Please, Catholics, tell me you disagree with the Pope on this!

[Lillith]

I think that every word the Pope is speaking in his new role is being totally over analized…as if people are trying to prove that he was not chosen correctly…and to prove that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the Churchs’ decision… ultimately to prove the Church wrong.

Just yesterday my eleven year old came home and told me that the Pope’s glasses were to expensive…that PopeJohn Paul never had expensive things and the new Pope is materialistic. She got this from school in this protestant area I live in apparently this is the topic of discussion :banghead:

I am tired of hearing the Pope was a Nazi…all this mud slinging is getting old to me…but I am not overly bothered by it…it is a little amuzing to me actually.

 

[vluvski]

Melchior:

They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption… (A)mong the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live… With this faith…

Mel, you’re missing the explanation part of the pope’s words. The Catholic church has and continues to teach that the word of God is impressed upon each of our hearts from the moment of conception. He is talking about those people who, without instruction or possibly because of misinstruction, cannot identify with the idea of “Biblical salvation” as he says, yet still remain true in their hearts to God’s word within them.

 

[tradcatmel]

Have you heard of the Catholic Nose?

A catholic should have a catholic nose. When he/she hears of a new doctrine (something the church has never taught before) - they should use the catholic nose to smell that something is very fishy.

Take the father of a family. He is a drunkard ok. While the Father is drunk and he tells the family to do something, the children and mother are not obliged to follow him, while he is drunk. He still remains the Father of the family, even though he is drunk.

Can you see the similarity? When the Pope teaches new doctrine, something that the church has never taught before, we are in a position to ascertain whether that statement is true or not. We do not have to follow him blindly in his error.

Whatever happened to the Catholic Church being the only Rock through which salvation is possible?

Popes in history, have not always been good. I am not judging our Pope, may the Holy Ghost give him the inspiration to teach the truth. But, this statement is aligned with the modernist way of thinking which is going to in the end destroy the church. Many people will question themselves, Why should I be Catholic if it is ok to save my soul through the other religions of the world?

Study the Church Fathers. See what they agreed upon and familiarise yourself with the teachings of the recent Popes.

Remember, the Pope is the Pope, we cannot deny him his office which is given to him from God above. We must only pray for him for it is not for the inferior to judge the Superior. That is where the Sedavacantism error happens.

Pray for the Pope so that he may be enlightened to see what he is teaching is not the Catholic teaching.

 

[smelton]

Ignatius:

Is that the only vers in Scripture to deal with salvation? If not, please cite all of the others and let’s see if we can make some sense of what the pope said.

The entire bible is dealing with salvation. I don’t mean to sound condesending but that is the truth. If one does not need to know Jesus, as a matter of belief and faith, then why did he come. To say that there are other ways to God is to say that Jesus was not necessary. To those who used the Roman’s verse the entire book has to be looked at. To select a few verses and say that’s it, is not an honest look. Chapter 1 - Gentiles (those who don’t know God) are guilty of sin. Chapter 2 -Jews are guilty of sin. Chapter 3 - All are sinners. Chapter 4 - Abraham was not justified by works but by faith. Chapter 5 - My favorite chapter. 5:1 - Therefore(that means because of what was in chpts 1-4), since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
Jesus grants us access to God.

 

[son_of_Our_Lady]

Jesus said “No one comes to the Father but through Me”

Here are a few scenarios:

One man claims “I believe in Jesus Christ and He is my Savior”, the man then proceeds to kill black people because he is also a violent racist

A different man in another part of the world does not know anything about Christ, sees a random child fall into a fast moving river, the man jumps in, saves the child, but cannot get himself out of the water and dies

A woman in a non christian country has been raised her whole life that Christianity is the religion of the devil and that Jesus is evil. The woman hates Jesus (in ignorance) but otherwise lives a pious life and prays feverently to God out of love and awe.

All of the above people must stand before God in judgment.
All people must go through Jesus to get to the Father.
Jesus will decide who went through Him based on their faith while on earth. People’s actions reflect what thier faith is made of.

Our actions cannot save us from eternal punishment, Jesus’s actions saved us from that. But our actions (or lack thereof) can cause us to lose paradise.

God does not want anyone to go to hell, and He does not send anyone to hell, people choose hell and go there on their own based on thier actions on earth.

The Pope is only stating the position of the Church:
The Church will not claim anyone is condemned to hell for any reason. Only God knows what is in our soul and anything is possible through Him (yes, even allowing unbaptised babies and athiests into heaven)

In Christ,

SofOL

 

[Libero]

I am tired of hearing the Pope was a Nazi…all this mud slinging is getting old to me…but I am not overly bothered by it…it is a little amuzing to me actually.

That one really annoys me, it is just ignorance.

 

[b_justb]

Melchior:

Every heard of the great commission?

Mel

Why yes, yes I have. Ever wonder who Jesus was talking to? Was it to all his disciples or was it to his Apostles? I wonder why it was to a select group and not to all inclusive. My bet it’s because this select group had the whole story, not just parts of it; that way all of the truth would be imparted, not just some of it.

 

[Melchior]

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”
Matt 5:9

So this is the Gospel of salvation, Matt?

Mel

 

[smelton]

deb1:

so how in your opinon does this verse coincide with Romans 2 14-15? They were, after all, written by the same author in the same letter, so they must not be contradicting one another.

Romans 2: 14-15 For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having the law are a law unto themselves. 15 Which show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the means while accusing or else excusing one another.

Paul was addressing the Jews in the Roman church to show them they were no better than the gentiles.

