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EasterRabbit
Guest
“Caari” means like the lion, how does that suit with the crusification?
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Damascus
Guest
Hello Easter Rabbit. I dont know what you mean. Could you elaborate a bit for the “slower” learners like myself?
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LilyM
Guest
I think the poster is referring to Psalm 22 and the Crucifixion
Need a little typing or spelling practice there
There do seem to be a couple of different meanings attached to Psalm 22 - clearly, since Jesus quoted it from the Cross, he meant to apply it to himself.
The image in Psalm 22 of the man surrounded, tormented, tortured (and killed?) by bloodthirsty enemies, feeling abandoned by God, could easily apply to Jesus at the crucifixion, he was and felt all those things.
Need a little typing or spelling practice there
There do seem to be a couple of different meanings attached to Psalm 22 - clearly, since Jesus quoted it from the Cross, he meant to apply it to himself.
The image in Psalm 22 of the man surrounded, tormented, tortured (and killed?) by bloodthirsty enemies, feeling abandoned by God, could easily apply to Jesus at the crucifixion, he was and felt all those things.
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EasterRabbit
Guest
Sorry, English is not my first language.I think the poster is referring to Psalm 22 and the Crucifixion
Need a little typing or spelling practice there
There do seem to be a couple of different meanings attached to Psalm 22 - clearly, since Jesus quoted it from the Cross, he meant to apply it to himself.
The image in Psalm 22 of the man surrounded, tormented, tortured (and killed?) by bloodthirsty enemies, feeling abandoned by God, could easily apply to Jesus at the crucifixion, he was and felt all those things.
But verse 17, in Hebrew, is כארי ידי ורגלי, caari yaday veraglay, what means “my hands and feed and like the lion”. How does that fit in?
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Damascus
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Thanks Lily M!
I see. Well, good point Lily M.
I am going to turn it around for a second. Imagine how we at times feel God has forsaken us, and that our enemies are attacking us all the time? Hmm.
Jesus shared in our lives here. He knows what we suffer. We are to share in his suffering in the Cross in our lives. Hmmm.
I think the OT was quoted on the Cross by Christ to illustrate how He has Fulfilled the OT and it was complete at that harrowing moment he died–Mary watching it all…:crying: :crying: :crying:
Sorry to digress a bit… I cant think of the Crucifiction without the image in my mind of her face…
The horror of it all! :crying:
What do you think Easter Rabbit?
I see. Well, good point Lily M.
I am going to turn it around for a second. Imagine how we at times feel God has forsaken us, and that our enemies are attacking us all the time? Hmm.
Jesus shared in our lives here. He knows what we suffer. We are to share in his suffering in the Cross in our lives. Hmmm.
I think the OT was quoted on the Cross by Christ to illustrate how He has Fulfilled the OT and it was complete at that harrowing moment he died–Mary watching it all…:crying: :crying: :crying:
Sorry to digress a bit… I cant think of the Crucifiction without the image in my mind of her face…
The horror of it all!
:crying:What do you think Easter Rabbit?
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Damascus
Guest
Well, we are to be the “hands” and “feet” of Jesus Christ Our Risen Lord…
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Valke2
Guest
Who was there to hear the quote from Psalm 22? None of the writers of the Gospels, right?I think the poster is referring to Psalm 22 and the Crucifixion
Need a little typing or spelling practice there
There do seem to be a couple of different meanings attached to Psalm 22 - clearly, since Jesus quoted it from the Cross, he meant to apply it to himself.
The image in Psalm 22 of the man surrounded, tormented, tortured (and killed?) by bloodthirsty enemies, feeling abandoned by God, could easily apply to Jesus at the crucifixion, he was and felt all those things.
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LilyM
Guest
Who was there to hear God talk to Adam or Noah? Not the writer or writers of Genesis, right?
Tradition is that the writer of the Gospel of John was indeed the very same beloved disciple who WAS there at the foot of the Cross with Jesus’ mother.
Even if he didn’t write that saying himself he may well have told it to the others (such as the writer of Matthew, who was another Apostle) and thus it came to be written down. And she definitely was with the other Apostles between the Ascension and Pentecost, so she could have verified it as well.
