Plea to Catholics of a Liberal Persuasion

[Bubba_Switzler]

“The CCC said so” is not going to fly. Because He’s going to point to the part about your conscience and your own responsibility for your own actions no matter what anybody says ever.

If, God forbid, I was ever in a situation where I had to use violence to defend myself or my family I would do so with a clear conscience. And I would do so in confidence that it was consistent with Church teaching.

On the other hand, I know that deliberately killing an innocent unborn baby is a grave sin.

And I understand the difference between the two.

 

[iloveangels]

… When you pass, and Jesus asks what you were thinking and you wave the CCC at Him and He points to His Own words in Scripture, who you think is going to prevail in that argument? “The CCC said so” is not going to fly. …

And we can stop right there. The Church is the Body of Christ on earth. We cannot separate the magisterial teaching of the Church from Scripture. They are both true. If you don’t see how they can both be true simultaneously, then maybe you don’t understand them. But they are both true and cannot be separated in this way.

This thread really is supposed to be about the HHS Mandate.

 

[Cursilista]

Sounds like you must watch a lot of Fox News - most people do. Of course, the fact that they have the highest rating sort of undermines the argument that the “liberal media” somehow controls the messaging.

Sounds like you watch MSNBC, NPR, ABC, NBC, CNN they are all in the same boat together and you probably subsribe to media matters. You know the group that tells all of the above what to say and how to say on behalf of the president. If you add them all up together you prob reach more than 50% of the population. Fox news is but one outlet as compared to all the other liberal outlets and then again the Administration was trying to silent that dissenting voice that fairness doctrine they tried to pass.

Samuel Adams once said, "“I did verily believe, as I do still, that much more is to be dreaded from the growth of popery in America, than from the Stamp Act, or any other acts destructive of civil rights.”

Of course I don’t agree with him, Founding Father though he is (although I do like his beer). I quote him to point out that we as “devout Catholics” are lucky to have a voice in this democracy at all. Once upon a time, we were regarded as a threat to liberty, and believe it or not the Religious liberty clause in the Constitution was put there in order to prevent Catholics in particular

from taking over the government.

Hmmmm, you may be right but think that this clause was put there more to prevent the king of england, the head of the church, from having any say so in the Anglicans governing of themselves. In 1776 there were not a lot of Catholics in the 13 original colonies. Most were in Louisiana , The Spanish control Florida lands and French Canada. Most of the 13 originals were primarily Protestant. It wasnt till the immigration of the Irish that the east coast had a large population of Catholics.

As for my “friends” - most believe they are far more conservative than I am. Just the other day I was yelled at by my divorced, IUD using friend who is cheating on her current husband and sends her kid to basketball rather than Church on Sunday that I was a “f—ing liberal” because I objected to her saying poor people should be left to die on the streets. It put a bit of a strain on our friendship. However, she later apologized, explaining that I should never argue with a drunk (she likes Sam Adams more than I do). I acted like a good Christian - and forgave her. That probably made more of an impression than the sort of preaching you advocate.

Nice liberal portrayal of a conservative by using your friend who undoubtably was goated into making that irrational statement by arguing with someone who is drunk on the kool aid of the liberal agenda. I should learn from this and leave you to your unrealistic reality.

What I have come to realize is that conservatives don’t know what they are anymore. You should clean up your house before attacking marginalized populations like gay people. As the song goes, they were born that way and God does not make mistakes. If you are worried about “disordered” behavior, then know that masturbation is regarded by the Catholic Church as equally “disordered” as gay sex - so why don’t you add that to your list of “intolerables”.

Ahhhh yes the liberal myth that they were born that way. Im sorry did they discover the gay gene? Is their DNA somewhat different, yes the gay dna. Myth. homosexuality is a learned trait, a chosen lifestyle, an abomination in God’s eyes. Do i hate gays , no , i pray for them. Don’t pretend to know me or conservatives in general. Your observations are skewed on conservatives and if you cared to look at both sides of a situation instead of blindly hawking the liberal rationalizations for every lifestyle choice, you might learn the real Catholic faith. If they were born that way , why does the bible say its an abomination. afterall God dosent make mistakes.

As for abortion, I don’t believe ANY woman, liberal or conservative, celebrates the wonderful opportunity to have an abortion. To think otherwise is just demented.

i agree with this quote but with planned parenthood and the abortion industry, they have made abortion no more of a big deal. Pregnancy a mere inconvience. The thing about all of this culture of death is that if a woman chooses to have sex and chooses to take birth control and still gets pregnant and then chooses to have an abortion, why should i have to pay for her choices. I agree with freedom to choose but on your own nickel. Each of us has to answer to our Lord for our own Behavior and choices. Look at your ideology and all that it supports and think of what your answers will be when you meet your lord.

