Plasm 22

[thistle]

It was my understanding that the Catholic Church does not view the Gospels as the direct word of God. I’m not talking about scientific or historial lapses, if any. I’m talking strictly theology. Jewish tradition holds that the Torah was given by God to Moses. I didn’t think Christian tradition held that the Gospels were given by God to whoever wrote them.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC 81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”

CCC 105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

CCC 106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”

CCC 134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).

CCC 135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).

CCC 136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).

CCC 37 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit’s action’ (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).

CCC 138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.

CCC 139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.

CCC 140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.

CCC 141 “The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord” (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).

 

[Baraq]

Didnt the real experts in Hebrew translate it as “they pierced” in the Septuigent?
Or did the Psalm change meaning for self described Hebrews after Our Lord conquored Death for his elect?

““As the Septuagint here reads wruxan, they pierced, the translators, doubtless, considered that the correct reading of the Hebrew text was wrak, caaru. The Vulgate, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic, give a similar rendering. All the Evangelists also quote and apply the passage to the crucifixion of Christ. Besides, the other reading, yrak, caari, as a lion, renders the passage unintelligible. The Chaldee version has combined both the ideas of pierced and as a lion, reading, “Biting, as a lion, my hands and my feet.” Our author supposes that the text has been fraudulently corrupted by the Jews, who have intentionally changed wrak, caaru, into yrak, caari.””

ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol08/htm/xxviii.iv.htm

 

[Valke2]

Didnt the real experts in Hebrew translate it as “they pierced” in the Septuigent?
Or did the Psalm change meaning for self described Hebrews after Our Lord conquored Death for his elect?

““As the Septuagint here reads wruxan, they pierced, the translators, doubtless, considered that the correct reading of the Hebrew text was wrak, caaru. The Vulgate, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic, give a similar rendering. All the Evangelists also quote and apply the passage to the crucifixion of Christ. Besides, the other reading, yrak, caari, as a lion, renders the passage unintelligible. The Chaldee version has combined both the ideas of pierced and as a lion, reading, “Biting, as a lion, my hands and my feet.” Our author supposes that the text has been fraudulently corrupted by the Jews, who have intentionally changed wrak, caaru, into yrak, caari.””

ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol08/htm/xxviii.iv.htm

An obvious flaw is that the reading of “lion” does not render the passage unintelligable. Quite the contrary. I suppose everytime the text doesn’t say what one wants, one could argue that the Jews corrupted it somehow. Of course, when we read the Jewish scripture, which is never shy in the area criticizing Israel or pointing out the flaws in man, I don’t know why this particular passage would be purposely corrupted.

Given the fact that, had Psalm 22 originally been read as pierced, we could expect the verse it to at least be mentioned in the New Testament, in order to buffer the validity of a crucifixion prophecy, it seems much more likely that Psalm 22:17 was originally understood to mean lion, not pierced

I followed your link and all I can say is I give it no credit whatsover. It’s reasoning regarding this verse is ludicrious. Attributing to Jews the overriding “desire of their hearts to despoil the crucified Jesus…”

 

[Valke2]

I had edited my post extensively, providing furhter arguments on the use of the word, the fallacy of trying to interpet the root word “to dig” as pierce, and the fallacy of trying to say the word meant “to dig” (and then to jump "to pierce), when in fact it really meant lion. However, my editing took more than 20 minutes and I was closed out. So here’s the short version:

The Sept. was textually revised by Christians a few times in the early centuries. It is not known if “pierced” was one of these revisions. I’m betting it was because, as I stated earlier, it if was always intepeted as pierced, the NT would have quoted the verse to support the prophecy that Jesus would be crucified. It didn’t.

Even if we agree that the correct/original root was Karah, this generally refers to digging of soil (see Gen 26:25, Ex. 21:33, Num. 21;16, Jeramiah 18:20 and 22, Psalm 7:16 and Psalm 57:7). Every instance of the word Karah – the word Christians say means pierced in Psalm 22:16 – is used to mean “dig” in the above citations. It is never used to mean pierced and certainly not used to mean pierced flesh.

