IMO, the Greek (*Kecharitomene) *itself says it in a stronger manner than even the Latin.
I would say he was born sinless, in other words, the Holy Spirit cleansed him of the stain of Original Sin. But I don’t know of any Church teaching that says he remained sinless. After all, we all have free choice.
Will Vatican III now claim the immaculate conception of John the Baptist?
If it did, then I’m buying it.
It seems that the longer I hang around these boards the more references to “sinless” people I encounter. “All have sinned” seems not to mean “all have sinned” even when we are applying this Scriptural passage to people to whom it is clear that it applies (as opposed to infants and the mentally incompetent). That being the case, just who exactly other than Christ and Mary has the Church declared to be “sinless” in their lives?
Just those two have been declared, but you know that doesn’t mean they have to be the only two. It’s interesting that you failed to address the statement on Elizabeth and Zechariah.
I’d take a different tack. If the Bible says “all have sinned” I’d assume that “all have sinned” unless Scripture explicitly says so otherwise. It did say so with respect to Christ, but not anyone else. As for Elizabeth and Zechariah, Scripture does not exclude them from “all have sinned”. They may have been righteous and blameless in the eyes of God during a certain portion of their life or, more likely, they may have been deemed righteousness by God on account of their faith…as was Abraham.
But you’re not being honest with yourself. If Paul says “All Have Sinned”, and the bible says “Chirst did not sin”, then there is a contradiction when you take Paul’s words literally.
No, you can’t take a single verse and read it outside of the context of the remaining Scriptures. It is beyond dispute that Christ did not sin (nor, of course, do you contend otherwise). Christ is the understood exception to the statement “all have sinned”. It gets more complicated when you extend that proposition beyond Christ.
But, you are doing what you are claiming I am doing. I know Christ was sinless, you know Christ was sinless. But you are inserting this exception into Paul’s statement, while disallowing any other exceptions.
No, I don’t think that I am guilty of selective reading of Scripture or reading Scripture out of context in this case. The entire buildup of Romans to this point is a discussion of how man is sinful and has ignored the commandments of God. To read “all has sinned” to include Christ, when it is said clearly in other places that Christ did not sin, that would be a selective reading. Again, Paul knew that his readers would not include Christ in “all have sinned” because it was made abundantly clear elsewhere that Christ was the one man, the new Adam, who did not sin. Paul has laid down a rule–all have sinned. The burden is on those who want to claim exceptions to the rule to demonstrate the exception. It is easy to carry that burden when you are speaking about Christ.
If you think Paul was making reference to a particular Psalm, state your case…So let’s get a running total of the sinless:
Newbie, regarding Mary, you can choose to keep your eyes closed, if you want to.
Sure, I would contend that these Psalms are consistent with the passage in Romans that “all have sinned”.
But the “All” are the people trying to destroy God’s people.
Righteous and blameless does not mean they were spared from the original sin of Adam.
I didn’t say they did.
Do you think only catholics believe in original sin?
Of course the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit. But God didn’t just come down and lay the completed bible on a table, did He? He worked through men who wrote under his inspiration, and guided his Church to include those scriptures and only those scriptures which were inspired.