 

[timcin]

While some of the agenda of the Liberal movement may seem to coincide with our Catholic teachings, the ultimate goal is a secular world ruled by government. I plead with all Catholics to learn from the latest attempt to undermine our religious freedoms in the HHS bill that the secular agenda will keep creating battles which will eventually erode the foundations of our fatih. Enclosed is an article which includes such a warning from the Pope.

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=44578

I know several people that say they are Catholic, that actually go to church, and say they love what the government (Obama) is doing. When I pin them down on some of the bad things that have happened and will most likely happen, they say they don’t like it but that doesn’t sway them away from liking Obama’s policies. They tell me they’re for contraception and Pro Choice. So what’s going on in the churches they go to that makes them feel this way?

 

[iloveangels]

I know several people that say they are Catholic, that actually go to church, and say they love what the government (Obama) is doing. When I pin them down on some of the bad things that have happened and will most likely happen, they say they don’t like it but that doesn’t sway them away from liking Obama’s policies. They tell me they’re for contraception and Pro Choice. So what’s going on in the churches they go to that makes them feel this way?

That won’t be most people. Obamacare is going to the Supreme Court at the end of next month. IF the mandate doesn’t die then, the bishops are going to make it their mission to tell you about it from now until November. Many Catholics will be doing the same. I know that I am and will be, and so will many other faithful Catholics both here and out on the street.

My guess is that perhaps none of this will ever end up actually coming about. Or that if it does come about, it won’t last for long. And whether it happens or not, I also predict that we will get converts out of it. Not to mention reverts–we’ll get them too. Clarity is a powerful thing.

 

[iloveangels]

You might also consider the “don’t be messing with my church” effect.

I point you toward an article written by Michael Sean Winters, columnist for the very far left National Catholic Reporter, who says that he has lost all respect for Obama and won’t be voting for him in the fall, all over the mandate. Why? He said, “Don’t be messing with my church.”

The article is here. It’s actually quite good. You won’t hear me say that about anything else that Michael Sean Winters has ever written before.

ncronline.org/blogs/distinctly-catholic/jaccuse

PS. Michael Sean Winters “gets” it. You have to make sure the people you talk to “get” it too, Cursilista. It’s NOT about birth control. It’s NOT about abortion. It’s about whether the government can dictate to your priests and bishops what you can do and what you can say about what you believe. It’s about their prejudice and hatred towards us.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Nothing I have read about the HHS bill requires any Catholic to use contraception, or do anything else that violates his or her beliefs.

then you must not understand what you have been reading.
The bill REQUIRES ALL Catholic owned insitutions (and other Christian institutions, too, by extension) to pay for contraceptive coverage in all their insurance plans for their employees, and not merely any ol’ contraceptive coverage, but abortifacient contraceptives too, ALL forms of so-called “birth control.”
You may rest ASSURED that if fully implemented this WILL, sooner rather than later,
be extended to forced coverage of ABORTION services too.
Count on it. 100%.

Just because it doesn’t force YOU to USE contraception is beside the point.
The churches are now being forced to PROVIDE COVERAGE for all these things which
we believe are mortal sins. That is forcing the church to go against the teachings of Christ. This law, and those enforcing it, are in a way committing a Sin Against the Holy Spirit, who is the SOURCE of our church’s moral teachings. Deliberate Sins against the Holy Spirit lead to THE “Blasphemy Against the Spirit” which is eternally unforgivable.
These government officials — ESPECIALLY the so-called “Catholic” ones ---- are seriously skating on VERY DANGEROUSLY THIN ICE as far as their OWN eternal salvation is concerned. This law of theirs is a very daring, wicked, and dastardly act and, for the “Catholic” sponsors of it, a TREASONOUS ACT against CHRIST as well.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

And I said,
Count On It. 100%.

I meant that absolutely literally.
I have been watching the Liberals closely now since the early 1980s, when so many of them treasonously supported the Sandinista Communist and other communist guerilla movements in Latin America. I have watched their “morals” and the things they advocate as far as morals go,
go rapidly and steadily from very bad to even WORSE to where they are now advocating
sodomite marriages (not merely civil unions, but marriage, which is ordained by God as a sacrament and the advocacy of same-sex forms of which therefore constitute the RANKEST possible Blasphemy).

