Please explain differences in Masses

[HistoryTeacher]

I have been hearing so much recently (now that I’m an avid catholic radio listener) about various different masses that one can attend. Can someone please tell me the difference between:

Latin Mass

Novus Ordo

Tridentine

any others?

Thank you

Brandon

 

[MrS]

HistoryTeacher:

I have been hearing so much recently (now that I’m an avid catholic radio listener) about various different masses that one can attend. Can someone please tell me the difference between:

Latin Mass = today, most common is the NO said in Latin, with the readings and homily in English

Novus Ordo = the norm for the Catholic Mass today… with many differences from the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) or Tridentine Mass

Tridentine = The approved Mass prior to the NO. This is still a valid Mass and may be said by any priest as long as the 62 Missal is used… very different from todays norm… in prayer, in reverence, in Tradition etc. Slowly becoming much more appreciated. "It’s not the Latin, it’s the reverence."

any others?

Some would refer to a “Charismatic” Mass, or Youth Mass, or “Healing Mass” etc etc etc. But only the NO, the NO in Latin, and the Tridentine are valid.

Thank you

Brandon

 

[Franciscum]

HistoryTeacher:

I have been hearing so much recently (now that I’m an avid catholic radio listener) about various different masses that one can attend. Can someone please tell me the difference between:

Latin Mass

Novus Ordo

Tridentine

any others?

Thank you

Brandon

The “old Mass” or the “Latin Mass” is properly called the Tridentine Mass. The celebration of the Tridentine Mass (based on the 1962 Missal, and only the 1962 Missal) is via indult (special permission) from the Vatican, but it requires permission from the cognizant bishop. It’s not up to the individual celebrant.

The “new Mass” or “novus ordo Mass” prommulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969 can be celebrated in either the vernacular, Latin, or a combination of the two. This Mass is now the normative Mass for the Latin Church. It requires no indult.

There is also an Anglican Use Mass. Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected. A well celebrated Anglican Use Mass is stunning.

Masses can also be celebrated using the historic Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dominican, Carmelite,and Carthusian rites under special circumstances, all within the Latin Church.

So yes, you have several additional choices…

 

[misericordie]

Franciscum:

The “old Mass” or the “Latin Mass” is properly called the Tridentine Mass. The celebration of the Tridentine Mass (based on the 1962 Missal, and only the 1962 Missal) is via indult (special permission) from the Vatican, but it requires permission from the cognizant bishop. It’s not up to the individual celebrant.

The “new Mass” or “novus ordo Mass” prommulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969 can be celebrated in either the vernacular, Latin, or a combination of the two. This Mass is now the normative Mass for the Latin Church. It requires no indult.

There is also an Anglican Use Mass. Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected. A well celebrated Anglican Use Mass is stunning.

Masses can also be celebrated using the historic Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dominican, Carmelite,and Carthusian rites under special circumstances, all within the Latin Church.

So yes, you have several additional choices…

Regarding the Tridentine Latin Mass: the BEUTIFUL Mass, which since 1988 Pope John Paul II has requested Bishops provide the Indult for(the Mass BEFORE Vatican II) information can be requested at: www.ecclesiadei.org

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

MrS’s post contains a lot of inaccuracies and downright errors. I hope to clarify some of these.

The Roman Mass is the normative rite of the Latin Church.

But even the Roman Mass has its variations. There are primarily three of them:

1. The Missa Normativa: This is the Missal celebrated in the vast majority of Catholic parishes since 1970; it’s also known as the Novus Ordo, though many orthodox Catholics find this phrase to be somewhat pejorative. The Missa Normativa is the Church’s normative version of the Roman Mass. It may be celebrated in Latin or in English.
2. The Tridentine Mass: This is the version of the Missal celebrated by the vast majority of Catholic parishes from about 1570 to 1970. The Tridentine Mass and the Missa Normativa are essentially the same rite; the Missa Normtiva, however, is a drastically simplified version. (Some 70% of the prayers of the Tridentine Mass were removed when the Missal was revised in 1970.) The Tridentine Mass today can only be celebrated by indult, i.e. with special permission from one’s bishop or the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. This Mass can only be celebrated in Latin (though in certain places vernacular hymns may be sung in addition to the Latin chants).