There are Hebrew words that mean pierced that are used in the Scripture: rats’a (Ex. 21:6); dakar (Zechariah 12:10 and Isaiah 13:15); nakar (II Kings 18:21). Kings 18:21: [The reed] will go into his hand and pierce it." Thus, why used the word for dig in psalm 22 if the author was trying to say pierce.

The actual word used was not Karah be Ka-ari. The same word but with an aleph. Making the word lion, not “to dig”. (and certainly not “pierced”!).

Finally, the verse should be read "like a lion they are gnawing at my hands and my feet. Yes, the words “they are gnawing” are absent. But this was and is a common literary technique when describing pain/agony. A person in pain does not use complete sentences to describe their pain. And neither did the Psalmist. The same thing occurs in verse 1: “Far from helping me…the words of my roaring.”

There was more but I’m too tired. That’s the gist of what I amended to my last post.

 

[Todd_Easton]

It seems that the authenticity of the word *carii *in the current Jewish Bible has been questioned by some Bible scholars. The 1859 edition of Haydock’s Catholic Bible commentary, following the Douay-Rheims translation of this verse (“They have dug my hands and feet”), says:Dug. The Jews have here, and God knows in how many other places, corrupted their text; reading “like a lion,” though it have no sense, to avoid so clear a prophecy. (W.[Worthington]) — They keep cari in the text, though it (Amama) or the margin had formerly the proper reading, caru. The Chal.[Chaldee] has both, “they have bitten like a lion,” &c. in some editions only; which shews the antiquity of this variation, (H.[Haydock]) as the author Joseph the Blind, is supposed to have lived in the 4th century, though this is uncertain. (C.[Calmet]) — All the ancient versions of the Sept.[Septuagint,] Syr.[Syriac,] &c. agree with us, as the Prot.[Protestants] do likewise. Even the Masora intimates that cari has not here the sense “of like a lion,” as it has Isai.[Isaiah] xxxviii. 13; and, though it might be pointed so as to signify the same as caru, they have rejected that pronunciation, and obstinately maintain their reading, in opposition to many MSS.[manuscripts] seen by Ben. Chaim, &c. (Bert.[Berthier?]) — Kennicott mentions another MS.[manuscript] in the Bod. Lib. which has caru, with cari in the margin; and observes that Dr. Pocock, nevertheless, maintains the accuracy of the Heb.[Hebrew] edit.[edition] in this, as well as in every other instance, asserting that car is perfodit, and cari the part. Benoni, perfodientes, with the *m *omitted. “But as this omission is very irregular, and never proper but before a suffixed pronoun, or in construct.; and as the ancient versions express it . . as a verb, there seems to be but little doubt that this word was originally cru or caru, with an a inserted to express the kametz.” (Dis. 1. p. 500.) The proposed interpretation would be rejected by the Jews, while they would exult in their error being countenanced by us. (C.[Calmet] Diss.) — The reason is perhaps (H.[Haydock]) weak, as their conversion is not expected; if by means of it, the Heb.[Hebrew] Bible may be reconciled with the versions; “the council . . . hath besieged me, digging my hands.” (Bert.[Berthier]) — But this expedient is at least doubtful; (H.[Haydock]) suggested only by Prot.[Protestants] who manitained the integrity of the Heb.[Hebrew] text, which is now given up; and the Jews seem inexcusable, though the variation might originally arise (C.[Calmet]) from a mistake of transcribers. (Houbig.[Houbigant]) — They ought not to have rejected caru even from the margin, which they confess was once in the text, as it is still in very correct copies. Drusius informs us that a Jew threatened Bomberg, when he designed to adopt this correction, that if he did, he would prevent any of his brethren from purchasing a single copy. The pusillanimity of Christians, and the obstinacy of the Jews, keep therefore the text in its present state. (Amama, p. 461.) — Ximenes had the courage to insert caru in his Polyglot. (C.[Calmet]) — In the edit.[edition] of S. Jerom[St. Jerome], 1533, caru appears indeed in the margin; as he translated fixerunt, “they pierced,” and cru in that of Mont.[Montfaucon?] with o over cari, perhaps as a sign that the former was formerly in the margin, or should be translated, as it is by Pagnin, foderunt; though Mont.[Montfaucon?] alters it for circumdederunt me, sicut leo manus meas, in obedience to the Jews. (H.[Haydock]) — Thus we behold what dissensions the alteration of a single u or i may occasion; (Ps.[Psalm] xv. 10.) and yet these are letters which the Jews seem to have treated with little ceremony, (H.[Haydock]) changing in 100 instances, (C.[Calmet]) or omitting them, since the introduction of the vowel points; (Houbig.[Houbigant]) and they are so easily mistaken, that the greatest attention is requisite to make the distinction. However, one jot or one tittle shall not pass of the law till all be fulfilled. Matt.[Matthew] v. 18. (H.[Haydock]) See Zac.[Zechariah] xii. 10.It would be interesting to know what light, if any, the Dead Sea Scrolls can shed on this point.