The apostles warned us these times would be upon us:
“In the last times, wicked men will advance from bad to worse,
deceived AND BEING deceived…” he told Saint Timothy in his letters to him.
We are in those times.
The “liberals” aren’t about to back up in their advocacy of wickedness,
you can rest assured, 100% assured, that they are going to become more and more and more depraved as the decades go on (if God allows them to go on much longer).
Right now, because it is still politically-correct to hate pedophilia, the liberals too strongly condemn that. But give them a few decades. Pedophilia was advocated and widely practiced in ancient non-Christian societies such as pagan Greece. It WILL, under the advance of apostasy and MODERN libertine liberalism, eventually be advocated right here in the USA, by the media and by the polticians. Not now, because it is still one of the few remaining poltically-INcorrect Sins, but that too will change. When I was a kid, even many liberals were horrified by the sudden onslaught of the “gay rights” movement that began in earnest in late 1969. Not anymore, baby. Now even advocating same sex marriage and adoption of little kids, to subject THEIR innocent minds to these un-natural lifestyles and corrupt their minds. Next, I think they will start advocating polygamy.
After that, eventually, they will start “normalizing,” then advocating gradually, pedophilia itself. Count on it.

 

[mh2007]

As religious freedoms become more and more curtailed, the Church will, once again, find itself under siege from all sorts of groups and uninformed people. It has happened down through the ages. The Jews have faced this kind of discrimination for millenia. Of course, the Church will survive. The ranks may become thin. The faithful may be persecuted. However, the Orders will cloister if necessary and find ways to continue living their consecrated lives of service to God and humanity. No government can stop that. The Church will continue on in safe regions, and thrive where religious freedom is tolerated.

I also believe there will be a backlash against the forces that are becoming more and more hostile to Holy Mother Church. I will even venture to say this: At some point, ordinary people will come to understand the government is being unfair to the Church, and people will come back to participate in the Church once again precisely because the government is trying to disuade them from it. This tyranny will not prevail. However, it runs in cycles and may take years to play out. Just like Herod slaughtered the innocents, hostile regimes will attack the Church, pass laws against it, and try to curtail its activities and morality. Look at the Soviet Union. China. Nazi Germany. Throughout history there have been hostile times and hostile regimes seeking to destroy the Church.

Thank God for this wonderful organization that has lasted through the ages, serving as a beacon of light, refuge, hope, and inspiration for countless millions. Try as they might, the government will never be able to stop people from being religious. People may need to be more secretive and endure persecutions from the government and other sinister forces, but those evil forces will not prevail.

 

[The_Rock]

Yes, we sin every day. You don’t get to decide who is evil or not evil or should have some sort of violence committed against them because THAT’S NOT WHAT JESUS SAID TO DO.

In fact, that’s what Jesus said to not do. So, tell you what. When you pass, and Jesus asks what you were thinking and you wave the CCC at Him and He points to His Own words in Scripture, who you think is going to prevail in that argument? “The CCC said so” is not going to fly. Because He’s going to point to the part about your conscience and your own responsibility for your own actions no matter what anybody says ever.

Jesus said … Jesus said… it’s the only answer to any question. Now you justify your position from what Jesus told us to do. I don’t want to hear some junk about money-changers, no matter what happened, He’s Jesus: we’re not.

What did Jesus tell us to do? There’s only one answer to all questions and He IS it.

“HE WHO HEARS YOU,HEARS ME”
Luke 10:16

That is what Jesus said.

What is not going to fly is when you say that you didn’t have to follow the teaching of His Church because you set yourself up as your own self-appointed magisterium.

 

[CMatt25]

Forget liberal and conservative. That’s not the issue here. The issue is that the Obama administration is after us. They intend to punish us.

It’s not only Republicans or conservatives that they’re going to punish. No. They’re going to punish all of us, regardless of our political views. How, you say? By coming after our dioceses and parishes and schools and newspapers and every Catholic organization in the United States. The federal government will fine them millions of dollars if they don’t comply.

What does that mean in practical terms? That the Catholic organization cannot afford to employ as many people as before. So people will lose their jobs. Many liberals work for the church. These are exactly the jobs that are in danger of being lost. Moreover, many programs that liberals hold dear will be damaged if not destroyed by these fines. I urge liberal Catholics to think and think hard on these things.

Soup kitchens and food banks will close if this law goes into effect.

Teachers and administrators of all kinds will be in the unemployment lines.

Father Larry Snyder, the president of Catholic Charities USA, welcomed President Barack Obama’s compromise on the contraceptive mandate.

He said on Friday Feb 10, 2012: “This compromise enables Catholic Charities USA to not only continue to provide access to quality health-care to its 70,000 employees and families across the country of many different faiths and backgrounds, but also guarantees the continued delivery of vital services to the more than 10 million people living in need across the country.”

prolifecorner.com/node/1195

Should conservative Catholics on this forum no longer support Catholic Charities?

 

[The_Rock]

Should conservative Catholics on this forum no longer support Catholic Charities?

Are you trying to foster division?

 

[CMatt25]

Are you trying to foster division?

Not at all. I’ve read on the forum though about how all of these closings of Catholic social services are going to be occuring. And yet Fr Snyder speaks about continuing Catholic Charities unless he backtracks from his statement. So I was just wondering if conservatives should/would withhold support from Catholic Charities now? It was just a question.

