Please explain to me why gay marriage is wrong

  • Thread starter Thread starter ZooGirl2002
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This thread and the plethora of other threads regarding homosexuality bear witness to the destructive nature of those who promote homosexuality via constant promotion and propaganda.

If homosexual practitioners truly were “content” with their lifestyle it wouldn’t matter to them what others thought of them. But the fact is those who embrace homosexuality feel the need to promote it and indoctrinate others using propaganda and misrepresenting what science and the Bible say on the matter.

This demonstrates a very clear insecurity that depends on fellowship and constant reinforcement of their lifestyle decision which reveals that homosexuality and peace of mind are at two ends of the spectrum.
 
What exactly do you base YOUR morality upon then? Yourself? :hmmm:
You know that the question of “where morals come from” has exercised philosophers, theologians and many others for millennia. Without getting into a drawn out philosophical discussion my moral beliefs have been shaped by early childhood influences, the golden rule, spiritual advisers, United Church of Christ, study of ethical, neurological, psychological and other disciplines, deontology and experience working in mental health. When faced with a moral dilemma I seek appropriate guidance.

I am sure you will find a lot to criticize, but keep in mind I never claimed that one’s moral beliefs are objective.
 
This thread and the plethora of other threads regarding homosexuality bear witness to the destructive nature of those who promote homosexuality via constant promotion and propaganda.

If homosexual practitioners truly were “content” with their lifestyle it wouldn’t matter to them what others thought of them. But the fact is those who embrace homosexuality feel the need to promote it and indoctrinate others using propaganda and misrepresenting what science and the Bible say on the matter.

This demonstrates a very clear insecurity that depends on fellowship and constant reinforcement of their lifestyle decision which reveals that homosexuality and peace of mind are at two ends of the spectrum.
👍
 
You assumption that I devalue life is disingenuous at best. You are grasping at straws.
There is no assumption. You demonstrate your disregard with your statements. Are your statements substantial, or are we to give them relativist value as well? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and give your words full value. Your words show a disregard for marriage’s unique role in the flourishing of human life.

Do you believe
  1. Human life is something special
  2. Only the union of a man and woman can bring it about
Since you don’t believe that the marriage of a man and woman is unique and worth protecting, you devalue the flourishing of human life.

Your words don’t require assumptions. They speak for themselves.
 
Really? Which human being do you know that came into being with the union of a man and a woman? Please be specific.
So? Who can argue that? What is your point?

Again what is your point?
The observation remains.
  1. Human beings exist
  2. The union of a man and woman (aka marriage) is required for human existence.
    Do your observations that some couples do not produce children refute this?
    No.
    And the obvious question remains, since human life is good, is the instrument of it’s creation also good? What do we do with things that are good? Do we dumb them down and lie about them?
    What do you say?
    Keep in mind that your posts so far do not argue for the flourishing of human life. They argue for the relativizing of humanity to popular whims “in 36 states!!!”. How can you pretend to advocate for the well being of human life, when you don’t?
I am glad we agree that marriage is not necessary for birth. Whether that is immoral or not depends on your moral beliefs. I happen to believe, as sociological studies have shown, that a child has a better chance when there is quality parenting.

Besides being off topic you jump to too many conclusions without thinking them through.
That gays marry is not detrimental to birth or human life. That a child born to a lesbian parent or a single mother or adopted by a gay couple is not detrimental to human life. That I do not share your belief system is not an objective reason to jump to erroneous and disingenuous conclusions about me. That I argue for particular civil rights has nothing to do with diminishing anyone else’s well being. That you find fault with moral beliefs is not my problem.
Since you don’t believe that the marriage of a man and woman is unique and worth protecting, you devalue the flourishing of human life.

Your words don’t require assumptions. They speak for themselves.
How does gay marriage devalue the flourishing of human life? By your reasoning you must believe because of gay marriage life will magically waste away.
 
You know that the question of “where morals come from” has exercised philosophers, theologians and many others for millennia. Without getting into a drawn out philosophical discussion my moral beliefs have been shaped by early childhood influences, the golden rule, spiritual advisers, United Church of Christ, study of ethical, neurological, psychological and other disciplines, deontology and experience working in mental health. When faced with a moral dilemma I seek appropriate guidance.

I am sure you will find a lot to criticize, but keep in mind I never claimed that one’s moral beliefs are objective.
Isn’t revealed nature instructive for moral decisions? You don’t need the UCC theology department to tell you what to believe, do you?

Is it right to help a struggling and starving human being lying in the street? When he reaches his hand out to you, must you consult your myriad theological sources to find the right belief? Or is it self evident that human life is valuable, and it is good to promote it’s flourishing?