 

[Valke2]

Psalm 22 is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in two places. In the more important place, it is not legible and is really of no help. (I say more important because it is earlier in time).

IT was found in Nahal Hever and is dated between 70 CE and 135 CE. So it does not predate the Masoretic text, which had already been established.

The scroll uses the word “Kaaru”. Had it used Karu, then it clearly would have meant “they dig”. Had it used Kaari, then it clearly would have meant “like a lion.” Unforunately, it used Kaaru. Not so clear.

Some will claim that “Karu” is simply an alternate spelling for Kaaru, and thus means “dig”. But if that is the case, then the scroll is the ONLY known example in Hebrew literature that spells “Karu”, “Kaaru”.
It is true that some words have different spellings. THat doesn’t mean that all words do. And the dead sea scroll discovery really has no indication that Karu has alternate spelling.

“Kaaru” does appear in some other Hebrew documents, but scholars are not certain of its meaning. The Assyrian word “Karu” means to shear or hack off. In Syrian, it means to hack/slash. However, using meanings from other languages is hardly a recipe for accuracy.

And again, even if the word is really Karu, then we are still left with the fact that it means “to dig” not “pierce” as I posted earlier.

Here’s the link to the website on the Dead Sea Scrolls and Psalm 22.

geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html#hev

 

[Eden]

This is an interesting question. But Psalm 22 contains at least 8 other prophecies fulfilled, whose translation are not in question and which accurately describe Christ’s passion and death, which should hold some weight when considering which translation is accurate.

Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus in His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension

Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.

Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.

Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.

Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.

Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus’ garments among them.
Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus’ garments.

scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

 

[Eden]

I found this on another forum:

*From a Christian perspective, this would also support a separation of
*Psalm 22 from -

• John 19:34-37
  > But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced* his side,
  > and forthwith came there out blood and water.
  > And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true:
  > and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
  > For these things were done,
  > that the scripture should be fulfilled,
  > A bone of him shall not be broken.
  > And again another scripture saith,
  > They shall look on him whom they pierced.
  >> (* nusso, a hapax)
  >> Where John specifically references two verses, Zechariah 12:10 and
  >> Psalm 34:20
  > He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.*

*Yet, not Psalm 22.

*Psalm 22 would more directly relate to …
>> Luke 24:39
> Behold my hands and my feet,
> that it is I myself:
> handle me, and see;
> for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,
> as ye see me have.
*
lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2006-September/030076.html
*

 

[Valke2]

Prophecy fullfilled or history prophecized? I was just replying to the question regarding the use of the word “pierced”. Each of your claims to prophecy fullfilled should probably be its own thread.

 

[Valke2]

I found this on another forum:

*From a Christian perspective, this would also support a separation of
*Psalm 22 from -

• John 19:34-37
  > But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced* his side,
  > and forthwith came there out blood and water.
  > And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true:
  > and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
  > For these things were done,
  > that the scripture should be fulfilled,
  > A bone of him shall not be broken.
  > And again another scripture saith,
  > They shall look on him whom they pierced.
  >> (* nusso, a hapax)
  >> Where John specifically references two verses, Zechariah 12:10* and

I don’t see either referring to Psalm 22 and certainly not citing 22:16

 

[Eden]

John 19:34-37

34But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water. 35And he that saw it, hath given testimony, and his testimony is true. And he knoweth that he saith true; that you also may believe. 36For these things were done, that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him. 37And again another scripture saith: They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Zacharias 12:10

10And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.