The Tridentine Mass, in and of itself, is not “more reverent” than the Missa Normtiva. However, the Missa Normativa allows for many different “options” and even gives room for the celebrant to add spontaneous, unscripted commentary in certain places. And so there are many in the Church who feel the Latin Church’s current normative rite is easily abused, or “bastardized” to resemble something Protestant, or downright secular. This Missal may be celebrated in either Latin or the vernacular, although Latin is still officially the normative language.

(As per the Second Vatican Council, the Church legislates that, although the Missa Normtiva may be celebrated in the vernacular, it should be celebrated enough times with enough Latin that the faithful have memorized all the Ordinaries of the Mass *. Gregorian chant and the pipe-organ are to hold pride-of -place with regards to vocal and instrumental music respectively. These directives are almost never followed in the vast majority of parishes.)

In theory, the Missa Normtiva must be celebrated reverently, and only with sacred music (Latin or vernacular). Again, in practice this is almost never the case.

1. The Anglican Usage (i.e. the so-called “Anglican Rite”): this is the Roman Mass as it was celebrated in pre-Reformation England, and then revised by the more conservative Anglican Reformers. Since 1988, some converted Anglican ministers who have become Catholic priests have been given permission to celebrate this Missal, in Latin or in English. (The Rite, however, was tweaked a bit to make it more “Catholic”.)

(The extent to which this Missal reflects the liturgy of pre-Reformation England, and how much is Protestant invention, is a matter of debate.)

The phrase “Latin Mass” technically refers to the Mass when it is celebrated in the Latin language, whether we’re talking about the Missa Normativa, the Tridentine Mass, or the “Anglican Rite”. In practice, however, the phrase almost always is used in reference to the Tridentine Mass.

The Latin Church has several other rites currently in use, but these are relatively obscure, and their celebration limited mostly to certain localities.

There are also some six Eastern rites celebrated amongst the 23 Churches of Eastern Catholicism (not to be confused with the schismatic religions of Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and “Nestorianism”).

Hope that helps.*

 

[EddieArent]

What’s a “healing Mass?”

 

[katherine2]

EddieArent:

What’s a “healing Mass?”

usually a Mass which includes the Sacrament of the Annointing of the Sick and may otherwise use votive readings, intercessory prayer or a homily which touches on this concern and is held for the purpose of invoking God’s healing on the faithful present.

 

[Franciscum]

DominvsVobiscvm:

MrS’s post contains a lot of inaccuracies and downright errors. I hope to clarify some of these.

The Roman Mass is the normative rite of the Latin Church.

But even the Roman Mass has its variations. There are primarily three of them:

1. The Missa Normativa: This is the Missal celebrated in the vast majority of Catholic parishes since 1970; it’s also known as the Novus Ordo, though many orthodox Catholics find this phrase to be somewhat pejorative. The Missa Normativa is the Church’s normative version of the Roman Mass. It may be celebrated in Latin or in English.
2. The Tridentine Mass: This is the version of the Missal celebrated by the vast majority of Catholic parishes from about 1570 to 1970. The Tridentine Mass and the Missa Normativa are essentially the same rite; the Missa Normtiva, however, is a drastically simplified version. (Some 70% of the prayers of the Tridentine Mass were removed when the Missal was revised in 1970.) The Tridentine Mass today can only be celebrated by indult, i.e. with special permission from one’s bishop or the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. This Mass can only be celebrated in Latin (though in certain places vernacular hymns may be sung in addition to the Latin chants).

The Tridentine Mass, in and of itself, is not “more reverent” than the Missa Normtiva. However, the Missa Normativa allows for many different “options” and even gives room for the celebrant to add spontaneous, unscripted commentary in certain places. And so there are many in the Church who feel the Latin Church’s current normative rite is easily abused, or “bastardized” to resemble something Protestant, or downright secular. This Missal may be celebrated in either Latin or the vernacular, although Latin is still officially the normative language.

(As per the Second Vatican Council, the Church legislates that, although the Missa Normtiva may be celebrated in the vernacular, it should be celebrated enough times with enough Latin that the faithful have memorized all the Ordinaries of the Mass *. Gregorian chant and the pipe-organ are to hold pride-of -place with regards to vocal and instrumental music respectively. These directives are almost never followed in the vast majority of parishes…)

…There are also some six Eastern rites celebrated amongst the 23* Churches of Eastern Catholicism (not to be confused with the schismatic religions of Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and “Nestorianism”).