Even toddlers have a built in sense of right and wrong. When other children cry they are moved to pity and to help.

Morality divorced from reality is not moral.
 
Isn’t revealed nature instructive for moral decisions? You don’t need the UCC theology department to tell you what to believe, do you?

Is it right to help a struggling and starving human being lying in the street? When he reaches his hand out to you, must you consult your myriad theological sources to find the right belief? Or is it self evident that human life is valuable, and it is good to promote it’s flourishing?

Even toddlers have a built in sense of right and wrong. When other children cry they are moved to pity and to help.

Morality divorced from reality is not moral.
Your response is incomprehensible as it has nothing to do with what I wrote.
 
You know that the question of “where morals come from” has exercised philosophers, theologians and many others for millennia. Without getting into a drawn out philosophical discussion my moral beliefs have been shaped by early childhood influences, the golden rule, spiritual advisers, United Church of Christ, study of ethical, neurological, psychological and other disciplines, deontology and experience working in mental health. When faced with a moral dilemma I seek appropriate guidance.

I am sure you will find a lot to criticize, but keep in mind I never claimed that one’s moral beliefs are objective.
Claiming moral beliefs are objective is a necessary first step, otherwise you are conceding that moral beliefs are groundless.

If that is your claim, then whether or not gay marriage is accepted should make no difference to you because there is no objective moral difference between a society with gay marriage and one without.

You had no reason to complain when gay marriages didn’t exist and no reason to complain when others advocate against them since YOU can offer no objective reasons either way, because for YOU the decision isn’t an objective one, merely the choice of the majority.

If some of us decide to use sound rational judgements to convince others that gay marriage is an objectively flawed moral entity, and objectively bad for society, you are relegated to silence since YOU claim it isn’t something to be objectively determined at all.

Perhaps more people will side with you because of social coercion but that, again, would not make gay marriage objectively good, merely a social convention and a bad one at that.

For my part, I will continue to think soundly and use good reasons to try to get through to “most people” on the issue, presuming that most people actually do appreciate sound moral reasoning rather than being badgered by loud and insisting voices that they had better “believe” or risk being called homophobes, bigots or worse. Perhaps made to lose their businesses or good name because they don’t “buy in.”

If that is your view on how the morality of a culture SHOULD be determined, you are welcome to it.

I, on the other hand, am not convinced the “gay marriage” crowd have a substantive or sound argument to make. Sure they are belligerent, aggressive and demean their opposition, but those were never, for me, good reasons to accept any moral principle or behaviour.

The more sound reasoning is pushed against that position, the more aggressive its proponents will become. They will show their true nature and motives. It is happening already and will continue to happen as more and better arguments are brought forth. The resort will be to silence their opposition by aggressive campaigns of slander and threat. Those, too, are happening. Why? Is the question to be asked.

Because the sound arguments are on the side of gay marriage proponents? No.

If they were, there would be no need for sanctions, name calling and aggressive campaigns. The proponents would merely make the arguments and let the soundness of those arguments speak for themselves. That is not happening, now is it?

Which side is shouting “Bigots!” “Homophobes!” “Prejudice!” so loudly hoping any listeners will miss the fact that no real rational arguments exist to back their position? They have merely made a claim that the opposing position is discriminatory without actually demonstrating how it is using indisputable logical reasoning.
 
Your response is incomprehensible as it has nothing to do with what I wrote.
Your reply is a non sequitur since how comprehensible Clem’s response is has nothing to do with its relationship to what you wrote.

It may have been irrelevant, but that does not make it incomprehensible.

This seems an ongoing issue with how you get from Point A to Point B in your reasoning.
 
to give frobert credit, left to our own druthers, we would have no moral compass. you see it all over the bible, and it’s why Jesus died for us. ‘If you love me, you will keep my commands’. atheistic morality is simply morality defined by government or majority, depending on the society you live in.
 
Jesus was placed on the cross for all our sins.
The Bible’s moral teachings are to help us live according to God’s will. They are not intended to be used to condemn other people. Jesus told us to eliminate the sins in our own lives rather than passing judgment or looking down on others. If we judge other people harshly, we will, in turn, be judged harshly:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-2)

There is no need to feel sorry for my soul. God and I have it well in hand, thank you.
 
we are not to judge them, but we are to listen to all of Jesus’ commands, and evangelize the truth, as defined by the church, not whitewash it so that souls will be lost. Jesus died for sinners, of which i am the worst, but he told me to repent and sin no more, not to continue living in my sin.
 
