please explain TULIP and then Catholic disagreements

[Thing]

And, you believe you are capable of doing something God expressly does not want to happen? Are you greater than God?

Adam did something he was not supposed to do, he could do it because he was created with free will. God would not have had to die if Adam had not failed the test. Unless you think God made Adam fail the test? Then God would be responsible for many, many people falling also and going to hell? You believe that?

 

[bookgirl32]

Adam did something he was not supposed to do, he could do it because he was created with free will. God would not have had to die if Adam had not failed the test. Unless you think God made Adam fail the test? Then God would be responsible for many, many people falling also and going to hell? You believe that?

Yes, I think so. Choseandcalled stated this:

Secondly, about the Fall; the most glorious thing about being Reformed is the knowledge that God meant for Adam to fall – it was His express will. It had to be, or the Elect, known before time, would not have been necessary. If there were some chance that Adam would not sin, then all might have been able to live in Eden. Out of that, God changed us from created people – made from dust and bone – into sons of God, joint heirs with Christ. We are brothers to the Only Begotten Son of the Father! All because of the fall and the Redemption that God planned from the beginning.

The wording strikes me funny. The Elect was necessary in order to make Jesus’ sacrifice legitimate. Instead of Jesus’s sacrifice being necessary to get us to Heaven.

What’s interesting to me is that it sounds familiar to something I heard a long time ago from a modern Jewish professor of mine. He was a “cantor” (not sure if that’s different than a rabbi). He said that modern Judaism (I think that’s the right term. Modern as opposed to Orthodox Judaism) did not believe in Hell. And that “the Fall” was actually meant by God to happen, as it made Adam and Eve (and the rest of the human race) aware of who they were. Of course, they also don’t believe there was any need for Jesus’ sacrifice either.

 

[Thing]

I, who have not been surprised since 1987, can hardly believe what you have written, that is, if it was not just written poorly.
C&C:

…If there were some chance that Adam would not sin, then all might have been able to live in Eden

What on earth do you mean? God tripped up Adam so that many, many Saints, for want of a better word as that is what they must be without a fallen nature, would go to hell?

There is indeed something funny somewhere, Bookgirl.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I, who have not been surprised since 1987, can hardly believe what you have written, that is, if it was not just written poorly.

What on earth do you mean? God tripped up Adam so that many, many Saints, for want of a better word as that is what they must be without a fallen nature, would go to hell?

There is indeed something funny somewhere, Bookgirl.

I was asked this question from Chesterton rules. I posted my answer twice to his question.
Now, these issues face all Christians, regardless of being Catholic or Protestant. Here’s is your question that is similar to Chesterton’s question.

Was God surprised by the fall of Adam or Eve?

 

[Thing]

I was asked this question from Chesterton rules. I posted my answer twice to his question.
Now, these issues face all Christians, regardless of being Catholic or Protestant. Here’s is your question that is similar to Chesterton’s question.

Was God surprised by the fall of Adam or Eve?

Not at all.

Let me try now;

I know what you are going to say next. Does that mean you are going to say it?

 

[bookgirl32]

I was asked this question from Chesterton rules. I posted my answer twice to his question.
Now, these issues face all Christians, regardless of being Catholic or Protestant. Here’s is your question that is similar to Chesterton’s question.

Was God surprised by the fall of Adam or Eve?

No, because He knew what would happen. He also, of His own will and sovereignty, because He could do what He wanted to do, since He is sovereign, did not exercise control over Adam’s actions, and allowed Adam to make his own decision.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Not at all.

Let me try now;

I know what you are going to say next. Does that mean you are going to say it?

There nothing else to say. We know God knows all things before they happen.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, because He knew what would happen. He also, of His own will and sovereignty, because He could do what He wanted to do, since He is sovereign, did not exercise control over Adam’s actions, and allowed Adam to make his own decision.

But we know God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do, prior to placing the tree of knowledge in the garden. He also knew Eve would be tempted by the serpent and eat that forbidden fruit (not necesarily an apple And because all mankind would fall with Adam, He knew that Christ and Him crucified would be the answer for His glory and purpose, and our good. He also knew how many would come to Christ prior to creating the world. Now, do we believe God had the power to change things in which Adam or Eve would not fall, or that all would actually be saved through Christ? After-all, he created all mankind and knew which ones would come to faith in Christ before each one would be born.

 

[clmowry]

And, you believe you are capable of doing something God expressly does not want to happen? Are you greater than God?

Is there some particular reason why you “answer” questions about what you believe with questions about what I believe?

If you don’t want to be asked clarifying question about what you believe, then you could just say so and I’ll stop asking.

Chuck

 

[tweetymom]

One more thing, “forces” is a perjorative word. You’re implying that salvation is something bad that God thrusts upon us. I reject that.

When God made me alive, I rejoiced at His salvation. I desired His redemption just as I desired to be in sin before.

Amen brother. Been there done that and it is great!!!

 

[clmowry]

I was really hopping to have an enlightening discussion with TULIP advocates.

It seems pretty obvious we are not going to actually discuss TULIP in any meaningful way in this treads, so, good luck to those of you still trying.

Chuck

 

[Michael_Francis]

***Thanks to all who participated in this discussion. ***
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