 

[iloveangels]

Not at all. I’ve read on the forum though about how all of these closings of Catholic social services are going to be occuring. And yet Fr Snyder speaks about continuing Catholic Charities unless he backtracks from his statement. So I was just wondering if conservatives should withhold support from Catholic Charities now?

So what are you getting at Matt? Are you trying to tell us how to donate now? The nerve.

There was no compromise.

From the USCCB blog (posted to that blog on Monday 2/13/2012):

1. The rule that created the uproar has not changed at all, but was finalized as is. Friday evening, after a day of touting meaningful changes in the mandate, HHS issued a regulation finalizing the rule first issued in August 2011, “without change.” So religious employers dedicated to serving people of other faiths are still not exempt as “religious employers.” Indeed, the rule describes them as “non-exempt.”

usccbmedia.blogspot.com/2012/02/six-more-things-everyone-should-know.html

No change of any sort was made to the mandate between August 2011 and Friday night when it was finalized. NONE. There was no compromise. It was all political talk and deception.

 

[CMatt25]

So what are you getting at Matt? Are you trying to tell us how to donate now? The nerve.

No. I’ve always heard a lot about Catholic Charities though. They have a reputation of being a large provider of services within the Catholic community. And if they are satisfied with the compromise and want to continue to provide their services despite all the fury still among conservatives over even the mandate compromise, I just wondered if conservatives should withhold support from them now on principle? But if no one wants to answer, that’s fine. I was just curious.

 

[iloveangels]

This does bring up an interesting point. For years, Catholics including the USCCB have looked for a standard method for applying a rule to determine who was Catholic enough to be called Catholic. If this mandate is successful, we now have a rule. It is an unintended consequence of Obamacare. We’d rather not have the mandate, but if we get one, we also get a tool for determining who is Catholic and who is not.

This should make it a lot easier for parents to find colleges for their children, for Catholics to find Catholic organizations and services, and for Catholics to find reliable Catholic magazines, newspapers and other sources of information.

Sad but true. There’s a silver lining in every cloud.

Matt, I don’t know what anyone else will do, but the only organizations that will get anything from me going forward are those who are protesting this mandate, and who would pay fines before complying. I know as a matter of fact that there are many charitable Catholic organizations like this, like the CFRs in New York, the Solanus Casey soup kitchen and so on. The other ones probably aren’t Catholic enough to have my dollars as a Catholic.

 

[CMatt25]

This does bring up an interesting point. For years, Catholics including the USCCB have looked for a standard method for applying a rule to determine who was Catholic enough to be called Catholic. If this mandate is successful, we now have a rule. It is an unintended consequence of Obamacare. We’d rather not have the mandate, but if we get one, we also get a tool for determining who is Catholic and who is not.

This should make it a lot easier for parents to find colleges for their children, for Catholics to find Catholic organizations and services, and for Catholics to find reliable Catholic magazines, newspapers and other sources of information.

Sad but true. There’s a silver lining in every cloud.

So the long standing Catholic Charities, known all over for the huge amount of good work they provide as part of the Catholic community, would no longer be Catholic? Aren’t they one of the largest Catholic providers of services? I just know I hear a tremendous amount about them and have for a very long time.

 

[iloveangels]

So the long standing Catholic Charities, known all over for the huge amount of good work they provide as part of the Catholic community, would no longer be Catholic?

It depends on what they do.

Participation in the procurement of abortion services is an excommunicable offense and always has been. This is the faith of the Roman Catholic church. I’m a Roman Catholic first.

Besides if this mandate holds, which I don’t think it will, my parish is going to need help paying all these fines. We are going to keep it going of course. Although, you know, we probably don’t need all the paid lay ministers we have.

But peoples’ donations can only go so far. At some point, which may be pretty quick, if this thing holds, things will start to close. And it will be because of the mandate and the fines associated with it.

 

[The_Rock]

No. I’ve always heard a lot about Catholic Charities though. They have a reputation of being a large provider of services within the Catholic community. And if they are satisfied with the compromise and want to continue to provide their services despite all the fury still among conservatives over even the mandate compromise, I just wondered if conservatives should withhold support from them now on principle? But if no one wants to answer, that’s fine. I was just curious.

I am glad you were not trying to stir the pot and divide our loyalties, good to hear.

 

[The_Rock]

So the long standing Catholic Charities, known all over for the huge amount of good work they provide as part of the Catholic community, would no longer be Catholic? Aren’t they one of the largest Catholic providers of services? I know I hear a tremendous amount about them and have for a very long time.

Wow, you must really be curious! Four posts asserting this same question. I am glad you are not trying to bait anyone into a divisive arguement.