Please explain to me why gay marriage is wrong

[frobert]

You still didn’t answer my question what is the dividing line, what makes incest wrong but homosexual acts okay.

Do you realize that incest and homosexual acts are two entirely different things? Do you believe it is contradictory, inconsistent, or morally corrupt to hold different moral beliefs about different things?

Irresponsible homosexual acts like irresponsible heterosexual acts are morally wrong. Contrary to what you may believe or have been told the majority of gay men and women do not indulge in irresponsible sexual acts.

Why do I believe that incest is immoral? I believe incest is immoral because it is overwhelmingly harmful to the participants and their families.

 

[cena]

I know.
Part of having good moral sense is making objective comparisons between different things.

A gay person would rightly want to make a distinction between homosexuality and incest. Perfectly understandable.
To be consistent with this point of view, the distinction between marriage and gay union must also be recognized.

They are arguing there are no consequences from it so why not?

We can make it so that other immoral behaviors don’t have consequences but they remain immoral.

Same sex “marriage” is wrong because homosexual acts are wrong. They argued since there are no consequences that it isn’t.

I brought up incest as a point because we would agree that even if there are no consequences incest is still wrong.

If we are wrong about the morality of homosexual actions what keeps us from being wrong about incest? What is the dividing line? What makes something immoral?

People used to marry their cousins, in Egypt the royal siblings would marry, does this make incest okay?
If it doesn’t why is saying “homosexual actions have been around just as long as heterosexual actions, other cultures accepted, etc.” validate homosexual actions as a good thing?

 

[frobert]

I know.
Part of having good moral sense is making objective comparisons between different things.

Two Questions:

1. 
   *]How does one develop a good moral sense?
   *]Being morally objective how do you compare homosexuality and incest?

 

[clem456]

Do you realize that incest and homosexual acts are two entirely different things? Do you believe it is contradictory, inconsistent, or morally corrupt to hold different moral beliefs about different things?

Yes, they are different things.
You know what the next question is…
How do you answer it?

 

[clem456]

Two Questions:

1. 
   *]How does one develop a good moral sense?
   *]Being morally objective how do you compare homosexuality and incest?

1. 
   The practice of good will with good informed conscience. Big topic…
   
   Homosexuality is a same sex sexual relationship.
   Incest is a sexual relationship between close relatives.
   Two different things, although they may share elements, just as heterosexuality and incest may also.
   
   Big

 

[frobert]

Yes, they are different things.
You know what the next question is…
How do you answer it?

Nice try. Can’t answer it can you?

 

[frobert]

The practice of good will with good informed conscience. Big topic…

Homosexuality is a same sex sexual relationship.
Incest is a sexual relationship between close relatives.
Two different things, although they may share elements, just as heterosexuality and incest may also.

Big

You did not explain how you arrived at the moral equivalence between the two. Your reasoning appears to be circular.

 

[cena]

Do you realize that incest and homosexual acts are two entirely different things? Do you believe it is contradictory, inconsistent, or morally corrupt to hold different moral beliefs about different things?

Irresponsible homosexual acts like irresponsible heterosexual acts are morally wrong. Contrary to what you may believe or have been told the majority of gay men and women do not indulge in irresponsible sexual acts.

Why do I believe that incest is immoral? I believe incest is immoral because it is overwhelmingly harmful to the participants and their families.

I am not justifying incest, I am using it as an example. The consequences don’t determine the morality of something, the actual action does. People are justifying homosexual actions because there are apparently no consequences. I have used a lot of other immoral examples, no matter what it is someone tries to justify it. The only exceptions are pedophiles and beastiality because children and animals can’t give consent.

I think incest is awful and immoral. The only reason I used it is because it’s one of the only immoral sexual things that people won’t try to justify. I was not trying to say it is okay.

It does not matter if one is straight, gay, etc. immoral acts are immoral. Temptations are not sins. If the attractions are there without the person’s consent they are not sins, and the person has no guilt.

 

[cena]

Do you realize that incest and homosexual acts are two entirely different things? Do you believe it is contradictory, inconsistent, or morally corrupt to hold different moral beliefs about different things?

Irresponsible homosexual acts like irresponsible heterosexual acts are morally wrong. Contrary to what you may believe or have been told the majority of gay men and women do not indulge in irresponsible sexual acts.

Why do I believe that incest is immoral? I believe incest is immoral because it is overwhelmingly harmful to the participants and their families.