John himself states he didn’t write EVERYTHING that Jesus did or said.
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Valke2
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I thought that all the disciples left before the end. Is Jesus quoting from Psalm 22 in the Gospel according to John?
The difference being that (generally) christians and jews acknowledge that the Torah (5 books of Moses) was the word of God. The Gospels are not given that status, if I recall what has been said on these threads correctly. THey are inspired writings and witness accounts but they are not the word of God.
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Damascus
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Valke2, if you dont mind me asking you is this Easter Bunny right about the word in Hewbrew? Not that I question the OP, I just know you know your stuff.
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LilyM
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No, Psalm 22 isn’t in John’s account of the Crucifixion.
Among Christians the Gospels are indeed the word of God on the same level with any of the Old Testament. The occasional (possible) minor lapses in scientific or historical veracity doesn’t prevent them from being such - there are plenty to be found in the Old Testament too.
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Della
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John was there, as well as Mary. However, John doesn’t cite it in his Gospel. But, Matthew and Mark do, so John or Mary must have told them about it, as well as everything else they witnessed or others related to Matthew and Mark. What is in the Gospels is what was known by the whole community of believers at the time, not just those who wrote them down.
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Valke2
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about the word meaning lion? Yes. The explanation is a little different. I’ll look for it later. (My hebrew is weak).
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wardrandolph
Guest
hello,Take a look at Mt.27:33-50,Mk.15:22-37.I always thought the Gospels account of the Crucifixion was looking up at the Cross(eye wittness).To me Ps.22 is a view looking down from the Cross.This is what our Lord saw,and felt.The Psalmist could not have been talking about himself.What do you think?
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Damascus
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Thanks! I know you will tell it like it is. Take your time, this post looks like its not going to get much attention anyway.
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Valke2
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It was my understanding that the Catholic Church does not view the Gospels as the direct word of God. I’m not talking about scientific or historial lapses, if any. I’m talking strictly theology. Jewish tradition holds that the Torah was given by God to Moses. I didn’t think Christian tradition held that the Gospels were given by God to whoever wrote them.
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Valke2
Guest
Dogs have encompassed me.
A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they
are at my hands and my feet.
The Hebrew word Kaari (which is what I think the OP was discussing), appears in other places in the Tanach, always referring to a lion.
Isaiah 38:13 which is describing King Hezekiah singing a song praying for his recovery from illness. Here the word Kaari is also used and correctly interpeted as “I reckoned till morning, as a lion …” (KJV).
There is no good reason why the word “pierced” later appeared in the translations of Psalm 22. It is believed that the origional authors of the Christian Bible/Canon did not use the word, and that it was inserted later.
Because Psalm 22 didn’t originally have the word “pierced” in its translations, and the writers of the New Testament would have read the psalm “as a lion”, they would not have made any connection between Psalm 22 and a crucifixion. Which is probably why Psalm 22:17 (16 if you’re jewish
) isn’t quoted in the New Testament.I’m pretty sure that Christian scholars today also acknowledge that “as a lion” rather than “pierced” is the more accurate translation. The whole pslam uses animal metaphor/description to describe King David’s enemies. Lion fits right in. Aside from “lion”, the psalm mentions “bulls”, “dogs” , horns of wild oxen. Lions are used (i think) three times in the plsam itself.
In the eternal debate as to ascribing foreshadowing of jesus and crucifixion in the scriptures that were written prior to Jesus, Psalm 22:17 is probably one of the hardest arguments for a Christian to make in supporting a reference to crucifixion.
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Damascus
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Valke2, you really do know your stuff.
Thanks!
Thanks!
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Liberian
Guest
Easter Rabbit,
This is an excellent example of just how wild the original text is. The word “ka’arei” is usually translated “they have pierced.”
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LilyM
Guest
No, not inscribed on stone tablets a la Mount Sinai, nor dictated from the lips of an angel a la the Quran. Or anything approximating. But then we don’t believe any of the OT was either - all being written by humans can’t be a perfect reflection of God’s word.
The Gospels were, however, all very much inspired, all very much on the same level with the OT as scripture, and all Word of God, though the OT is prophecy, foreshadowing and preparation for the New Testament, so the OT takes a backburner.
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