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Cr8ton
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I am very curious about TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints) and where and why this conflicts with Catholic doctrine. 
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E.E.N.S
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Originally posted by Catholic Dude:
Total Depravity:
The Catholic Church has a radically different understanding of Original Sin than Calvinists, their position leads to a corrupt human nature, the Catholic position leads to a plain human nature (uncorrupted) which has been stripped of sanctifying grace.
Both agree in the ātotal inabilityā of man to save himself, but total depravity is more than that and incompatible with Catholicism.
Unconditional Election:
More or less in agreement. Though Catholics would add that God does not predestine to hell, while Calvinists would generally say He does.
Limited Atonement:
Catholics totally disagree with the Calvinist understanding of the atonement, and thus limited atonement is incompatible with Catholicism.
Irresistible Grace:
This is similar to the Catholic notion of āefficacious grace,ā though the Church (and Scripture) teach grace can be resisted at times, also when comparing each theology as a whole the Catholic position is still significantly different from the Calvinist view.
Perseverance of the Saints:
This terminology was stolen from people like St. Augustine and applied to the Calvinist position. The Catholic Church teaches Perseverance of the Saints as the Scriptures and Doctors of the Church taught it. Calvinist cannot technically believe in the concept of āperseveringā because they believe in eternal security where the concept of falling does not exist. It would be as if a man was standing on solid ground at sea level and was told to āpersevereā by not falling off a cliff. There is no cliff, he is on flat ground, the concept of perseverance doesnāt exist.
The Catholic (Biblical) view of perseverance is that salvation can be lost and you must avoid falling to be saved in the end. Further, even if someone does fall, they can still persevere by repenting before death.
Total Depravity:
The Catholic Church has a radically different understanding of Original Sin than Calvinists, their position leads to a corrupt human nature, the Catholic position leads to a plain human nature (uncorrupted) which has been stripped of sanctifying grace.
Both agree in the ātotal inabilityā of man to save himself, but total depravity is more than that and incompatible with Catholicism.
Unconditional Election:
More or less in agreement. Though Catholics would add that God does not predestine to hell, while Calvinists would generally say He does.
Limited Atonement:
Catholics totally disagree with the Calvinist understanding of the atonement, and thus limited atonement is incompatible with Catholicism.
Irresistible Grace:
This is similar to the Catholic notion of āefficacious grace,ā though the Church (and Scripture) teach grace can be resisted at times, also when comparing each theology as a whole the Catholic position is still significantly different from the Calvinist view.
Perseverance of the Saints:
This terminology was stolen from people like St. Augustine and applied to the Calvinist position. The Catholic Church teaches Perseverance of the Saints as the Scriptures and Doctors of the Church taught it. Calvinist cannot technically believe in the concept of āperseveringā because they believe in eternal security where the concept of falling does not exist. It would be as if a man was standing on solid ground at sea level and was told to āpersevereā by not falling off a cliff. There is no cliff, he is on flat ground, the concept of perseverance doesnāt exist.
The Catholic (Biblical) view of perseverance is that salvation can be lost and you must avoid falling to be saved in the end. Further, even if someone does fall, they can still persevere by repenting before death.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Thanks for starting this thread. This topic is important which deserves time. Therefore, my will post take some time, so please be patient with me on this particular thread. I hope other Calvinists on Catholic Answers would participate too.I am very curious about TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints) and where and why this conflicts with Catholic doctrine.
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2nd_Adam
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Cr8ton
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I agree, I look forward to this journey. This particular thread is very important to me as well and deserves my attention and willingness to search the scriptures and learn. Iām excited and hope to see as much Catholic scriptural basis for beliefs as well as TULIP support. May God bless everyone who participates and may God lead us into all truth by His Holy Spirit! Amen!
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E.E.N.S
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Honestly, coming from a Calvinist background before my conversion to Catholicism, I think the best argument against Calvinism is the Church, or more specifically the authority of the Catholic Church. But I guess that is a thread in and of itself.
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Drawmack
Guest
While I appreciate the time and thought youāve put into this post I would also like to comment that a catholic speaking authoritatively (i.e. without references) on Protestant doctrine is no less unacceptable than a Protestant speaking this way on Catholic doctrine.
I would also like to point out that there are strong a weak Calvanists. Weak Calvanists are much more prevalent than strong Calvanists with the major difference being the doctrine of unconditional election and possibly the perseverance of saints (i.e. OSAS).
Now Iām off to do a bit of research so I can actually add something to this thread which doesnāt look like me trying to start an argument.
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E.E.N.S
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It took me 15 seconds, as all I did was copy it from Catholic Dudeās post in a similar thread a while back.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Apologist Jimmy Akin wrote this article: A Tiptoe Through TULIP.
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E.E.N.S
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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP
by James Akin
PREDESTINATION means many things to many people. All Christian churches believe in some form of predestination, because the Bible uses the term, [See Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:5, 11. For the Catholic Churchās teaching on predestination see Ludwig Ott, *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 242-244, and William G. Most, Catholic Apologetics Today, 114-122], but what predestination is and how it works are in dispute.
