Please Explain -- Pope breaks with protocol by bowing to Queen Rania of Jordan

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Brother JR

Your comments highlight something Francis said when he was meeting with his order a couple of weeks back.
Asked during his in-flight remarks on the way home from Rio how his 55 years in the Society of Jesus impacted his new ministry as bishop of Rome, Francis – shown above embracing Ignatius’ 28th successor, Father-General Adolfo Nicolás, on departing today’s rites – said in reply that "It’s a theological question, because Jesuits make [the fourth vow] of obedience to the Pope [for the service of the missions]. But if the Pope is a Jesuit, maybe he should make his vow of obedience to the General of the Jesuits.
“I don’t know how to resolve this,” the Pope continued. "I feel myself a Jesuit in my spirituality; in the spirituality of The Exercises, the spirituality I have in my heart. But I especially feel this going into the feast of St Ignatius with the Jesuits.
“I haven’t changed my spirituality, no. Francis, Franciscan: no. I feel myself [as] a Jesuit and I think as a Jesuit.”
whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2013/07/us-jesuits-on-ignatius-day-pope-comes.html
 
So then your wording in this post was a mistake.

If we need a Papal Coronation, then we should have a law that requires it.

If we don’t want to create such a law, then the need is not that great or may not exist at all.
Sure maybe a better way of wording it would be:
IMHO this type of thinking is exactly why I believe we could use a Papal Coronation these days
Feel free to call off your legions of woodland creatures. No attack necessary, today Br.
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😃
 
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Sure maybe a better way of wording it would be:

IMHO this type of thinking is exactly why I believe we could use a Papal Coronation these days
Fair enough. Everyone can have an opinion, as long as we don’t promote it as if it should be law.
Brother JR

Your comments highlight something Francis said when he was meeting with his order a couple of weeks back.

whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2013/07/us-jesuits-on-ignatius-day-pope-comes.html
He has said this several times in different situations. The other thing that he has said is that he is not Italian, he’s Hispanic from Argentina. He made that very clear at WYD. Americans, especially insist on calling him Italian.

I understand that most American Catholics never get to see this stuff on TV or read about it. But those who do should respect it. It is those people who have read these things, watched them on TV or are better informed as to how the papacy and the religious life go together who should be educating those who raise the “scandal flag” every time the pope acts like a religious. Instead, some of these folks seem annoyed that he acts like a religious or they seem to believe that the man’s vocation to be a religious is beneath his election to the papacy, forgetting that the papacy is an office and religious life is a covenant.

They are both important and necessary for the Church and for the pope’s salvation. But they are different, not in conflict with each other. This is important. Different does not have to be mutually exclusive.
 
Fair enough. Everyone can have an opinion, as long as we don’t promote it as if it should be law.
Agreed. 👍

Also I hope the picture in my last comment did not offend you Br. I did not post it to be rude but to be humorous. I always pictured St. Francis using his ability to speak with animals to mass an army of woodland creatures. Anyway again I hope it did not offend you. If so then I’m very sorry and I hope you accept my apology.

God bless.
 
Agreed. 👍

Also I hope the picture in my last comment did not offend you Br. I did not post it to be rude but to be humorous. I always pictured St. Francis using his ability to speak with animals to mass an army of woodland creatures. Anyway again I hope it did not offend you. If so then I’m very sorry and I hope you accept my apology.

God bless.
I have two comments on the pic.
  1. How did you get that little gerbil to hold that gun?
  2. Next time, can you use something else other than a rodent? Rodents actually terrify me. I have this vision of mice and rats attacking me.
You’re going to think I’m nuts and maybe I am. When I was a kid, I saw a movie named Charlie. It left quite an impression on me. From that day forward, I have not been able to look at or hold a rodent.

I love cats, dogs and rabbits. 🙂

That’s one thing that I would change at the Vatican, were I to be pope or secretary of state. They still have a law in their books that dates back to the Middle Ages, before the basilica was built, banning cats. The reason for the ban was the belief of the time that cats were evil. No one has bothered to change the law.

The thing about the ban on cats is true, but it’s also an example of how the Vatican adopted customs and practices and then forgot where they came from, because time passes. When someone comes in and does something different, many people are rattled.

It’s the same with popes. None of us lived before 1800. We have forgotten that prior to that, it was religious who held the largest number of popes, not secular clergy. Religious brought their own customs and practices to the papacy. Some of those remain with us today, such as the white clothing, the use of a cowl on a cardinal’s robes (from monastic habits), the use of the pectoral cross (from abbots), the central altar at St. Peter (from monasteries).

When the election of secular clergy to the papacy became more and more frequent, some of these customs that came from the religious orders faded away. But secular clergy don’t have their own customs, because they are not part of a family. They brought customs from their native lands and native dioceses. One of those was the ceremony. What to the popes who were religious were liturgical ceremonies rooted in the customs of their orders, to the popes who were diocesan priests, these ceremonies became regal expressions and they became bigger, more colorful, more complex and more splendid. This was reinforced by the fact that many of these popes came from the nobility. This was very natural to them.