 

[deb1]

Della:

So, how is Sandusky wrong? It seems to go along perfectly with what Peter said when he saw the faith of Cornelius–that God honors those who honor him no matter who they are. This in no way negates our need of the Savior, rather it says that the Savior will save whom he pleases while many a self-satisfied “Christian” (not talking about you dear Redbandito) will find himself out in the dark.

It is my opinion that what Sardusky wrote coincides with Catholic beliefs but Sandusky is a Calvinist. He has a different take on Free will and salvation then most Catholics and a lot of Christians. So, I am going to guess that his interpretation is different then ours. I might be completly wrong, if so I apologize to him.

 

[Lillith]

Son of our Lady…that was perfect…we needed a good analogy!

 

[Melchior]

So basically most of you are saying the road is wide that leads to salvation and there are many (most) who find it?

Hmmmm. Seems to contradict the very words of Jesus.

Mel

 

[deb1]

son of Our Lady:

Jesus said “No one comes to the Father but through Me”

Here are a few scenarios:

One man claims “I believe in Jesus Christ and He is my Savior”, the man then proceeds to kill black people because he is also a violent racist

A different man in another part of the world does not know anything about Christ, sees a random child fall into a fast moving river, the man jumps in, saves the child, but cannot get himself out of the water and dies

A woman in a non christian country has been raised her whole life that Christianity is the religion of the devil and that Jesus is evil. The woman hates Jesus (in ignorance) but otherwise lives a pious life and prays feverently to God out of love and awe.

All of the above people must stand before God in judgment.
All people must go through Jesus to get to the Father.
Jesus will decide who went through Him based on their faith while on earth. People’s actions reflect what thier faith is made of.

Our actions cannot save us from eternal punishment, Jesus’s actions saved us from that. But our actions (or lack thereof) can cause us to lose paradise.

God does not want anyone to go to hell, and He does not send anyone to hell, people choose hell and go there on their own based on thier actions on earth.

The Pope is only stating the position of the Church:
The Church will not claim anyone is condemned to hell for any reason. Only God knows what is in our soul and anything is possible through Him (yes, even allowing unbaptised babies and athiests into heaven)

In Christ,

SofOL

I, too, like this analogy.

 

[Sherlock]

Melchior:

So basically most of you are saying the road is wide that leads to salvation and there are many (most) who find it?

Hmmmm. Seems to contradict the very words of Jesus.

Mel

No, Jesus was speaking to those who already had the benefit of divine revelation. The road IS narrow, which is why I am thankful for the Church. I do fear for those who have rejected the Church that Jesus founded, as they do not have all the tools they need, yet have the increased responsibility that comes from having heard the Gospel.

 

[deb1]

Melchior:

So basically most of you are saying the road is wide that leads to salvation and there are many (most) who find it?

Hmmmm. Seems to contradict the very words of Jesus.

Mel

I don’t think that anyone here has said that.

 

[Melchior]

deb1:

so how in your opinon does this verse coincide with Romans 2 14-15? They were, after all, written by the same author in the same letter, so they must not be contradicting one another.

Romans 2: 14-15 For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having the law are a law unto themselves. 15 Which show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the means while accusing or else excusing one another.

The context is provided quite clearly if you keep reading the end of the passage in Romans 3 that completes Paul’s thought.

*Romans 3:21-26

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, **so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus./**I]

There is your context.

In between you will find this little dandy that is ion direct conflict with what the Pope said and why I ams o vexed by it:

*Romans 3:10b -11

None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.*

Mel*

 

[Melchior]

deb1:

I don’t think that anyone here has said that.

They may as well have. It amounts to the same thing.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

Della:

So, how is Sandusky wrong? It seems to go along perfectly with what Peter said when he saw the faith of Cornelius–that God honors those who honor him no matter who they are. This in no way negates our need of the Savior, rather it says that the Savior will save whom he pleases while many a self-satisfied “Christian” (not talking about you dear Redbandito) will find himself out in the dark.

You will note, of course, that God brought Cornelius to faith in Christ. He did not save Him in his darkness. He brought him to the light.

 

[Sherlock]

Melchior:

They may as well have. It amounts to the same thing.

Mel

Gee, just because you think it does, I am supposed to think that the pope has rejected Jesus’s message of salvation. Uh huh. Yeah right…

Look, I’ve read enough of the current pope’s writings to have an immense respect for his theological astuteness and holiness. NOTHING has led me to the ridiculous and uncharitable conclusion you, a non-Catholic, wish to make of his statement. This tells me more about you than it does about any supposed abandonment of Jesus’ teachings by the Holy Father.

 

[Melchior]

Lillith:

I think that every word the Pope is speaking in his new role is being totally over analized…as if people are trying to prove that he was not chosen correctly…and to prove that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the Churchs’ decision… ultimately to prove the Church wrong.

Just yesterday my eleven year old came home and told me that the Pope’s glasses were to expensive…that PopeJohn Paul never had expensive things and the new Pope is materialistic. She got this from school in this protestant area I live in apparently this is the topic of discussion :banghead:

I am tired of hearing the Pope was a Nazi…all this mud slinging is getting old to me…but I am not overly bothered by it…it is a little amuzing to me actually.

This is not my intent at all. It simply true that teachers are held to greater accountability and I would thing the suprme teacher on earth would take greater care to be clear about the gospel and not be so ambiguous. Statements liek this will give people false hope.

He needs to Preach Christ clearly not be politically corrrect.

Mel