 

[Baraq]

lion would be intelligable?
Yeah, I guess if you were a Mystic practicing Kabbalah reading Tea Leaves, and asking demons to help you understand scripture…Sure

If true it would be quoted in the NT?
There are MANY MANY MANY prophecies CLEARLY of our Lord in the OT that arent quoted directly, Christians dont dismiss them because you need more affirmation.

Dead Sea Scrolls?
There are 5000 maunscripts, 50 of which we(in the Reformed Community) feel are corrupted . The Dead Sea Scrolls are one of the most corrupt, we would have to change much of Scripture to accomodate Essene doctrine if these scrolls were indeed accurate.

 

[Eden]

Prophecy fullfilled or history prophecized? I was just replying to the question regarding the use of the word “pierced”. Each of your claims to prophecy fullfilled should probably be its own thread.

Firstly, the OP never asked about the word “pierced”. They asked how Psalm 22 translated as “lion” would relate to the crucifixion. You were the first to introduce the idea of a mistranslation of the word “pierced”.

Secondly, which one is it? The story of Christ’s passion and death was written around the Old Testament or the Old Testament was rewritten around the passion and death of Christ? You seem to be asserting both.

 

[Eden]

I don’t see either referring to Psalm 22 and certainly not citing 22:16

The quote from the forum was stating that John 19:34-37 which refers to the piercing by sword, is not paralleling Psalm 22. It parallels Zacharias 12:10 and Psalm 34:20.

The poster on that same forum states that the parallel from the Psalm 22 passage would more directly relate to Luke 24:39. The OP never mentioned Psalm 22 relating to passages in the New Testament and piercing. You seem to have a deeper insight into what the OP intended that is not evident in his actual post. Do you know him?

 

[Eden]

Each of your claims to prophecy fullfilled should probably be its own thread.

If you would like to start some threads, please do. You can pick whichever ones are of interest to you. Just let me know and I will join you on those threads.

Here’s a list to choose from:

scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

Or here:

clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml

 

[puzzleannie]

Who was there to hear the quote from Psalm 22? None of the writers of the Gospels, right?

John the Apostle, the most likely writer of the 4th Gospel and the book of Revelation was at the foot of the cross with Mary and the other holy women followers of Christ. Christ was not “quoting from” the psalm he was praying the psalm.

 

[Valke2]

lion would be intelligable?
Yeah, I guess if you were a Mystic practicing Kabbalah reading Tea Leaves, and asking demons to help you understand scripture…Sure

If true it would be quoted in the NT?
There are MANY MANY MANY prophecies CLEARLY of our Lord in the OT that arent quoted directly, Christians dont dismiss them because you need more affirmation.

Dead Sea Scrolls?
There are 5000 maunscripts, 50 of which we(in the Reformed Community) feel are corrupted . The Dead Sea Scrolls are one of the most corrupt, we would have to change much of Scripture to accomodate Essene doctrine if these scrolls were indeed accurate.

Again, the rhetoric is clear in 22:16. When describing agony, it was common to leave words out. To give the effect of a kind of painful gasping/discourse. Someone else had asked about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I’m not saying they are definitive. Only addressing what light, if any, they shed on 22:16.

I don’t think there’s anything more I can add to this topic. Maybe I’ll do some more research and get back to you.

 

[Baraq]

Valke, I am new around here, and didnt know you were Jewish(I thought everyone here was Christian). Excuse my rhetoric ,thought you were a misguided Christian that had received some questionable teaching.

anywho…Considering your religion, of course you would follow what your sages teach.

btw: Is that really what your sages say? that it is ‘lion’ and that the Psalm reflects gasping agony? Can I ask which of your sages proposed that, and where it is found among the writings of the Talmud?

 

[EasterRabbit]

So, in short, can anybody bring a cleaf proof that “caari” is not about lion-like hands?

 

[Valke2]

what prophecies do you see in the Tanakh that are not referenced or quoted in the NT?