Plea to Catholics of a Liberal Persuasion

[iloveangels]

It’s probably a lost cause here but excellent points, Rence. And what if an employer’s religion forbid paying taxes? They would not get away with breaking the law under the guise of their religious liberty being taken away.

Yet, the fact of the matter is that there was a supreme court decision in favor of the Amish. The federal law says that employers have to withhold income taxes out of wages, and yet the Amish don’t have to do that. Such money management practices are a violation of their religious belief system. It was a freedom of religion decision of the Supreme Court. U.S. v. Lee, 102 S. Ct. 1051 (1982)

Their belief system doesn’t have a problem with paying taxes. It has a problem with certain sorts of financial arrangements, banks etc. Smart people, the Amish.

Note that federal withholding of income is normally taken to be a generally applicable law. However the Amish have very well documented statements of their belief system that predate withholding laws.

 

[iloveangels]

President Barack Obama often has said those same words. Also he will add our sisters’ keeper too.

EDIT: Declared membership in a religious system and behavior can be two very different things.

I’ll even go you one further. Religious labels can have rather little to do with how evil a person is. Josef Goebbels, the Minister of Propaganda for the Nazi Party, one of Hitler’s staunchest allies and a man who had his wife shot and all his children poisoned with cyanide was baptized Catholic.

Hitler was also baptised Catholic as a child. Here’s his baptismal certificate: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hitler_Baptism_Certificate0002.jpg

Stalin was Orthodox and even studied in the seminary at one point, although he later became a convinced atheist. Mao was a Buddhist who also became an atheist.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Oh please, I doubt that he’s even Christian, as do many other people.

Whoops! Questioning another person’s declared religious faith is a violation of Forum rules.

 

[iloveangels]

Sorry. Doesn’t really matter anyway. Declared membership and behavior can be two very different things and that was my point.

I edited the above post to reflect only documentable facts. Not my opinion.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I’ve been trying to find an answer and haven’t but don’t some states already require Catholic health care and other institutions to provide contraception?

 

[iloveangels]

I’ve been trying to find an answer and haven’t but don’t some states already require Catholic health care and other institutions to provide contraception?

Yeah, but the laws are written differently so there are loopholes that can be used. There are other laws in place that work with those laws.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Yet, the fact of the matter is that there was a supreme court decision in favor of the Amish. The federal law says that employers have to withhold income taxes out of wages, and yet the Amish don’t have to do that. Such money management practices are a violation of their religious belief system. It was a freedom of religion decision of the Supreme Court. U.S. v. Lee, 102 S. Ct. 1051 (1982)

Their belief system doesn’t have a problem with paying taxes. It has a problem with certain sorts of financial arrangements, banks etc. Smart people, the Amish.

Note that federal withholding of income is normally taken to be a generally applicable law. However the Amish have very well documented statements of their belief system that predate withholding laws.

Funny.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Sorry. Doesn’t really matter anyway. Declared membership and behavior can be two very different things and that was my point.

I edited the above post to reflect only documentable facts. Not my opinion.

Hope so.

 

[iloveangels]

Funny.

I don’t know how funny it is. The Amish take it seriously. And so did the Supreme Court.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

You call me wicked, a synonym for evil. That is not charity. It is an insult pure and simple, and I take it exactly as such…

As to “shifting for one’s self,” most businessmen do exactly that, rising or failing on their own merits and that of the products or services they provide. They don’t rely on handouts in their quest to succeed. Though I now work for a major state agency, when I practiced law independently, I had to shift for myself - it was my talents as a litigator and not those of anyone else that won or lost cases for me.

I did not call you wicked. I said what you said was wicked: "You said something wicked "

True charity is trying to correct your brothers and sisters in Christ when you believe they are stating they are not their brother’s keeper. That was your initial post as I understood it and I feel it is my duty to correct it and prevent other readers from confusing that attitude as acceptable to the Catholic faith, ie.You are not your brother’s keeper, rather we are called to love one another.

Was my methodology perfect? No and I apologize for any shortcoming in charity on my admonishment.

 

[Jeanne_S]

There was a letter to the editor in the Denver Post this morning. The letter was in reply to an op-ed piece written by the local Bishop the previous week. It was a letter against what the Bishop wrote, and in favor of the HHS mandate. It was written by a Catholic Sister. And we wonder why Catholics either don’t believe or follow ALL of the teachings of the Church. It truly makes me ill.