Hope that helps.
Nothing “secondary” about the remaining Mass types within the Latin Rite.

The Novus Ordo Mass may be celebrated in Latin, the vernacular or a combination of the two. It’s certainly not limited to “English.”

There are 22 Eastern Catholic Church and one Latin Rite Church.

The Tridentine Mass is just as easily abused as the Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Nothing “secondary” about the remaining Mass types within the Latin Rite.

I was speaking with regards to frequency of use, not an actual “primacy.”

The Novus Ordo Mass may be celebrated in Latin, the vernacular or a combination of the two. It’s certainly not limited to “English.”

Umm . . . that’s what I said . . .

There are 22 Eastern Catholic Church and one Latin Rite Church.

Actually, there are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburg (i.e. the “Byzantine Catholic Church in America”) is a sui iuris Church, completely autonomous from the Ruthenian Catholic Church of Eastern Europe.

The Tridentine Mass is just as easily abused as the Novus Ordo Mass.

I disagree, of course, and I believe my observations in this regard are confirmed by both the personal experience of the vast majority of Catholics, along with the variable nature of the Missa Normativa, which naturally makes it more abusable (or, when it isn’t abused, just plain tacky).

But make no mistake; I’m no rad-Trad. I’ve seen the Missa Normativa celebrated very reverently and traditionally, flawlessly even; both when I was a Cantian postulant and a freshman at Magdalen College.

Problem is, the Missa Normativa is most often celebrated in a tacky manner, even on the few occasions where there aren’t abuses.

Yes, the Tridentine Mass can, and has been, abused. However, the extent of abuse is by far greater in the current rite. At least when the Mass was always in Latin the priest was somewhat limited in what he could abuse.

 

[katolik]

DominvsVobiscvm:

MrS’s post contains a lot of inaccuracies and downright errors. I hope to clarify some of these.

The Roman Mass is the normative rite of the Latin Church.

But even the Roman Mass has its variations. There are primarily three of them:
(As per the Second Vatican Council, the Church legislates that, although the Missa Normtiva may be celebrated in the vernacular, it should be celebrated enough times with enough Latin that the faithful have memorized all the Ordinaries of the Mass *. Gregorian chant and the pipe-organ are to hold pride-of -place with regards to vocal and instrumental music respectively. These directives are almost never followed in the vast majority of parishes.)

In theory, the Missa Normtiva* must be celebrated reverently, and only with sacred music (Latin or vernacular). Again, in practice this is almost never the case.

1. The Anglican Usage (i.e. the so-called “Anglican Rite”): this is the Roman Mass as it was celebrated in pre-Reformation England, and then revised by the more conservative Anglican Reformers. Since 1988, some converted Anglican ministers who have become Catholic priests have been given permission to celebrate this Missal, in Latin or in English. (The Rite, however, was tweaked a bit to make it more “Catholic”.)

(The extent to which this Missal reflects the liturgy of pre-Reformation England, and how much is Protestant invention, is a matter of debate.)

The phrase “Latin Mass” technically refers to the Mass when it is celebrated in the Latin language, whether we’re talking about the Missa Normativa, the Tridentine Mass, or the “Anglican Rite”. In practice, however, the phrase almost always is used in reference to the Tridentine Mass.

The Latin Church has several other rites currently in use, but these are relatively obscure, and their celebration limited mostly to certain localities.

There are also some six Eastern rites celebrated amongst the 23 Churches of Eastern Catholicism (not to be confused with the schismatic religions of Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and “Nestorianism”).

Hope that helps. The ANglican Use rite is also a very obscure rite. I think there are only 10 parishes with this Mass available in the world.

My point is that the Anglican use is made to look more important than the venerable Monastic uses of Mass.

 

[Contarini]

I attended a Tridentine Mass yesterday for the second time in my life (the other was an SSPX Mass in Raleigh, NC seven years ago). I suppose “reverent” is the right word, inasmuch as the priest hardly said a word that was audible by the congregation for large parts of the Mass, and the congregation said practically nothing at all. Even when the priest is supposed to ask the people to pray with him that the sacrifice may be acceptable (“Orate fratres”) he didn’t even turn around and he said nothing at all that was audible from where I was. So “beautiful” is not a word I could possibly use about this Mass. I don’t understand the traditionalists who rave about the glory of the Traditional Mass. Sheer silence watching the back of the priest may have an austere Zen-like beauty of its own, I suppose.

