Please explain differences in Masses

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Irish Melkite:
Charlemagne,

I don’t recollect any longer which Missal in particular has the Dialogue Mass, but the date would be about right for it to be 1962. The Dialogue Mass was routinely used in the 1960s, both in Latin and later in English.

Many years,

Neil
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It was first allowed in 1958
 
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misericordie:
Though I love father Fessio’s writings and admire him greatly, I can understand he does not want any more persecution especially from his own Jesuit order, hence I understand why he would verbally express that about the mass. However, there is a fellow Jesuit who has affiliation with the Ignatius faith and Life series books, and who recently I attended his Tridentine Latin Mass: The great Father Kenneth Baker, S.J. he offers the TLM at Saint Agnes here in Manhattan on most Sundays: the INDULT Mass.
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I have to laugh here. Obviously you don’t know Fr. Fessio. He doesn’t back down from persecution and to say that he would say something to avoid it is quite laughable. This is just another theory that doesn’t pass muster. The fact is that he dedicates much of his writings to promoting the mass as Vatican II intended. This is what Adoremus is all about. It’s not about promoting the TLM. A quick google will reveal this.
 
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Charlemagne:
I have been told that the Missal of 1962 contains a Dialog Mass (i.e., a Mass where the Priest speaks loudly enough to be heard and the people answer). Can anyone verify whether or not this is true?
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For those interested, here is the document.

Msgr. Adrian Fortescue - Msgr. J. B. O’Connell The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite
Described 1996 reprint of the 1962 edition (Extract pp 79-80)

Ph. 9. DIALOGUE (OR COMMUNITY MASS)

"A RECENT Instruction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, De Musica Sacra
(3 September 1958) lays down rules for the direct, active participation of the
people, by gesture and voice, in a Solemn, Sung, or Low Mass. There are three
degrees of participation in a Solemn or Sung Mass: (I) chanting the liturgical
responses; (II) singing, in addition, these parts of the Ordinary of the Mass:
Kyrie eleison; Gloria in excelsis, Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei; (III)
chanting also the Proper parts of the Mass. "Similarly, there are four degrees
of direct liturgical participation by the congregation in Low Mass :
(I) answering aloud the easy short responses; (II) saying aloud aloud all the
responses made by the server, and, if going to Holy Communion, the triple
Domine non sum dignus before their Communion; (III) reciting, in addition, with
the celebrant these parts of the ordinary: Gloria in excelsis, Credo,
Sanctus-Benedictus, Agnus Dei; (IV) saying aloud with the celebrant these four
parts of the Proper of the Mass: Introit, Gradual, Offertory and Communion
antiphons. In a Low Mass also the faithful may recite aloud, with the celebrant
and in Latin --all answering Amen at the end Pater Noster. All these texts
recited in direct participation in the Mass must be in Latin. Certain things are,
however, prohibited for the congregation: (I) to alternate with the celebrant in
the recitation of the Gloria in excelsis, Creed, Sanctus-Benedictus and Agnus Dei,
(II) to recite aloud any part of the Mass not permitted by the above rules;
(III) to say aloud at the Elevation the ejaculation “My Lord and My God”.

To aid the people in taking an active part more easily in liturgical actions a
commentator may intervene with appropriate explanations and directions. If possible
he should be a priest, or at least a cleric, vested in cassock and cotta; if none
such be available a suitable layman may be chosen (a woman is not admissible). A
clerical commentator may stand in the sanctuary or at the altar rail, or in the
pulpit or ambo. A lay commentator must take his place outside the sanctuary
or pulpit. The commentary should be prepared in writing, be brief and temperate,
and spoken in a moderate voice at appropriate moments, and never when
the celebrant is praying aloud. There should be silence from the Consecration to
Pater noster. It is desirable that on Sundays and feast days, at Low
Masses, a reader should read the Epistle and Gospel in the vernacular.

To aid in achieving the purpose of the Dialogue Mass --to influence the congregation
to take an active part in the sacrifice as a great community act it is desirable to
adopt for it a form of congregational ceremonial akin to the correct ceremonial for
Solemn Mass. Accordingly, those taking part should (I) stand when the celebrant goes
up to the altar after the prayers of preparation; (II) sit for the Epistle,
Gradual, Alleluia or Tract; (III) stand for the Gospel, Creed and Oremus; (IV) sit
until Orate, fratres;(V) stand for the Preface and Sanctus; (VI) kneel for
the Canon; (VII) stand for the Pater Noster and prayers before communion;
(VIII) kneel for the communion; (IX) sit for the ablutions ; (X) stand at the
Dominus vobiscum; (XI) kneel for the Blessing; (XII) stand for the last Gospel.
Those who take part in the Mass should, in addition to observing the correct
attitudes, carry out the correct liturgical gestures (genuflecting or bowing,
making the sign of the cross, striking the breast, etc., at the proper moments).
 
bear06 writes: “This is not entirely true. Confessions and marriages are not valid since the SSPX do not have faculties to do them.”

This is what makes any reunion of the SSPX with the novus ordo totally problematic.

The SSPX is not a small organization, the need to give marriage classes, weddings and RCIA classes (to bring them up to snuff on the English mass and sacraments) for that many new people wouldn’t be a small job.

Its probably just as well to bring them in individually, I would guess.
 
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jimmy:
And your point is? No one says hes not.