As with the cats, with the passage of time, we forget how all of this developed and we create rules in our heads and in practice that are not truly rules.

There is a little story that seems to fascinate people today, but did not fascinate people of the time. When Bonaventure was given the red hat, it was delivered to the friary where he was superior of the house. He was not general superior, yet. The pope’s messenger found him doing dishes. Bonaventure instructed him to hang it on a branch of a tree by the scullery.

When the general chapter came along, Bonaventure was elected general superior. The general chapter voted that the superior general was to write the definitive biography of St. Francis. At the time Bonaventure was a cardinal and a diocesan bishop. He moved to Assisi, leaving his diocese in the hands of an administrator and would go to Rome for special events when the pope summoned the cardinals. He was known to all as Brother Bonaventure.

To us in the 21st century, the idea of a bishop leaving his diocese in someone else’s hands so that he can write a biography and govern his religious order sounds crazy. But that’s because our bishops are usually secular clergy who belong to a diocese in the first place. To those people, bishops were usually monks or friars. They saw nothing amiss about it. Nor did they see anything amiss that the cardinal wore a grey habit, a cincture, no shoes and was called Brother, not Eminence.

Let’s say Cardinal Sean of Boston had been elected. People’s head would still be turning. Just look at America. The man signs Cardinal Sean on everything. He introduces himself as Cardinal Sean. Why? Because he’s one of the traditionalist religious who never went back to his birth name. But we insist on calling him Cardinal O’Malley. The same with the pope. He was always Father Jorge, not Cardinal Bergoglio. But we insist on referring to him as Cardinal Bergoglio. Why? Because it’s the secular way of doing things and it’s the secular way of showing respect. To the religious, it’s not important to use his family name, because he no longer belongs to his biological family.

It’s all about getting used to something that is new and old at the same time.
 
Agreed and thank you … I support in freedom of expression.
At the risk of being tossed off this site for being uncharitable, WHO CARES?
There are far more issues to be concerned about, like Syria and Iran, and the state of ones own soul!
 
Is everything about religon? It just dawned on me: he is a Latin male … I have seen this before … couldn’t this just be a cultural expression. Latin men, south americans in particular, if raised well and following traditions, are very respectful of women (thank goodness). They recognize women, maybe not an obvious bow, but a nod of the head: men on the East Coast and in the South in the states used to do this, too.
👍 I like it … there is nothing wrong with having manners.
Please Explain

Pope breaks with protocol by bowing to Queen Rania of Jordan

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10276319/Pope-breaks-with-protocol-by-bowing-to-Queen-Rania-of-Jordan.html

As head of state at the Vatican, not to mention the leader of the world’s 1.2 billion catholics, protocol requires visitors to bow to him when they meet him at the Holy See.
But Francis, who has made the forgetting of formalities a trademark of his papacy, bowed when he met a smiling Rania as she visited the Vatican with her husband King Abdullah II on Thursday.

“Up until the 19th century visitors would kiss the pope’s shoes, and the tradition is still that all visitors, women included, bow to him, but Francis behaves as he did before he became pope and is not interested in protocol,” a senior Vatican official told The Daily Telegraph.
It is not the first time the Pope has eschewed formality when receiving visitors.

When Cristina Kirchner, Argentina’s president, met him in March, a day before his formal inauguration, he gave her a kiss after she presented him with a gourd for mate, the traditional Argentine tea.

Thanks and God bless you…

– Mark
 
How would St. Francis of Assisi great someone he wants to win over? That may be the right way to understand this Pope.🙂
 
Did we mention that Rania also showed courtesy by covering her hair, she does not always do that? I for one am glad that the King and Queen of Jordan met with the Pope as I support interfaith dialogue and understanding: we won’t get far without it.
Please Explain

Pope breaks with protocol by bowing to Queen Rania of Jordan

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10276319/Pope-breaks-with-protocol-by-bowing-to-Queen-Rania-of-Jordan.html

As head of state at the Vatican, not to mention the leader of the world’s 1.2 billion catholics, protocol requires visitors to bow to him when they meet him at the Holy See.
But Francis, who has made the forgetting of formalities a trademark of his papacy, bowed when he met a smiling Rania as she visited the Vatican with her husband King Abdullah II on Thursday.

“Up until the 19th century visitors would kiss the pope’s shoes, and the tradition is still that all visitors, women included, bow to him, but Francis behaves as he did before he became pope and is not interested in protocol,” a senior Vatican official told The Daily Telegraph.
It is not the first time the Pope has eschewed formality when receiving visitors.

When Cristina Kirchner, Argentina’s president, met him in March, a day before his formal inauguration, he gave her a kiss after she presented him with a gourd for mate, the traditional Argentine tea.

Thanks and God bless you…

– Mark
 
Personally I did not think it was a curtsey like say one would/ meant to give Royalty, but rather the Holy Father did not bow to King Abdullah , but I just think it was like a gentlemen’s bow to Queen Rania as a woman, look how he holds Our Lady in such high esteem, I personally think he holds the same for all women, a respect hence the bow, but no bow for King Abdullah, as Queen Rania is a Moslem she might not like a kiss, hence she got a bow instead. This of course is my personal opinion looking at the picture and reading how Our present Holy Father operates.
Thank you for this post!!