Yes, I know this was a Low Mass and a High Mass would be very different. But I don’t understand what is lost by the people saying the responses, or by the priest saying at least parts of the Mass in a voice audible by the people.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Franciscum]

Contarini:

I attended a Tridentine Mass yesterday for the second time in my life (the other was an SSPX Mass in Raleigh, NC seven years ago). I suppose “reverent” is the right word, inasmuch as the priest hardly said a word that was audible by the congregation for large parts of the Mass, and the congregation said practically nothing at all. Even when the priest is supposed to ask the people to pray with him that the sacrifice may be acceptable (“Orate fratres”) he didn’t even turn around and he said nothing at all that was audible from where I was. So “beautiful” is not a word I could possibly use about this Mass. I don’t understand the traditionalists who rave about the glory of the Traditional Mass. Sheer silence watching the back of the priest may have an austere Zen-like beauty of its own, I suppose.

Yes, I know this was a Low Mass and a High Mass would be very different. But I don’t understand what is lost by the people saying the responses, or by the priest saying at least parts of the Mass in a voice audible by the people.

In Christ,

Edwin

Why do you think the new Mass was created? To address the very points you suggest.

While a small number thrive on the Tridentine Mass, a huge number are better nourished by the new Mass.

It’s too bad the indult for the Tridentine Mass wasn’t immediate, for it may well have died out on its own had that been the case…

 

[katolik]

Franciscum:

Why do you think the new Mass was created? To address the very points you suggest.

While a small number thrive on the Tridentine Mass, a huge number are better nourished by the new Mass.

It’s too bad the indult for the Tridentine Mass wasn’t immediate, for it may well have died out on its own had that been the case…

Ya, sure the TLM is going to die. Especially with such small families
www.jmjtcards.com/jmjthomepage_002.htm
[these people go to an SSPX Mass]
I know, man… Isn’t it pretty normal to have 8 children?? What’s the average number of children per family??? Like 2,yeah 2. We all know that 2 and 8 are the same thing,right?

Anyways, the TLM is disadvantaged, in that we don’t have enough TLM’s,becuase our bishops will not allow them. How many NO Masses have to have the permission of the bishop to be said?

An example of this is that at St.Peter’s basilica a priest-sacristan came up to the altar and took the Missal off the altar and ran off with it, in the middle of Mass!!! The crime was that the TLM was being said and this was an indult priest!!! Are you and people like you afraid of a true renewal of CHristian life?Are you afraid that people will kneel infront of the Tabernacle?[but our bishop prohibited it] Are you afraid that seminaries will be full? Are you afraid of full nunneries and convents? Are you afraid of full schools? Are you afraid of people who actually don’t use contraceptives and have many many children?
The longer the TLM is kept down, the longer you keep the Church down. The longer you condemn the TLM to hell, the longer you put your soul and your childen’s souls to hell. Its your choice,hell or heaven man

 

[AmyS]

katolik:

The longer the TLM is kept down, the longer you keep the Church down. The longer you condemn the TLM to hell, the longer you put your soul and your childen’s souls to hell. Its your choice,hell or heaven man

Now, I am going to hell because I attend a NO mass… You are SSPX right?

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Franciscum:

Why do you think the new Mass was created? To address the very points you suggest.

While a small number thrive on the Tridentine Mass, a huge number are better nourished by the new Mass.

It’s too bad the indult for the Tridentine Mass wasn’t immediate, for it may well have died out on its own had that been the case…

I don’t think the Tridentine Mass is going to die out anytime soon! It seems to just be getting bigger and bigger. From personal experience, our parish is growing every year. And the Holy Father obviously thinks there is a need for more Tridentine Masses or else he wouldn’t give permission and endorse societies that only offer the Tridentine Mass. For example, The Institute of Christ the King, which operates my parish.

 

[katolik]

AmyS:

Now, I am going to hell because I attend a NO mass… You are SSPX right?

No, and no.
The condemnation of the TLM[a la Franciscum] is harmful to yours soul and the CHurch. Hoping the Traditonal Latin Mass will die away is not conductive to your salvation, ne c’est pas?

I another sense of the word “hell” I speak of, is the madness currently rampant in the Church,such as which this forum has many examples. Here’s some examples “Should the Precious Blood be distributed in flasks or chalices? should we kneel or not kneel for the Eucharist? EHMC blessing children? Protestant Music at Mass” and most succintly “Is our Mass valid?” This is anarachy, pure and simple. How amny more years of this must we have?

