What is God’s will? That you become one in Christ? That you should serve Him and love Him?How does believing that our freedom exists by God’s will in any way diminish his sovereignty?
But what if God sovereignly chose to give you this sovereignty?What is God’s will? That you become one in Christ? That you should serve Him and love Him?
So, if you choose not to, then you are thwarting God - you’ve gotten to “Check”, if not “Check Mate”. You’ve made yourself above God, in fact. He is limited by your choice; you are only limited by your choices, not His. You are sovereign, not God.
I’m extremely jealous. I used to live near Westminster West seminary and was a member of a PCA by there. I now live in a rural area along the river and forest, which is quite beautiful, but I had to settle into a non-denominational, non-confessional, Baptist emphasis church. The teaching pastor is Reformed in his theology.Just a note for Reformed guys: I go to R.C. Sproul’s original church before he moved to Fla. He still calls it Ligioneer ministries after the town. It’s an amazing legacy and the current Teaching Elder is very gifted himself.
Then God would no longer be sovereign in salvation and Calvinism would disappear.But what if God sovereignly chose to give you this sovereignty?
Even though it was His sovereign decision? Aren’t you limiting His sovereignty by suggesting that He couldn’t choose to do something?Then God would no longer be sovereign in salvation.
God is limited by His attributes. We know that it is imposible for God to lie or sin. So, in a sense, God cannot do all things. However, if God was not sovereign in all things, He could no longer be God, and the blessed hope that you have would be no hope at all.Even though it was His sovereign decision? Aren’t you limiting His sovereignty by suggesting that He couldn’t choose to do something?
So here’s the question, Chosen: Did you make a choice to follow God or do you do it unconsciously? If you say you made the choice then by your own definition you are taking away God’s sovereignty.I’m a full blown TULIP believer myself, but not as educated or eloquent as the other Reformed posters on this thread. I only have a few things to add.
First, the key difference in my mind between Reformed thinking (TULIP theology) and cooperative faith, either Catholic or other denominations like Methodist, Baptist, etc, boils down to God’s sovereignty.
Either God is completely sovereign, and His will is all that comes to pass, or God somehow allows His own will to be thwarted by His creation. In cooperative theology, Christ’s death was sufficient for all to come to God, yet only those who choose to are saved unto life. This means that God’s will is thwarted by the millions of souls who chose to reject Him. This renders man at least as powerful as God – only we are allowed to choose. God can only make the offer and hope we’ll come to Him. The same argument follows for Perseverance of the Saints as with Irresistible Grace. Either we can cooperate with God or we can block His will. God is reduced to a sideline cheerleader almost pleading with us to take His offer. This is not the God I see explained in the scriptures.
Secondly, about the Fall; the most glorious thing about being Reformed is the knowledge that God meant for Adam to fall – it was His express will. It had to be, or the Elect, known before time, would not have been necessary. If there were some chance that Adam would not sin, then all might have been able to live in Eden. Out of that, God changed us from created people – made from dust and bone – into sons of God, joint heirs with Christ. We are brothers to the Only Begotten Son of the Father! All because of the fall and the Redemption that God planned from the beginning.
Adam, before the fall, was only a created being. Adam, after the establishment of Christ’s church outside the garden, was a son of God; he was made equal to Christ through the imputation of Christ’s righteousness.
That’s easy: I was dead in my sin. Dead. I could neither hear nor respond to the message of salvation. Then, God, through the Holy Spirit, moved in my heart and made a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. At that time, I was fully aware of my sin and my need for a savior, then God’s mesage of good news landed on my ears and I understood that Christ was my only hope. It was all God and none of me.So here’s the question, Chosen: Did you make a choice to follow God or do you do it unconsciously? If you say you made the choice then by your own definition you are taking away God’s sovereignty.
But you still had to put forth the effort to do something, right? It sounds to me like you found out how awesome God’s love can be and you wanted to follow Him, so now you are, which is making a choice of you own free will. Could you, at any time, decide to not follow God?That’s easy: I was dead in my sin. Dead. I could neither hear nor respond to the message of salvation. Then, God, through the Holy Spirit, moved in my heart and made a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. At that time, I was fully aware of my sin and my need for a savior, then God’s mesage of good news landed on my ears and I understood that Christ was my only hope. It was all God and none of me.
I was dead and unable to hear, then - by God’s act - I was alive and unable to resist the call. My only “free will” was that I wanted to do that to which I was powerless to not do.
Like someone said earlier: Regeration proceeds faith.
So then you believe man has no free will.That’s easy: I was dead in my sin. Dead. I could neither hear nor respond to the message of salvation. Then, God, through the Holy Spirit, moved in my heart and made a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. At that time, I was fully aware of my sin and my need for a savior, then God’s mesage of good news landed on my ears and I understood that Christ was my only hope. It was all God and none of me.
I was dead and unable to hear, then - by God’s act - I was alive and unable to resist the call. My only “free will” was that I wanted to do that to which I was powerless to not do.
Like someone said earlier: Regeration proceeds faith.
I was following my free will - but only after God changed my Moral Liberty. Until then, I was dead in sin and could not hear the Gospel, repent of my sins, or do good works in the sight of God. My “free will” was constrainted to sin and sin’s results. When God made me alive, my heart was changed and my Moral Liberty was changed so that I could hear God’s message. Now, I was able to see my sin and strive to be like Christ.But you still had to put forth the effort to do something, right? It sounds to me like you found out how awesome God’s love can be and you wanted to follow Him, so now you are, which is making a choice of you own free will. Could you, at any time, decide to not follow God?
No, I believe Free Will is a Greek concept that directly opposes God’s sovereignity. If I could stand against God and do something He did not want to happen, I would be greater than God,So then you believe man has no free will.
God saves who He forces to be saved and lets those who He does not force to be saved be damned.
Correct?
Chuck
One more thing, “forces” is a perjorative word. You’re implying that salvation is something bad that God thrusts upon us. I reject that.So then you believe man has no free will.
God saves who He forces to be saved and lets those who He does not force to be saved be damned.
Correct?
Chuck
So then you believe that man does only what God wants to happen?No, I believe Free Will is a Greek concept that directly opposes God’s sovereignity. If I could stand against God and do something He did not want to happen, I would be greater than God,
And, you believe you are capable of doing something God expressly does not want to happen? Are you greater than God?So then you believe that man does only what God wants to happen?
Chuck
So, how do you explain Jesus in the garden? Matthew 26:39?It’s like asking “What if Christ had chosen to sin”. The very question has no meaning because it fundementally alters the nature of God into something that’s not, well, God.
How do you explain that? Jesus obviously didn’t want to die, yet He was (is) God. God the Father created everything just as it happened in order that His only begotten Son would have to die against His will?He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”
I’m not really talking about sin here though. I’m talking about the will.Just as with Satan in the desert, Christ was tempted in every way. His human nature was tested in the same ways were are. He, however, never suffered from Original sin and He was in perfect communion with the Father, so He was never going to sin.
He was the Second Adam, and He passed the test.