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frobert
Guest
I don’t doubt that you believe in right reason so do I. Now tell me how you conclude that your reasoning is right and my reasoning with virtue ethics is wrong?
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edwest2
Guest
I suspect your reasoning is based somewhat on promoted opinion. Biologically, two men or two women are not physically compatible. And that other thing I mentioned:
amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370
Best,
Ed
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tomberg
Guest
These are just a few of the Heretics. Not even the Pope will deny these took place. Give me a break.
Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians…viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians…viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
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tomberg
Guest
Wonderful you keep posting a single book. I can also post books on amazon that vigorously say that your position is wrong. Your posting of this book adds zero to this debate. Stop advertising for this book.
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cena
Guest
That’s what one pope/few people decided, not Church teaching.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism
"“Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex.” That sounds moral
I fail to see why you accept St. Paul’s view’s that circumcision is unnecessary now, things like idolatry, adultery, etc. are still immoral but you refuse to accept that he said homosexual actions could keep one out of heaven
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tomberg
Guest
Alright we seem to be arguing in circles here. For the final time. The Church can define morality however it wants, St. Paul can define morality however he wants, you can define morality by whatever means you see fit. We are just arguing that just because the Church teaches something, does not automatically confer it to be moral or immoral. Their are plenty of other standards of morality. Fine if the Church teaches that it can keep you out of heaven, that is perfectly fine with me, and that will be between Jesus and homosexuals when they die. What we are arguing is whether it is appropriate for CIVIL GOVERNMENT’s to make and enforce laws based upon what one RELIGION or even several religions teach in regards to morality. Going to go watch a movie now. Talk to you soon.
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PRmerger
Guest
I will retract my statement that what you have said is gaga lala nonsense if you provide a source.
Again, please offer a source, from a magisterial document, that limns the position that the Catholic Church was opposed to freedom of religion, freedom of speech and representative democracy.
Thanks.
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cena
Guest
When you say birth control do you mean artificial? That’s immoral. There are natural ways to do that that are morally neutral and they would still be responsible.
The Church and the state used to be one. They had the civil authority to exercise the death penalty in a way they don’t today.
newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_XIII
"Opponents say: Precisely; the rigours of the Inquisition violated all humane feelings. We answer: they offend the feelings of later ages in which there is less regard for the purity of faith; but they did not antagonize the feelings of their own time, when heresy was looked on as more malignant than treason. In proof of which it suffices to remark that the inquisitors only renounced on the guilt of the accused and then handed him over to the secular power to be dealt with according to the laws framed by emperors and kings.
And whenever heretics gained the upper hand, they were never slow in applying the same laws: so the Huguenots in France, the Hussites in Bohemia, the Calvinists in Geneva, the Elizabethan statesmen and the Puritans in England. Toleration came in only when faith went out; lenient measures were resorted to only where the power to apply more severe measures was wanting. The embers of the Kulturkampf in Germany still smoulder; the separation and confiscation laws and the ostracism of Catholics in France are the scandal of the day."
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Thorolfr
Guest
But elsewhere your said, “Those heretics were obstinate after being corrected, they were spreading their error and leading people away from the truth, what they got was the death penalty, which isn’t considered murder.”
So now you’re saying that those 20,000 Cathars who were declared heretics shouldn’t have gotten the “death penalty” because “that’s what one pope/few people decided, not Church teaching”?
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cena
Guest
The Church and the state used to be one so heresy was probably something under the death penalty. Back then heresy was seen worse than treason(also under the death penalty).
I don’t know much about it, but it sounds like that pope just said kill everyone and God will save the non heretics. That’s different than if the pope had the civil authority to exercise the death penalty for heresy and the Cathars were all heretics.
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Thorolfr
Guest
This almost makes it sound as if toleration and lenient measures against opponents are bad things.
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Thorolfr
Guest
It actually says that in this case both spiritual and civil/militarily authority were being exercised by the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux. So you think that it is OK for heretics to be executed for their beliefs? Would it still be OK now for the Catholic Church to execute heretics, in your opinion?
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tomberg
Guest
That is exactly what that is saying. Also don’t bother arguing these points anymore. Some posters on here absolutely refuse to recognize that the Catholic Church could ever, possibly have acted incorrectly or immorally. They are even more Catholic than the Pope himself who has actually admitted wrongdoing in the Crusades and the Inquisition. Freaking Liberal Popes.
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tomberg
Guest
Gregory XVI, Encyclical (August 15, 1832):
And from this stinking fountainhead of indifferentism flows that absurd and erroneous opinion or rather nonsense, that liberty of conscience must be claimed and demanded for anyone whatever.6
Pius IX, (December 8, 1864): (The following are condemned propositions.)
“In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.” (No. 77)
“Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.” (No. 18).
“The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.” (No. 55)
“Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.” (No. 15) and that “It has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.” (No. 78)
“The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with, progress, liberalism and modern civilization.” (No. 80)
no. 78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.
no. 79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.7
Sounds pretty oppositional to me. And that is a relatively recent document.
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tomberg
Guest
Sorry i am also not buying into John Henry Newman silly apologetic about what this document represents. That was nothing more than ducking for cover after the firestorm of criticism that enveloped the Western World after the publication of this nonsense.
My favorite:
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Not exactly a model for religious tolerance and freedom of opinion.
My favorite:
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Not exactly a model for religious tolerance and freedom of opinion.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
There is no way of knowing if 200 or 20,000 Cathars got the death penalty. The overall majority of Cathars committed suicide. Cathars believed that sexual intercourse should be avoided and suicide or the Endura, was not only lawful but commendable.
Just the kind of folks you would want in your neighborhood or teaching in your schools.
No wonder the King of France and his noblemen wanted to wipe them out. After a trial, all the Cathar’s land and property seemed to fall into the hands of the noblemen. (?)
This was typical of the Inquisition. The Church is blamed for atrocities committed in Her name by greedy monarchs and noblemen.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Well, no, Frobert, I am perfectly willing to accept that there are valid moral belief systems other than my own. That is exactly the reason I am asking you to explicate your system so I get the opportunity to assess whether it is indeed a valid and coherent one or not.
The way I see it, you are claiming religious views do not have the only claim to grounding legitimate moral systems. I accept that. Now go ahead and provide an account for what those non-religious moral systems could be grounded upon. This is precisely what further discussion REQUIRES.
The only way you could consistently say further discussion makes no sense would be because you have no possible non-religious grounds for moral systems to offer or that it makes no sense to offer them. If that is so then it makes no sense for you to claim that there are compelling non-religious grounds for moral beliefs.
So if you seriously want to contend that religions are NOT the only grounds for morality, then it is up to you to provide those grounds. Otherwise, your claim is an empty one.
This move to “further discussion makes no sense” appears to be a polite way of admitting you have NO non-religious grounds for morality to offer. If you don’t, that would be fine with me, but don’t, then, continue to insist that your claim that religions don’t provide the only grounds for morality has any legitimacy.
If you want to make a claim, then be willing to defend it. Choosing unilaterally to end discussion when the burden is yours to make your case is a cop out. Full stop.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
In order to contradict the Catholic faith…you should know a little bit about it.
First and foremost is that the “Syllabus of Errors” itself was not a magisterial document.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) referred to the Vatican II Constitution Gaudium et Spes as a “counter-syllabus-of-errors”.
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Thorolfr
Guest
If you will read back to post 677, you will see that this atrocity was committed by an army under the command, both spiritually and militarily, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux who then sent a message to Pope Innocent III which said, “Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex.” This cannot be blamed merely on greedy monarchs and noblemen.
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