Your;) friendly neighborhood Methodist was sitting here, thinking, 🤷“Gee, and me thinking that the pope was just being a nice mannerly gentleman”🤷, & then this post made me bold enough to say,🙂
“Hey!! I think that the pope maybe is just one of those nice kinda guys with old-fashioned manners about the way he treats ladies”. (And I am old enough to think that is kinda nice, especially these days, you know?)
 
How would St. Francis of Assisi great someone he wants to win over? That may be the right way to understand this Pope.🙂
The pope is not a Franciscan. He is a Jesuit. A better question is how would St. Ignatius do it. The answer is, St. Ignatius would bow to royalty, because it is expected of a religious. You always bow lower to the queen than to the king so as to avoid eye contact with females.
 
How would St. Francis of Assisi great someone he wants to win over? That may be the right way to understand this Pope.🙂
I’m not sure that Francis went out of his way to win people over: he more often rejoiced for being scourged, beaten, spit on or otherwise reviled for the sake of his Lord.

The Earlier rule, chap XXII 3.
“Our friends, then, are all those who unjustly afflict upon us trials and ordeals, shame and injustices, sorrows and torments, martyrdom and death; we must love them greatly for we will posses eternal life because of what they bring upon us.”
 
I’m not sure that Francis went out of his way to win people over: he more often rejoiced for being scourged, beaten, spit on or otherwise reviled for the sake of his Lord.

The Earlier rule, chap XXII 3.
Let’s not misread the man. If you want to know the man, ask his sons. St. Francis did not seek special privileges. This is true. But he was always a gentleman and insisted that his brothers do the same. He complied with the social norms expected of religious.

It is very unfair to him to read something from his writing and not look at the Franciscan tradition. Then we’re reading it out of context.
 
Let’s not misread the man. If you want to know the man, ask his sons. St. Francis did not seek special privileges. This is true. But he was always a gentleman and insisted that his brothers do the same. He complied with the social norms expected of religious.

It is very unfair to him to read something from his writing and not look at the Franciscan tradition. Then we’re reading it out of context.
I didn’t mean he sought to be unpopular, just that he did not seek to be popular.
 
Thank you for this post!!

Your;) friendly neighborhood Methodist was sitting here, thinking, 🤷“Gee, and me thinking that the pope was just being a nice mannerly gentleman”🤷, & then this post made me bold enough to say,🙂
“Hey!! I think that the pope maybe is just one of those nice kinda guys with old-fashioned manners about the way he treats ladies”. (And I am old enough to think that is kinda nice, especially these days, you know?)
Trad Catholics take note.
Wise words from our beloved cat-loving Methodist Zooey.
👍
 
I

Because he’s one of the traditionalist religious who never went back to his birth name. But we insist on calling him Cardinal O’Malley.
Maybe that is for people outside the diocese, but everyone I know from Boston calls him Cardinal Sean 😃
 
I didn’t mean he sought to be unpopular, just that he did not seek to be popular.
I just want to make sure that people understand the difference. St. Francis is one of those people that many people read incorrectly.
Maybe that is for people outside the diocese, but everyone I know from Boston calls him Cardinal Sean 😃
I’ve been to Boston many times. You people are blessed with one of the holiest men in the Capuchin Order. I know, because I lived and worked with him for three years when I was a Capuchin. We’ve been friends since 1970.

Bostonian Catholics (the good ones) are also very familiar with Franciscanism. You are fortunate enough to have the largest concentration of Franciscans in the USA. 😃

You have

Capuchin
Friars Minor
Little Brothers of St. Francis
Franciscans of the Primitive Observance
Franciscans of the Immaculate
Poor Clares
Sisters of St. Francis
Conventuals

I know that I’m missing one or two Franciscan communities. Anyway, Franciscan and Boston go together way back. It’s the same in the Southwest.
 
-snip-
  1. Next time, can you use something else other than a rodent? Rodents actually terrify me. I have this vision of mice and rats attacking me.
-snip-

I love cats, dogs and rabbits. 🙂
But… but… but Brother… rabbits are rodents too… 😛
How would St. Francis of Assisi great someone he wants to win over? That may be the right way to understand this Pope.🙂
The pope is not a Franciscan. He is a Jesuit. A better question is how would St. Ignatius do it. The answer is, St. Ignatius would bow to royalty, because it is expected of a religious. You always bow lower to the queen than to the king so as to avoid eye contact with females.
Let’s not forget that St. Ignatius was part of the Basque nobility and a Spanish knight/soldier.
 
There is a connection between Ignatius and Francis of Assisi that most people don’t know, unless they are Franciscan or Jesuits.

Ignatius did write to his sons. “I want us to do what St. Francis did.”

Whatever the Jesuits do that looks Franciscan, it’s because it was Ignatius’ wish.
 
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