Please explain the Catholic understanding of "perseverance of the saints"

[TULIPed]

The original context shows that whether a person becomes a vessel of wrath is because of that person, like the clay is reshaped becuase it slackens.

And yet, from Paul we have this:

“ It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,‘Why did you make me like this?’ 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?“

Yes God can save who He will, but it’s no secret who He shows mercy to.

And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.
Luke 1:50

And yes - we hold his sovereignty in tension with is great mercy and love. In this age of post-modernism, we’re trained to value ourselves. As Christians - as human beings - we have great value - we were “bought with a price” after all. And yet, we always do well to lift up Christ and affirm his supremacy over all.

Man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. The more we make it about Him - and the less about us - the better off we’ll be I think.

 

[TULIPed]

This proves that it’s 100% God, since He gave the gift, and 100% man because man perseveres.

You and I will have to agree to disagree friend. Any perseverance we have is a gift from God, for without Christ, we can do nothing:

“I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. ”

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And yet, from Paul we have this:

“ It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,‘Why did you make me like this?’ 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?“

Read on.

What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Romans 9:30‭-‬33 NRSV-CI

Point proven God isn’t being arbitrary. Unbelieving Israel gets hardened because unbelieving Israel looks for the wrong things. Which is the case for every person who’s not chosen. The chosen, however, get that status Because they recognize its a gift.

Unconditional election isn’t what’s being preached in the passage. It’s whether God is being fair to give favor to believers and not to unbelievers.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And yes - we hold his sovereignty in tension with is great mercy and love. In this age of post-modernism, we’re trained to value ourselves. As Christians - as human beings - we have great value - we were “bought with a price” after all. And yet, we always do well to lift up Christ and affirm his supremacy over all.

Man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. The more we make it about Him - and the less about us - the better off we’ll be I think.

God’s sovereignty is BECAUSE of His mercy, not in spite of it.

If you, O Lord , should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with you, so that you may be revered.
Psalms 130:3‭-‬4 NRSV-CI

Psalms 130:3-4 If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with you, so that you may be revered. | New Revised Standard Version Catholic Interconfessional (NRSV-CI) | Download The Bible App Now

And yes we make it all about Him, but it’s because He made it all about us.

Who is like the Lord our God, who is seated on high, who looks far down on the heavens and the earth? He raises the poor from the dust, and lifts the needy from the ash heap,
Psalms 113:5‭-‬7 NRSV-CI

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You and I will have to agree to disagree friend. Any perseverance we have is a gift from God, for without Christ, we can do nothing:

“I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. ”

Aren’t gifts generally accepted?

The beauty of the passage of the vibe and the branches is what you can do WITH Christ. Without Him we can do nothing, but with Him we can do ALL THINGS.

I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Philippians 4:13 NRSV-CI

 

[TULIPed]

Point proven God isn’t being arbitrary.

Reformed theology doesn’t believe God is being arbitrary - about anything. On the contrary, we would agree with Job (as I’m sure you do as well):

“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

Look - I get it. Man has value (Job’s statement relative to God notwithstanding). Calvinism’s weakness - in my opinion - is that it tends to devalue human beings - especially when incorrectly understood and taught. We do have great worth and value in that we were bought with a great price. We are salt and light in the world. We are (clay) vessels of the living God. God does use us and involve us in His plans. Properly catechized Reformed Christians believe all of this.

However, I do believe that Calvinism does a good job - probably the best of any theological construct in my opinion - of focusing our eyes on Christ. The two great commandments after all are focused entirely AWAY from us - the first towards God, and the second towards our neighbor.

 

[TULIPed]

Unconditional election isn’t what’s being preached in the passage. It’s whether God is being fair to give favor to believers and not to unbelievers.

What did Jacob believe relative to Esau?

“ And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

(Great CAF handle BTW. I can’t believe it was available? Makes me want to try to get Gaius Octavius)

 

[TULIPed]

Aren’t gifts generally accepted?

You’re stuck on the side of the road in the middle of the desert. You haven’t had anything to drink for days. I drive by, see you and stop. I get out of the car. You call me a jerk and kick me in the shin. I hand you my car keys and tell you there’s a service station 100 miles away. You take the car.

And as you pull in the service station, you congratulate yourself for accepting the gift?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

What did Jacob believe relative to Esau?

Esau despised his birthright.

Jacob would’ve done anything short of murder to get it.

Is faith a work?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You’re stuck on the side of the road in the middle of the desert. You haven’t had anything to drink for days. I drive by, see you and stop. I get out of the car. You call me a jerk and kick me in the shin. I hand you my car keys and tell you there’s a service station 100 miles away. You take the car.

And as you pull in the service station, you congratulate yourself for accepting the gift?

Or you don’t take the car and raise your fist at the driver.