What you don’t accept the true presence in the Eucharist? You don’t have respect for the Eucharist?
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I do, but God doesn’t make nothing for your information. The spirit of Christ lives through us and wants us to do His will. At least that’s shown in the NO. mass, unlike the TLM where you feel like nothing serving instead of feeling like something serving God
We aren’t nothing in front of God, God is higher but it doesn’t mean we are nothing.
Podo
 
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Kielbasi:
bear06 writes: “This is not entirely true. Confessions and marriages are not valid since the SSPX do not have faculties to do them.”

This is what makes any reunion of the SSPX with the novus ordo totally problematic.

The SSPX is not a small organization, the need to give marriage classes, weddings and RCIA classes (to bring them up to snuff on the English mass and sacraments) for that many new people wouldn’t be a small job.

Its probably just as well to bring them in individually, I would guess.
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No, this is not true. LIke the Campos group, their marriages and confessions would be sanated which is canonically defined as to remove the invalidity of. The action of sanation has been historically used by the Church when large masses such as Campos return to the Church. Here’s the explanation by a canon lawyer who is an expert in this area.
The marriages were sanated by decree of the Holy Father, that is, retroactively made valid.
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Marriages after the reconciliation of the SSJV would be presumed valid by the Church.
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The same goes for confessions heard by the SSJV after their reconciliation. As for previous, presumably invalid, confessions; if the SSJV subsequently confess in good faith, these would
be wiped out by the priest’s absolution now that the priest has faculties
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In other words, because of this canon, it would be easier to bring in the SSPX as a whole rather than individually.

Then , the question of marriages/confessions disappears, and only the task of bringing the SSPX adherents up to speed on the English mass remains?
 
BTW, there is a canon that goes along with this.
Can. 1161 §1 The retroactive validation of an invalid marriage is its validation without the renewal of consent, granted by the competent authority. It involves a dispensation from an impediment if there is one and from the canonical form if it had not been observed, as well as a referral back to the past of the canonical effects. §2 The validation takes place from the moment the favour is granted; the referral back, however, is understood to have been made to the moment the marriage was celebrated, unless it is otherwise expressly provided.
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Kielbasi:
In other words, because of this canon, it would be easier to bring in the SSPX as a whole rather than individually.

Then , the question of marriages/confessions disappears, and only the task of bringing the SSPX adherents up to speed on the English mass remains?
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Yes. It really would be impossible to do this any other way. Can you imagine trying to track down the 1,000’s of people who married and confessed in these schismatic groups?

Actually, this is not entirely necessary either since they have an indult to say the TLM. I don’t think going from the Tridentine to the vernacular or the Vatican II Mass in Latin shouldn’t be a problem. It would be more of a learning challenge to go the other way since many don’t know Latin.
 
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bear06:
I don’t think this is correct. It might be illicit but I don’t think it’s invalid. Now, one might argue that the child didn’t make his First Confession first, however, this also still happens in some diocese and I don’t think I’ve heard that this made the First Communions invalid. The SSPX masses are illicit, not invalid, so this means that their Eucharist is also valid.
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I am probably confusing some of it… The First Confession might be where I am getting confused. In my parish the children aren’t allowed to make their First Communion without their First Confession. Thank you for the information. 🙂
 
Bear I will never be blessed with my own children so maybe that is why I don’t mind them fussing about at church. My mother hates the children’s Mass at any church, go figure? She can’t stand the noise. On the whole most children are well behaved even the little ones at my church but every once and a while a kids got to do what a kids got to do. But coming from a big family the sound of a child has never bothered me even at church.
I’ve brought my 11 year old nephew and he is very well behaved but we always aquire a few more children when he comes with me. He seems to be a magnet for children.The children and adults like to pat his hair, he is like a little lamb. High Mass is this weekend so we are having a Return of the King EE sleepover and Mass the next day. It will be his first High Mass I hope he likes it. He doesn’t seem to mind the priest with his back to us or the latin. He just reads the english in the Missel.
Kathy
 
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Podo2004:
I do, but God doesn’t make nothing for your information. The spirit of Christ lives through us and wants us to do His will. At least that’s shown in the NO. mass, unlike the TLM where you feel like nothing serving instead of feeling like something serving God
We aren’t nothing in front of God, God is higher but it doesn’t mean we are nothing.
Podo
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Yes, but we are just dust. Remember what the priest says when he gives you your ashes… Remember that you are dust and unto dust ye shall return
 
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Podo2004:
I do, but God doesn’t make nothing for your information. The spirit of Christ lives through us and wants us to do His will. At least that’s shown in the NO. mass, unlike the TLM where you feel like nothing serving instead of feeling like something serving God
Podo
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I can’t understand what your saying. What in the worlda re you talking about here?
 
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Podo2004:
I do, but God doesn’t make nothing for your information. The spirit of Christ lives through us and wants us to do His will. At least that’s shown in the NO. mass, unlike the TLM where you feel like nothing serving instead of feeling like something serving God
We aren’t nothing in front of God, God is higher but it doesn’t mean we are nothing.
Podo
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How do you know this? Have you ever been to a TLM?
 
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katolik:
I can’t understand what your saying. What in the worlda re you talking about here?
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That’s because you don’t listen katolik
Podo
 
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katolik:
I can’t understand what your saying. What in the worlda re you talking about here?
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In the spirit of unity I’ve got to say I’m not quite sure what you’re saying either. I’m betting you might be a mother/father of very young children who aren’t sleeping through the night. Oh yeah, that’s my excuse! 😉
 
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