in singing.
I always found it funny that many people don’t realize that the voice is just as much of an instrument as something that is man-made. There is a belief among some people that if the person can sing mostly on pitch, that’s good enough. Problem is if we are looking at singing “classical” repertoire, it isn’t “good enough” and you run the risk of turning people off to that music without some proper training and leadership. It’s like telling a pianist that since he can play on a piano, he can just plop himself right down on the organ bench and play the organ. Sure, a person might be able to fake hymns by only playing on one manual, but that is certainly not “good enough” and it certainly won’t inspire any other budding musician to take up the organ.

If people want to see unaccompanied vocal music at mass, especially polyphony and some of the more difficult chants, you need voices that have some training. The voice is a difficult instrument to master and to make it sound just as good as any decent instrumentalist.

Well, as we all know, many Catholic churches don’t pay their musicians - instrumentalists included - and thus we are in this pickle of not having even competent musicians, which includes singers and possibly turning people off to that kind of music in general. I agree that you could have a volunteer choir where most, if not all, have no formal training in singing, but the quality, especially for choir which would do mostly polyphonic music and chant, would be extremely lacking WITHOUT a VERY COMPETENT music director. It’s also the reason why some churches hire section leaders in order to help the non-musician singers out and to hold a piece together if it starts to fall apart due to the lack of training for many of the volunteer singers.

I’ve been part of volunteer choirs either as a volunteer or a paid section leader since I’m a singer who is also a musician 😛 . If they had a good director who worked hard with them to learn and to give them vocal exercises, even lessons in order to refine their voices for this kind of music, they did a beautiful job. Sometimes they sounded very professional and sometimes you could tell when they were having some trouble for whatever reason - bad day, many voice parts not showing up, not having enough tenors or basses or altos (most choirs have more sopranos than they can handle). These choirs were able to pull it together because of an excellent director, who is the reason why those were successful in getting many people interested in that kind of music - myself included as I was a young, college-age musician/singer just looking to strengthen my sight-singing skills by singing alto.

Conversely, I’ve heard choirs which do make a good attempt to sing, but had no real leadership or a director who wanted to bring in this kind of music, but did not have the ability to pull it together. I’ve sometimes been hired for special masses to be a section leader because the director knew it couldn’t be pulled off. You could tell that the voices were not warmed up, the sopranos sounded shrill and detached, the altos flat, the tenors and sometimes the altos non-existent, or the tenors sounding like they were being strangled and the basses sounding like they were some huge foghorn. I give these choirs A LOT of credit for trying, but I will admit that if I were someone who had no experience with this music and heard that, I’d be turned off and would not be interested in learning it and hearing it at mass. To me it’s much similar to people I work with who are turned off by the organ or certain instruments/voices due to lack of competency.

So, ok, we don’t pay the singers, but if we are going to take a chance with that, you are still going to have to pay a music director who knows what he/she is doing, especially with this kind of choral music. And you are going to have to pay him/her well, since we don’t want to have competent singers. And sometimes, if the music is totally falling to bits, the choir director will have to use the organ or whatever instrument they have to help pull them together and back on track.
Singing lessons are usually not taken so that one can sing in the choir at church and if so, they are not a cost to the church but to the private individual.
I have to beg to differ. I know many professional choral singers whose main objective was to do choral work - mainly in high-church denominations. They do it because their voices are the natural, hardly-any-vibrato kind of voices and are “perfect” for early music. (I’m not a particular fan of no-vibrato singing for myself, but I see the beauty in it for certain music.) They get paid well and the music programs in those churches are pretty excellent. Then, I know that there are the typical choral singers who want to take lessons to improve their voices for their choir so that they can sing this kind of music competently. In my area, they might pay $50-$100 for an hour lesson.

You are right, though, as I have also mentioned in my previous post, this is is all at the cost of the individual and not the church. Fortunately, the parish where I work sees the value of having a trained musician/singer as they see the value of having a trained organist on staff and is willing to compensate us to at least cover some of our expenses. In a way they are spoiled because when it was brought up about perhaps bringing in a guitar once in a while, the congregation were up in arms. They absolutely DID NOT want it. They are fortunate that they have an organist who can play.
 
This thread has reminded me, once again, of the wisdom of the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. It is only the priest and bishops close to an individual parish that can determine, with in the limits of the Church’s guidelines, what is best at that parish.


This response seems to be a misinterpretation of a post that voices the opinion that it would better to have an unaccompanied choir than to make use of guitar and drums. You make it seem as though the writer said that guitars and drums CANNOT be used, when in fact he/she was only giving the opinion about what he/she thought was better.

As a music minister, you have to make these kind of decisions yourself every week, based on what you think would be “better” (from the body of “allowable” music - which, by the way, if we follow the principle of "subsidiaity, is just about anything).
 
This response seems to be a misinterpretation of a post that voices the opinion that …
I did not claim to represent any post. Therefore, it is hardly a misrepresentation. I should have put a paragraph in between my response to excubitor and my subsequent thought. I will endeavor to be more clear.

Many of the people post here fully aware of the differences between opinion or judgement on one had, and official teaching and discipline on the other. I think others forget this distinction and their place. If one looks critically at other’s of posts, this becomes easy to spot.
 
I did not claim to represent any post. Therefore, it is hardly a misrepresentation. .
I did not write “misrepresent”, I wrote “misINTERPRET”. Two different words. Please look more critically at the posts, perhaps this is one of the reasons why it seems that you misinterpret so many.
 
I did not write “misrepresent”, I wrote “misINTERPRET”. Two different words. Please look more critically at the posts, perhaps this is one of the reasons why it seems that you misinterpret so many.
Okay, I did not “interpret” any post. Please hold off on insults, like saying I misinterpret so many posts. First, you haven’t been here long enough to make such a statement. Second, it violates the rules of charity to insult or slander someone.
 
Okay, I did not “interpret” any post. Please hold off on insults, like saying I misinterpret so many posts.
I wasn’t insulting you, it was just an observation, and I felt as though the others needed to be defended. Please do not take such offense.
 
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