Does the driver force you to come into the car? Or do you say yes or no?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

However, I do believe that Calvinism does a good job - probably the best of any theological construct in my opinion - of focusing our eyes on Christ. The two great commandments after all are focused entirely AWAY from us - the first towards God, and the second towards our neighbor.

Those two commandments are on equal footing. You can’t love God and hate your neighbor. Ask Cain.

 

[TULIPed]

Esau despised his birthright.

Jacob would’ve done anything short of murder to get it.

Gotcha. Just so we’re on the same page - you think that Paul’s point here is that God picked Jacob because he wanted the birthright more than Esau - even though the deal was done while (actually before - see Ephesians 1:2) they were in the womb?

"23 The Lord said to her,

“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”

(Which, I just realized is another Biblical story in support of being pro-life)

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Gotcha. Just so we’re on the same page - you think that Paul’s point here is that God picked Jacob because he wanted the birthright more than Esau - even though the deal was done while (actually before - see Ephesians 1:2) they were in the womb?

That’s the foreknowledge of God at work.

See Romans 8:29

 

[TULIPed]

That’s the foreknowledge of God at work.

See Romans 8:29

“29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.”

Agreed. There is foreknowledge. There is also predestination. But why?

Look across the Biblical story in terms of God’s relationship to his people - who does the choosing (in spite of who or what they are)? Take the entire nation of Israel for example:

"7 It was not because you were more numerous than any other people that the Lord set his heart on you and chose you—for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 It was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath that he swore to your ancestors, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. "

Or David:

10 And Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. And Samuel said to Jesse, “The Lord has not chosen these.” 11 Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Are all your sons here?” And he said, “There remains yet the youngest,1 but behold, he is keeping the sheep.” And Samuel said to Jesse, “Send and get him, for we will not sit down till he comes here.” 12 And he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the Lord said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he.”

Or Abraham or Jacob or Moses or…it goes on and on and on. God does the choosing - often in spite of the glaring failures of those to be chosen. The entire lineage of Christ is a collection of misfits, thieves and failures for goodness sake.

Yes, yes - I know - the people of Israel agreed to be in covenant with God (and broke it over and over again), I suppose David agreed (sort of) to be anointed, Abraham “agreed” to do what God commanded. Mary said “yes” (thank God). I will concede (grudgingly) that you could argue that they “cooperated” with God. Yes, God calls us to be in partnership with Him to change the world.

I think though that there is great danger in focusing on those cooperating vs. the One choosing. Especially now, in the age of post-modernism, where it’s all about me. Calvinism, for all its faults, is purposeful in its focus on the Chooser vs. the chosen.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And with the people of Israel, they made the choice to accept God’s call.

Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, “Thus you will tell the house of Jacob, and declare to the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt and how I lifted you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. And now, if you will diligently listen to me and keep my covenant, then you will be my special possession out of all the nations, for all the earth is mine, and you will be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.” So Moses came and summoned the elders of Israel. He set before them all these words that the Lord had commanded him, and all the people answered together, “All that the Lord has commanded we will do!” So Moses brought the words of the people back to the Lord
Exodus 19:3‭-‬8 NET

And we see this with David why he was chosen.

Then Samuel said to Saul, “You have made a foolish choice! You have not obeyed the commandment that the Lord your God gave you. Had you done that, the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever! But now your kingdom will not continue! The Lord has sought out for himself a man who is loyal to him and the Lord has appointed him to be leader over his people, for you have not obeyed what the Lord commanded you.”
1 Samuel 13:13‭-‬14 NET

The thing with Calvinism is that it sets a false dichotomy between the Chooser and His chosen. No one is elected against their will and no one is damned against their will. God is sovereign over all His creation. But as God through Jeremiah said,

“I, the Lord , say: ‘O nation of Israel, can I not deal with you as this potter deals with the clay? In my hands, you, O nation of Israel, are just like the clay in this potter’s hand.’ There are times, Jeremiah, when I threaten to uproot, tear down, and destroy a nation or kingdom. But if that nation I threatened stops doing wrong, I will cancel the destruction I intended to do to it. And there are times when I promise to build up and establish a nation or kingdom. But if that nation does what displeases me and does not obey me, then I will cancel the good I promised to do to it.
Jeremiah 18:6‭-‬10 NET

God’s choice is based on His foreknowledge. It’s not in opposition to it.

 

[TULIPed]

And with the people of Israel, they made the choice to accept God’s call.

Yes - I mentioned that in my post here:

Yes, yes - I know - the people of Israel agreed to be in covenant with God (and broke it over and over again), I suppose David agreed (sort of) to be anointed, Abraham “agreed” to do what God commanded. Mary said “yes” (thank God). I will concede (grudgingly) that you could argue that they “cooperated” with God. Yes, God calls us to be in partnership with Him to change the world.

They made the good choice…except…when they didn’t. Over, and over and over. And so - God chose to keep his end of the bargain in spite of Israel’s (and just about everyone else in the Bible except Jesus) repeated rebellion. I’d post some scripture, but the PGA is on and I’m too lazy, so I’ll just point the book of Hosea.