Exactly. We must uphold the Commandments. Nowhere does it say you cannot love another.
1.You shall have no other gods before Me.
2.You shall not make idols.
3.You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5.Honor your father and your mother.
6.You shall not murder.
7.You shall not commit adultery.
8.You shall not steal.
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10.You shall not covet.

This has been a learning experience, however, I must go now. Merry Christmas.
 
Your reply is a non sequitur since how comprehensible Clem’s response is has nothing to do with its relationship to what you wrote.

It may have been irrelevant, but that does not make it incomprehensible.

This seems an ongoing issue with how you get from Point A to Point B in your reasoning.
The relevance was to his continuing denial of self evident nature as informative to sound morality.
He has been insisting that belief is a relativistic and manufactured set of concepts divorced from objective reality.
 
Exactly. We must uphold the Commandments. Nowhere does it say you cannot love another.
1.You shall have no other gods before Me.
2.You shall not make idols.
3.You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5.Honor your father and your mother.
6.You shall not murder.
7.You shall not commit adultery.
8.You shall not steal.
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10.You shall not covet.

This has been a learning experience, however, I must go now. Merry Christmas.
thank you, and merry Christmas to you. may the God of all creation continue to bless you.👍
 
The relevance was to his continuing denial of self evident nature as informative to sound morality.
He has been insisting that belief is a relativistic and manufactured set of concepts divorced from objective reality.
Oh, I agree it was relevant. 👍

I was just making an observation that even IF he was correct that it had nothing to do with his post THAT would only make it irrelevant to his post, NOT incomprehensible.
 
Claiming moral beliefs are objective is a necessary first step, otherwise you are conceding that moral beliefs are groundless.

If that is your claim, then whether or not gay marriage is accepted should make no difference to you because there is no objective moral difference between a society with gay marriage and one without.

If some of us decide to use sound rational judgements to convince others that gay marriage is an objectively flawed moral entity, and objectively bad for society, you are relegated to silence since YOU claim it isn’t something to be objectively determined at all.

For my part, I will continue to think soundly and use good reasons to try to get through to “most people” on the issue, presuming that most people actually do appreciate sound moral reasoning rather than being badgered by loud and insisting voices that they had better “believe” or risk being called homophobes, bigots or worse. Perhaps made to lose their businesses or good name because they don’t “buy in.”

If that is your view on how the morality of a culture SHOULD be determined, you are welcome to it.

I, on the other hand, am not convinced the “gay marriage” crowd have a substantive or sound argument to make. Sure they are belligerent, aggressive and demean their opposition, but those were never, for me, good reasons to accept any moral principle or behavior.

The more sound reasoning is pushed against that position, the more aggressive its proponents will become. They will show their true nature and motives. It is happening already and will continue to happen as more and better arguments are brought forth. The resort will be to silence their opposition by aggressive campaigns of slander and threat. Those, too, are happening. Why? Is the question to be asked.

Because the sound arguments are on the side of gay marriage proponents? No.

If they were, there would be no need for sanctions, name calling and aggressive campaigns. The proponents would merely make the arguments and let the soundness of those arguments speak for themselves. That is not happening, now is it?

Which side is shouting “Bigots!” “Homophobes!” “Prejudice!” so loudly hoping any listeners will miss the fact that no real rational arguments exist to back their position? They have merely made a claim that the opposing position is discriminatory without actually demonstrating how it is using indisputable logical reasoning.
In the run-up to today, back when this was on the ballot, and same-sex marriage did not get voter approval in some state, the refrain was: “We didn’t spend enough money.” This intensive marketing campaign was based on a militant to very militant approach. Can anyone here actually determine who is gay and who isn’t in a shopping mall? Then, more recently, I saw a photo of a young lady trying to sell the idea to an average person. That was part of a door to door campaign, which is not a trivial undertaking. Look at politics. Who has the biggest “war chest”? Who can dig up the dirt on his or her opponent and start slinging mud but in a way that may or may not have been the real, complete picture of their opponent?

And let’s not forget, once gay marriage is legalized by judicial fiat in your state (yes, I know a few states were confused by the marketing campaign and actually voted for it), kids in public schools automatically get a gay marriage promotion story book. From who? Why? And it’s not “a parental notification issue.”

abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1230620

But just like any political campaign, the goals included “getting the approval numbers up,” finding a message and “staying on message.” Even if that message wasn’t the actual reality once it was legal in your state.

Never mind that one man, one woman marriage is the basic building block of society. Never mind that the complementary of a married couple goes beyond the sexual or the benefits. Marriage, in order to work, is work. Gay marriage is a social experiment that is not based on reality. Long before there was gay marriage there were gay couples living together and doing what they wanted, in private. The strategy then became ‘abandon your privacy.’ Get out there, wear women’s clothing or parts thereof and show people how proud you are of being gay. Being gay confers no automatic benefit to anyone, yet I’ve seen articles where gay couples were considering leaving their anti-gay state to move to a gay friendly state. The article went on to say that this should worry the reader because a “brain drain” would occur. Really? And your evidence is two guys in a photo?