Do you realize polygamy and homosexual relationships are two completely different things?
Yet people try to justify both of them?

Yes, I think it is inconsistent to think homosexual actions are okay but not other immoral actions.

I believe that incest is immoral because it a perverted violation of the roles of the two family members. The consequences coming from it come from the error of their action.

 

[randirhoades]

I can agree that Noah, Jonah and Lot and Sodom are all STORIES, I don’t believe they literally happened.

Marriage means different things to different people. Some marry for love, some marry for money, power, citizenship, benefits, you name it. But that fact that remains is that these people can marry, just as any 2 consenting adults should be able to marry.

Thus, in my personal opinion, and thankfully millions of millions like me, gay marriage is not wrong and will soon be legal in all 50 states.

And for all the haters out there: If you don’t like gay marriage, or think it’s wrong, don’t marry a gay person. Thank you very much.

peace and love to all.

Oh dear, so you’re calling God a hater? He’s the one that made the law. In the books of Genesis and Leviticus, God states for a man to not lie with a man like a woman and vice versa. (Paraphrasing) Yet, I never did think there was anything wrong with being homosexual as long as you didn’t practice homosexuality. Same sex loving/marriage.

Plus, God knew this was going to happen. Thus the law. And if God made that law, I’m not going to question it.

Peace and love to you too.

 

[clem456]

You did not explain how you arrived at the moral equivalence between the two. Your reasoning appears to be circular.

What are you talking about? What moral equivalence? Be specific please.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So anyway, I know that there are a lot of religious reasons for being opposed to same sex marriage but I live in the United States and laws cannot be based on religion here because of the separation of church and state. I am all for separation of church and state. I think it would be incredibly stupid to start creating laws based on religious teachings. So, if you will defend the teaching of the Catholic Church that same sex marriage is wrong and should be illegal then please try to rely on arguments that are not exclusively religious in nature because those don’t hold much sway with me.

Natural law morality holds sway with me. The whole world, since the dawn of the human race, has never seen marriages based on the sexual principal of sodomy of oral or anal sodomy, which is the only kind of sex there can be between members of the same sex.

Perversion should not have to be recognized as a right. We don’t need to hate perverts because they are sick, but we also don’t have to honor them and dignify their perversions as natural norms of behavior, which is exactly what they want. When incest becomes honorable and incestuous partners start to demand their rights at the altar as a result of same sex marriage legislation, you will see the total collapse of the institution of marriage in the Western World.

You will probably also see the collapse of the Western World as we have known it.

As if we have not already seen plenty of other signs of the Western collapse.

 

[frobert]

What are you talking about? What moral equivalence? Be specific please.

The practice of good will with good informed conscience. Big topic…

Homosexuality is a same sex sexual relationship.
Incest is a sexual relationship between close relatives.
Two different things, although they may share elements, just as heterosexuality and incest may also.

Big

You are saying that they share elements. What elements? Religious? Moral? Legal?

I agree that some people find both homosexual acts and incest immoral based on religious beliefs which shapes conscience but that is not objective. Believing that something is immoral because of religious beliefs is a valid reason but is not an objective reason.

 

[Peter_Plato]

You are saying that they share elements. What elements? Religious? Moral? Legal?

I agree that some people find both homosexual acts and incest immoral based on religious beliefs which shapes conscience but that is not objective. Believing that something is immoral because of religious beliefs is a valid reason but is not an objective reason.

Huh?

You must have a very idiosyncratic definition of “objective,” then.

Would you care to define what objective means before you undermine anything else you have to say?

 

[clem456]

You are saying that they share elements. What elements? Religious? Moral? Legal?

Objective similarities, objective differences. Important to observe these things.
Sex acts.
Incest may have a same sex component or a hetero component.
That’s all. No moral equivocating.

I agree that some people find both homosexual acts and incest immoral based on religious beliefs which shapes conscience but that is not objective. Believing that something is immoral because of religious beliefs is a valid reason but is not an objective reason.

Christian belief is informed by revealed truth. Some of revealed truth comes to light through the inspired work of theologians. But other revealed truth is self evident in nature.

Is it objectively true that human beings exist? Look at your arms and legs and listen to your heart beat.
Is it objectively true that it requires a man and a woman to help create a human being?
Do you and I need the services of a theologian and an eloquently worded statement of religious beliefs to answer these questions?

You didn’t answer this question before maybe I could ask it again.

It seems you accept that there are real differences between incest and homosexuality. And who can deny that? Let’s accept that there are real differences.
So then you must also accept that there are real differences between homosexuality and marriage?