And so - back to the OP: who is really responsible for the perseverance of the Biblical heroes? Does Israel get credit for holding its end of the Mosaic covenant? I think you’d agree that God gets the credit for that bargain - both in its proposition and it’s ultimate fulfillment. God carried through in spite of His counter-party’s default.

And so I’ll ask you - how much credit do you take for your salvation? In your relationship with Christ - how much of where you are today was based on what you did versus what God did? A Reformed Christian would say that we have a relationship with Christ thanks entirely to God. And like Israel - that faith will persevere - not because of anything we do, but all because of what He does.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

They made the good choice…except…when they didn’t. Over, and over and over. And so - God chose to keep his end of the bargain in spite of Israel’s (and just about everyone else in the Bible except Jesus) repeated rebellion. I’d post some scripture, but the PGA is on and I’m too lazy, so I’ll just point the book of Hosea.

And Israel suffered for it, dearly. Remember Romans 10.

But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “ I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger .” And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “ I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me .” But about Israel he says, “ All day long I held out my hands to this disobedient and stubborn people! ”
Romans 10:19‭-‬21 NET

Israel proves the Catholic point that a person’s free will matters in salvation.

And so - back to the OP: who is really responsible for the perseverance of the Biblical heroes? Does Israel get credit for holding its end of the Mosaic covenant? I think you’d agree that God gets the credit for that bargain - both in its proposition and it’s ultimate fulfillment. God carried through in spite of His counter-party’s default.

God’s the origin of our endurance. But we aren’t His robots. And it’s certainly not His fault if we don’t persevere. It’s ours.
When a wicked person turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will preserve his life. Because he considered and turned from all the sins he had done, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The Lord’s conduct is unjust!’ Is my conduct unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your conduct that is unjust? “Therefore I will judge each person according to his conduct, O house of Israel, declares the sovereign Lord . Repent and turn from all your wickedness; then it will not be an obstacle leading to iniquity. Throw away all your sins you have committed and fashion yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no delight in the death of anyone, declares the sovereign Lord . Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18:27‭-‬32 NET

Why would God exhort Israel to repent if they couldn’t do it?

And so I’ll ask you - how much credit do you take for your salvation? In your relationship with Christ - how much of where you are today was based on what you did versus what God did? A Reformed Christian would say that we have a relationship with Christ thanks entirely to God. And like Israel - that faith will persevere - not because of anything we do, but all because of what He does.

Again, it’s synergy. Else why would God through the Prophets and His Son tell us to repent if it was impossible for us to do so? This is where Reformed Theology fails.

 

[TULIPed]

God’s the origin of our endurance.

A HA!

Again, it’s synergy. Else why would God through the Prophets and His Son tell us to repent if it was impossible for us to do so? This is where Reformed Theology fails.

Ah - but you didn’t answer the question. You gave me a good, solid seminary answer. Well done.

I’m asking you as a fellow believer - how much credit do you take for your salvation - any part of it? I know your answer because - although we’ve never met - I have a pretty good idea by your writing that you love the Lord. You take no credit because you know - like I do - that you don’t deserve what God’s given you in your love for Christ. You look back on your life and you wonder how on earth you were fortunate enough to be born into a Christian family, or have a good Catholic friend who introduced you to the faith, or met your partner and on and on. You know that all of it is a gift from God. And you’re profoundly thankful.

Reformed theology has its issues - but at it’s core, it gives everything to God. Perhaps it over-reaches, but if I’m going to err, I’m going to err on the side of giving God too much credit - for everything including my salvation - which was decided before the beginning of creation. (I hope.)

 

[Julius_Caesar]

A HA!

Nope. The origin. Just like how I put gas in a car to keep it running.

Reformed theology has its issues - but at it’s core, it gives everything to God. Perhaps it over-reaches, but if I’m going to err, I’m going to err on the side of giving God too much credit - for everything including my salvation - which was decided before the beginning of creation. (I hope.)

Here’s the thing, if at any point we are exhorted to make a choice, that means we’ve been given sufficient power to do so.

Else why would Jesus tell us to repent?

If everything is 100% God 0% man, what of one’s damnation? Is it 100% God and 0% man?

Salvation is 100% God AND 100% man.

 

[Cathoholic]

PSUCath . . .

I want to better understand how Catholics view the “perseverance of the saints” doctrine.

The “perseverance of the saints” doctrine is a tradition of men that teaches once you are an earthly saint, you will necessarily persevere into Heavenly glory (become a Heavenly Saint).

It denies mortal sin. When mortal sin is overtly and undeniably committed, the follower of this man-made doctrine will often call it . . . . “Backsliding”.

In this man-made invention there is a conflation of being born-again and being of the elect.

All people born again (baptized - they usually deny being born again is baptism too by the way) NECESSARILY REMAIN in Jesus and go to Heaven in their view.