 

[MrS]

katolik:

Ya, sure the TLM is going to die. Especially with such small families
www.jmjtcards.com/jmjthomepage_002.htm
[these people go to an SSPX Mass]
I know, man… Isn’t it pretty normal to have 8 children?? What’s the average number of children per family??? Like 2,yeah 2. We all know that 2 and 8 are the same thing,right?

Anyways, the TLM is disadvantaged, in that we don’t have enough TLM’s,becuase our bishops will not allow them. How many NO Masses have to have the permission of the bishop to be said?

An example of this is that at St.Peter’s basilica a priest-sacristan came up to the altar and took the Missal off the altar and ran off with it, in the middle of Mass!!! The crime was that the TLM was being said and this was an indult priest!!! Are you and people like you afraid of a true renewal of CHristian life?Are you afraid that people will kneel infront of the Tabernacle?[but our bishop prohibited it] Are you afraid that seminaries will be full? Are you afraid of full nunneries and convents? Are you afraid of full schools? Are you afraid of people who actually don’t use contraceptives and have many many children?
The longer the TLM is kept down, the longer you keep the Church down. The longer you condemn the TLM to hell, the longer you put your soul and your childen’s souls to hell. Its your choice,hell or heaven man

I feel your pain and I agree. Thankfully the “few” who want more of the TLM are growing in number. In the meantime I pray at a valid and licit NO that more will have an easier choice to worship God as more and more good seminarians are ordained, and more and more weak bishops are replaced.

 

[Pandora]

I go to the Indult Mass in Boston and the families here are huge. That was the first thing that shocked my Mom. The norn is 6-8 and we have 2 families of 10 and growing. So I don’t think the TLM will die our. So far we have sent 3 men from our Mass to the seminary. Last night after Mass over 30 men stayed to pray together. The Holy Name Society does that after Mass every week but many of these men were not part of the society. When I looked back before I exited the Church I thought there has to be a vocation or 2 there.
We have 4 regular priets that say Mass for us and only one rushes sometimes. The others take there time and do it right. We have a pretty vocal crowd if they feel the priest wasn’t following to letter of the law. I was lucky because my first 3 Masses the priest was a little hard of hearing so he was really load and I could hear pretty much everything. The priest does not have his back to us the whole time but most of the time. Our priests says the Epistle and Gospel again in English before he starts the homily.
To each his own I guess. I love it and because I have to really make an effort to go as it is not close by I think I get more from it.
Kathy

 

[AmyS]

katolik:

No, and no.
The condemnation of the TLM[a la Franciscum] is harmful to yours soul and the CHurch. Hoping the Traditonal Latin Mass will die away is not conductive to your salvation, ne c’est pas?

I another sense of the word “hell” I speak of, is the madness currently rampant in the Church,such as which this forum has many examples. Here’s some examples “Should the Precious Blood be distributed in flasks or chalices? should we kneel or not kneel for the Eucharist? EHMC blessing children? Protestant Music at Mass” and most succintly “Is our Mass valid?” This is anarachy, pure and simple. How amny more years of this must we have?

Well, I have never put down TLM, and I don’t plan on it either… I think it is a beautiful mass but I agree with others who say it isn’t any holier than a good, liturgically correct, reverant NO mass. We are talking about the Mass and not the people. The churches that abuse the liturgy, and that aren’t in communion with the church, like SSPX are what I am assuming you are talking about. I know that I am not going to hell becuase of the NO mass I attend, my SSPX friend would beg to differ. I all around don’t understand the put downs on either side. Nobody is better, TLM or NO… Again, the focus of the Mass is THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST. I hope for more good priest that hold high the true teaching of the church, and nuns that do too.

How many more years of this…? I don’t know, it seems many are noticeing and doing things about it. I also know that we have churches to attend Mass in and some don’t or in the past haven’t. In some countries it was against the law to practice the Catholic faith and many where martyred because of it. We are blessed no matter what.

 

[Podo2004]

AmyS:

Now, I am going to hell because I attend a NO mass… You are SSPX right?

No you’re not going to hell for celebrating the No. Mass… honestly…how could someone go to hell for celebrating THE most joyful,beautiful and reverant mass?
Podo