“Engineering consent” is an actual strategy. I mean, why do I need to hear or see Coke or Pepsi commercials all the time? Because a lot of money is spent to convince you that one is better than the other. In this current “social experiment,” the strategy played out as “first, we’ll try the general public.” When that didn’t work they went to politicians and judges and even owners of large companies and lobbied for their support. And approval. How the President’s view on this subject “evolved” is no mystery. He was being continuously pressured, not by reality, but by a marketing campaign where LGBT voters were upset with him, until he “evolved” and accepted the marketing message. Which then garnered him lots of approval.

Reason has given way to a type of class warfare. And marketing, constant marketing. Marriage equality meant a one to one relationship needs to exist between gay and straight married couples. The reality is resolved by simple math:

Two Men or Two Women does not equal One Man and One woman.

But when all are accused without cause or evidence of [insert emotional name calling here], that is not just unreasonable. It is wrong. To paint gay marriage opponents with blanket slurs is like convicting groups of people without full knowledge of who is or is not “the enemy.”

Ed
 
Claiming moral beliefs are objective is a necessary first step, otherwise you are conceding that moral beliefs are groundless.

If that is your claim, then whether or not gay marriage is accepted should make no difference to you because there is no objective moral difference between a society with gay marriage and one without.

You had no reason to complain when gay marriages didn’t exist and no reason to complain when others advocate against them since YOU can offer no objective reasons either way, because for YOU the decision isn’t an objective one, merely the choice of the majority.

If some of us decide to use sound rational judgements to convince others that gay marriage is an objectively flawed moral entity, and objectively bad for society, you are relegated to silence since YOU claim it isn’t something to be objectively determined at all.

Perhaps more people will side with you because of social coercion but that, again, would not make gay marriage objectively good, merely a social convention and a bad one at that.

For my part, I will continue to think soundly and use good reasons to try to get through to “most people” on the issue, presuming that most people actually do appreciate sound moral reasoning rather than being badgered by loud and insisting voices that they had better “believe” or risk being called homophobes, bigots or worse. Perhaps made to lose their businesses or good name because they don’t “buy in.”

If that is your view on how the morality of a culture SHOULD be determined, you are welcome to it.

I, on the other hand, am not convinced the “gay marriage” crowd have a substantive or sound argument to make. Sure they are belligerent, aggressive and demean their opposition, but those were never, for me, good reasons to accept any moral principle or behaviour.

The more sound reasoning is pushed against that position, the more aggressive its proponents will become. They will show their true nature and motives. It is happening already and will continue to happen as more and better arguments are brought forth. The resort will be to silence their opposition by aggressive campaigns of slander and threat. Those, too, are happening. Why? Is the question to be asked.

Because the sound arguments are on the side of gay marriage proponents? No.

If they were, there would be no need for sanctions, name calling and aggressive campaigns. The proponents would merely make the arguments and let the soundness of those arguments speak for themselves. That is not happening, now is it?

Which side is shouting “Bigots!” “Homophobes!” “Prejudice!” so loudly hoping any listeners will miss the fact that no real rational arguments exist to back their position? They have merely made a claim that the opposing position is discriminatory without actually demonstrating how it is using indisputable logical reasoning.
As I said "You know that the question of “where morals come from” has exercised philosophers, theologians and many others for millennia. Without getting into a drawn out philosophical discussion

BTW you should get out and meet some regular gay couples you may find they are not much different than regular straight couples. In my own circle of friends of about 30 couples (3 gay couples) we are all highly supportive of each other.

As for Clems question it was incomprehensible to me because I had no idea of what he was talking about but I agree his comment was a irrelevant.
 
Thank you for answering the question. You start with the premise that there are no valid moral beliefs other than your own, yet you are unable to provide one objective reason why this is so.

Legal morality is not my morality so I have no need to defend it just as I have no need to defend various religious moralities but that doesn’t stop me from understanding them.
What Plato said, there are absolute moral truths and those depend on God, so anyone who thinks differently about those moral truths are wrong.
 
We know where morals come from. Those who create their own idea of what is moral or good are not looking at the issue properly. Gay marriage may make some people feel good, but not all gay couples who have access to it are getting married. And the ongoing attempts to gain approval here and elsewhere is just more marketing. It is not reality. “Social invention” is the end result.

Ed
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top