I live in the Denver area as well.I was astonished by the tone of this letter by a sister of Loretto,no lessI agree,we as the Catnolic faithful have a big ship to turn in educating the public re matters of our faith.Having one of our own lash out in such a mean spirited and direspectful way is not helping our cause any.Add to that all the misinformation and lack of understanding by a vast number of Catholic laity,seems overwhelming.Our priests need to continue speaking instructing from the pulpit.

 

[Wellok]

Hope this doesn’t sidetrack the thread but I was wondering:

I understand the Church’s potion on contraception but what about in-vitro fertilization which is also condemned by the Church? I rarely hear anything about this, which is covered under most heath coverage as well.

 

[Dawnia]

I live in the Denver area as well.I was astonished by the tone of this letter by a sister of Loretto,no lessI agree,we as the Catnolic faithful have a big ship to turn in educating the public re matters of our faith.Having one of our own lash out in such a mean spirited and direspectful way is not helping our cause any.Add to that all the misinformation and lack of understanding by a vast number of Catholic laity,seems overwhelming.Our priests need to continue speaking instructing from the pulpit.

The Church really needs to reign in these rogue religious. They are doing nothing but causing more problems and confusion.

 

[iloveangels]

Hope this doesn’t sidetrack the thread but I was wondering:

I understand the Church’s potion on contraception but what about in-vitro fertilization which is also condemned by the Church? I rarely hear anything about this, which is covered under most heath coverage as well.

There are Catholic insurance agencies that the Church relies on to provide insurance coverage that does not include these things.

usccb.org/news/2011/11-168.cfm

This is important because the Church who teaches that procurement of abortion, by any means, is an excommunicable act, cannot go around participating in the procurement of abortion.

If you work for a company that’s not Catholic and uses a secular insurance plan, perhaps you have been taken advantage of in that regard, as an individual Catholic citizen. It’s a very common occurrence, unfortunately.

 

[iloveangels]

The Church really needs to reign in these rogue religious. They are doing nothing but causing more problems and confusion.

Agree. Somebody needs to forward that article to the CDF. Also the people who were in charge of the recent overview of Catholic sisters in the US. See link below.

apostolicvisitation.org/en/about/sistermaryclare.html

 

[Wellok]

There are Catholic insurance agencies that the Church relies on to provide insurance coverage that does not include these things.

usccb.org/news/2011/11-168.cfm

This is important because the Church who teaches that procurement of abortion, by any means, is an excommunicable act, cannot go around participating in the procurement of abortion.

If you work for a company that’s not Catholic and uses a secular insurance plan, perhaps you have been taken advantage of in that regard, as an individual Catholic citizen. It’s a very common occurrence, unfortunately.

Shouldn’t we also be pushing to be able to opt out of paying for IVF and contraception as individuals not just as employers? I know of one person in my office who’s wife had IVF and another that had a vasectomy. Am I morally culpable by paying my premiums? My family needs insurance. What can I do?

 

[mark_a]

Me too. I have to politically choose between people who want to murder babies or treat desperately poor Mexicans like animals.

For now, I have to vote against the murderers. But I want better options.

Amen!

 

[Rence]

Shouldn’t we also be pushing to be able to opt out of paying for IVF and contraception as individuals not just as employers? I know of one person in my office who’s wife had IVF and another that had a vasectomy. Am I morally culpable by paying my premiums? My family needs insurance. What can I do?

You don’t have to drop your insurance. No one is requiring us to drop our insurance policies, and I know I’m not going to drop mine. I like my insurance

 

[Wellok]

You don’t have to drop your insurance. No one is requiring us to drop our insurance policies, and I know I’m not going to drop mine. I like my insurance

I like mine too and it more affordable then what I could get on my own. But aren’t I morally culpable for helping people pay for vasectomies and IVF by participating in the plan?

 

[JimG]

Hope this doesn’t sidetrack the thread but I was wondering:

I understand the Church’s potion on contraception but what about in-vitro fertilization which is also condemned by the Church? I rarely hear anything about this, which is covered under most heath coverage as well.

There are Catholic insurance companies which do not covera morally evil things. Under the HHS mandate, of course, these insurance companies must either reject their religion, or go out of business.

There are Catholic institutions which self insure. They provide morally acceptable coverage.
Under the HHS mandate, they will have to provide coverage for things which violate their religion, or they can reject their religion, or they can cancel insurance coverage and pay a fine for practicing their religion.

There are Catholic businessmen who now provide morally acceptable coverage. Under the HHS mandate, they will have to violate their religion by providing morally unacceptable coverage, or cancel all coverage and pay a fine for practicing their religion, or go out of business.

Is it still America?