 

[frobert]

Objective similarities, objective differences. Important to observe these things.
Sex acts.
Incest may have a same sex component or a hetero component.
That’s all. No moral equivocating.

I didn’t realize that we were talking about same sex incest. Yet another difference from other homosexual acts. Again not objective but circular reasoning

Christian belief is informed by revealed truth. Some of revealed truth comes to light through the inspired work of theologians. But other revealed truth is self evident in nature.

It is revealed according to your religious beliefs. Again circular reasoning.

Is it objectively true that human beings exist? Look at your arms and legs and listen to your heart beat.
Is it objectively true that it requires a man and a woman to help create a human being?
Do you and I need the services of a theologian and an eloquently worded statement of religious beliefs to answer these questions?

You agree it is a religious belief. And yes you need a theologian to make the case but even so the only case he/she can make will be based on a religious belief.

You didn’t answer this question before maybe I could ask it again.

It seems you accept that there are real differences between incest and homosexuality. And who can deny that? Let’s accept that there are real differences.
So then you must also accept that there are real differences between homosexuality and marriage?

I didn’t know that you were asking me that question. Yes there are real differences: homosexuality is an orientation, and civil marriage is a state right. At present 36 states and DC define marriage as between two adults that are legally able to marry.

Marriage as defined by the Catholic church is a valid belief but not everyone shares that belief.

I ask you are beliefs moral reasoning not in accordance with Catholic doctrine valid beliefs? If not what are your objective reasons?

 

[clem456]

I didn’t realize that we were talking about same sex incest. Yet another difference from other homosexual acts. Again not objective but circular reasoning

It is revealed according to your religious beliefs. Again circular reasoning.

I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Please be specific. Show me the circle.
I am just observing -outside of morality-, for the sake of discussion, that there are differences between incest and homosexuality. What specifically are you not understanding? I am not making moral comparisons between the two, just observing what’s there.

You agree it is a religious belief. And yes you need a theologian to make the case but even so the only case he/she can make will be based on a religious belief.

Again I have no idea what you are trying to say. Please be specific.

I didn’t know that you were asking me that question. Yes there are real differences: homosexuality is an orientation, and civil marriage is a state right. At present 36 states and DC define marriage as between two adults that are legally able to marry.

Marriage as defined by the Catholic church is a valid belief but not everyone shares that belief.

I ask you are beliefs moral reasoning not in accordance with Catholic doctrine valid beliefs? If not what are your objective reasons?

You’re simply avoiding the question. That’s disingenuous and serves no good.
Your assertion that marriage is a belief peculiar to the Catholic Church is laughable, as if marriage is something invented by a theologian.

How did you come to be?
Can you at least answer that simple question in a direct way.

 

[clem456]

I just wanted to check with you to make sure I am reading this exchange correctly.
When I said this:

clem456
Is it objectively true that human beings exist? Look at your arms and legs and listen to your heart beat.
Is it objectively true that it requires a man and a woman to help create a human being?
Do you and I need the services of a theologian and an eloquently worded statement of religious beliefs to answer these questions?

You replied this:

Frobert
You agree it is a religious belief. And yes you need a theologian to make the case but even so the only case he/she can make will be based on a religious belief.

You believe your own existence born of a man and woman is a religious belief and is not simply revealed in nature? This requires a theologian?
Am I misreading this?

 

[frobert]

I just wanted to check with you to make sure I am reading this exchange correctly.
When I said this:

You replied this:

You believe your own existence born of a man and woman is a religious belief and is not simply revealed in nature? This requires a theologian?
Am I misreading this?

Of course being born is not just a religious belief. Now what does being born have to do with the rightness or wrongness homosexuality and gay marriage? Stay on topic, be objective.

If you can not accept the validity of beliefs other than your own, and that your arguments against gay marriage are based on your beliefs then there is little left to discuss. I leave you the objective reality that gay civil marriage exists in 36 states and DC and many other countries.

 

[cena]

Of course being born is not just a religious belief. Now what does being born have to do with the rightness or wrongness homosexuality and gay marriage? Stay on topic, be objective.

If you can not accept the validity of beliefs other than your own, and that your arguments against gay marriage are based on your beliefs then there is little left to discuss. I leave you the objective reality that gay civil marriage exists in 36 states and DC and many other countries.

Whether something is legal does not determine the morality of something. Slavery used to legal in the U.S.