In Protestant circles there are two major camps when it comes to predestination: Calvinism and Arminianism. [Calvinists are followers of John Calvin (1509-1564). Arminians are followers of Jacob Arminius (1560-1609), not people from the Republic of Armenia]. Calvinism is common in Presbyterian, Reformed, and a few Baptist churches. Arminianism is common in Methodist, Pentecostal, and most Baptist churches. In Catholic circles, the two major groups discussing predestination are the Thomists and the Molinists, the followers of Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) and Luis de Molina (1536-1600). Thomists emphasize the role of grace, while Molinists emphasize free will. Neither school ignores grace or free will].
Even though Calvinists are a minority among Protestants today, their view hasā¦]
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
(While Jimmy Akinās Tip-Toe through TULIP is handy, it misses some critical distinctions between Calvinism and Catholicism. It is handy for showing how far a Catholic can go towards those concepts and still be within the parameters of orthodoxy, it does not mean all Catholics have to embrace those views.)
by James Akin
PREDESTINATION means many things to many people. All Christian churches believe in some form of predestination, because the Bible uses the term, [See Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:5, 11. For the Catholic Churchās teaching on predestination see Ludwig Ott, *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 242-244, and William G. Most, Catholic Apologetics Today, 114-122], but what predestination is and how it works are in dispute.
In Protestant circles there are two major camps when it comes to predestination: Calvinism and Arminianism. [Calvinists are followers of John Calvin (1509-1564). Arminians are followers of Jacob Arminius (1560-1609), not people from the Republic of Armenia]. Calvinism is common in Presbyterian, Reformed, and a few Baptist churches. Arminianism is common in Methodist, Pentecostal, and most Baptist churches. In Catholic circles, the two major groups discussing predestination are the Thomists and the Molinists, the followers of Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) and Luis de Molina (1536-1600). Thomists emphasize the role of grace, while Molinists emphasize free will. Neither school ignores grace or free will].
Even though Calvinists are a minority among Protestants today, their view hasā¦]
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
(While Jimmy Akinās Tip-Toe through TULIP is handy, it misses some critical distinctions between Calvinism and Catholicism. It is handy for showing how far a Catholic can go towards those concepts and still be within the parameters of orthodoxy, it does not mean all Catholics have to embrace those views.)
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E.E.N.S
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Beat me to it.
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E.E.N.S
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CathApol made a good response to Akinās A Tip-Toe through TULIP here: (which shows a more Thomistic approach)
cathapol.blogspot.com/2009/01/akins-tiptoe-through-tulip-response.html
cathapol.blogspot.com/2009/01/akins-tiptoe-through-tulip-response.html
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Drawmack
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For a brief explanation of TULIP this is a good page: reformed.org/calvinism/index.html
I would also like to note that TULIP was a response to the Arminians in Holland. This just puts a little historical perspective on the teachings.
I would also like to note that TULIP was a response to the Arminians in Holland. This just puts a little historical perspective on the teachings.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Iām not sure this should be a battle of the Internet links.
If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, āWhat have you that you did not receive?ā (1 Cor. 4:7), and, āBut by the grace of God I am what I amā (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, āFor apart from me you can do nothingā (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, āNot that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from Godā (2 Cor. 3:5).
Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)
monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/
Letās go through the issues slowly and gracefully. Calvinism is not about TULIP (5 points). TULIP is part of a systematic theology which is about glorifying God and enjoying Him forever, and about His sovereignity. Like all systematic theologies, Calvinism falls short of understanding an Infinite God. However, it is my opnionā¦ Calvinism is the most biblical view in which Godās glory is first and foremost. It is a theology that is God-centered and the strenght of Calvinism is the Scriptures (all of Scripture). The Catholic Church has a systematic theology too which is not based on Sacred Scripture alone. Can we agree that all Christians are saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever?
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E.E.N.S
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You stated that you wanted a thread on TULIP, but it looks like you are opening up this thread to Church authority, sola scriptura and Calvinism, no?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Well, we are discussing our Triune God whoās ways are above our ways. His wisdom is so much above us, so we need to approach the topic with awe and worship of our Triune God. We all have our presuppositions and need to understand how we see things through the glasses we are seeing our God. What is your chief aim in life as a Catholic Christian? Please be patient and charitable with me, since this is my first attempt outside the non-Catholic Forum site. And we all know this particular topic will cause sparks to fly.
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E.E.N.S
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To answer your [off topic] question, a Catholicās āchief aimā in life would be to know, love and serve God and to be happy with him in the world to come.
2nd Adam, are you familiar with the term obfuscation?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Iām not familar with that word. Do you agree with the Westminster Catechism of:
WESTMINSTER LARGER CATECHISM
Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?
A. Manās chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever.
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Look it up, as you are quite good at it.
ā¦or rather:
obā fusā cate
sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gifā/ĖÉbhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngfÉĖskeÉŖt, ÉbĖfŹshttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngkeÉŖt/ sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation [ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA in a Sentenceobfuscation
See web results for obfuscation
See images of obfuscation
āverb (used with object), -catā ed, -catā ing.
- to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
- **to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information. **
- to darken.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I answered your question, now be Christ-like and answer my question. Hereās my question again.Look it up, as you are quite good at it.
ā¦or rather:
obā fusā cate
sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gifā/ĖÉbhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngfÉĖskeÉŖt, ÉbĖfŹshttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngkeÉŖt/ sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled Pronunciation [ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA Use obfuscation in a Sentence
See web results for obfuscation
See images of obfuscation
āverb (used with object), -catā ed, -catā ing.
- to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
- **to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information. **
- to darken.
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