Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when...

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What then was the “hard teaching” that they heard? I suppose (like Augustine) one could believe that they took Jesus to be requiring a cannibalistic act from them….such is possible b/c that is where a literal understanding (of his very graphic words) would lead. One should note that Christ’s use of “chew” or “gnaw” would require the eater to actually bite into his flesh and chew on it for a literal fulfillment of Jesus’ words.
That is quite a scandal, indeed.

There was also a common use of the term “to chew” on a person as being sarcastic and insulting. If His words are to be understood metaphorically, He would have been saying “unless you disparage me you will have no life in you”. That, of course, makes no sense either.
In the Catholic Eucharist, no gnawing of flesh actually occurs b/c the accidents of the teeth never meet the accidents of Christ’s body.
Oh, dear, Radical. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
The Catholic Eucharist is not a literal fulfillment of John 6. If some walked away from a literal understanding, then those that left, rejected cannibalism (and the teacher of it).
I have always found it interesting that the Romans charged early Christians with “eating their god and drownding their infants”. :D:D

In fact, cannabalism ws one of the charges.
I don’t know that any of those people would have thought that Jesus was requiring a cannibalistic act from them. Jesus was profoundly moral and cannibalism is profoundly immoral. I suspect many would have concluded that Jesus couldn’t have intended to be taken literally, but w/o further explanation from him, they wouldn’t have known what to make of his words. Those words wouldn’t have made sense and would have been offensive. If that is right, then those that left rejected (what to them seemed to be) a nonsensical and offensive teaching (and the perceived teacher of it).
Yes, I agree.
The text doesn’t say why Jesus made no effort to clarify his meaning, but it makes it very clear that none left who had been actually called by the Father. Christ could have called out, “Wait I am only speaking metaphorically” or “Wait I am not speaking of cannibalism or of your teeth actually chewing my flesh”, but he didn’t, b/c it seems, that he didn’t care to.
True. He only wanted those who would trust Him enough to accept His teachings even if their meaning was not immediatly understandible.
I don’t know that Martyr held to a real somatic presence. There are quite a number of ways in which a believer can believe that the bread and wine are Christ’s flesh (note not “body” for Martyr) and blood that stop short of a real somatic presence.
Indeed.

However, since Justin was Catholic, we can be sure He embraced the catholic understanding . 👍
 
Radical, what alter is he talking about:

"For David had been appointed a priest by God, although Saul persecuted him. For all the righteous possess the sacerdotal rank. And all the apostles of the Lord are priests, who do inherit here neither lands nor houses, but serve God and the altar continually."

Also, why would Polycrate claim that John was a priest under the old covenant? :confused:
*I was asking myself the same question - old covenant :confused:
🙂
*
 
Hi, Freerf,

I think you have misread the question! Simply put: “Who founded the Catholic Church?” This does not require a so-called ‘Catholic answer’ - just a straight forward response. Is there a ‘Catholic answer’ to “Who entered England in 1066 and defeated the gathered forces at Hastings?” Now, I am honestly not aware of a group that still supports the defeated and quite dead Harrold … in an effort to deny William the Conquerer his rightful place in history. But, would you accuse the questioner of wanting a French answer?

Maybe the question is a ‘red herring’ …😃 but the list of denominations and their documented historical founders did point in a direction. I submit that the direction was away - and not toward Christ.

Make no mistake about it, the Holy Spirit will animate and bestow His Blessings where He Will - He is not bound by a denominaitonal barrier. The issue, however, is not can the milk be cleaned up after it has spilled - but, can we move so as to keep the milk in the glass. Yes, there are 30,000+ groups, assemblies, congregations, tabernacles, sects, cults and what have you - all claiming to be the church that is truly following Christ - and all having conflicting doctrines. Surly such chaos must cry out for the unity that Christ prayed for (John 17:21)

And, here is the rub - right from your second paragraph:

We believe Christ’s church is where His Spirit is, and not bound by a denomination, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Orthodox, etc… The Church was established by Christ and comprises of His people.

Just what is your Scriptural support for this position? I submit that no such all encompassing position exists. It isn’t that the Holy Spirit has limits - it is that Christ did not set up multiple churches with conflicting beliefs. And, there’s the rub. Ultimately, one is left in chosing between the Church founded by Christ on Peter, or the churches founded by men on other men as they follow the traditions of men. For the first 1,500 years, Matt 16:18 has been the guiding principle for following the Successor of Peter. We find this reality in Scripure, in the writings of the ECF and in secular history. There is no ‘Catholic’ or ‘Protestant’ answer - just an honest response to the question that has no agenda needing to be satisfied first.

You will note that the existing chaos of denominational beliefs has no Scriptural basis. It is no great leap of reasoning to see that none of these multiple denominations have Scriptural legitimacy. The concept of followers of Christ are Christ’s people is valid from a Catholic perspective - with the understanding that those who are not following the Successor of Peter are really separated breatheran. And, there are real limitations with being somewhere in the tent - and sitting at the Table of Christ, feasting on the Eucharist and enjoying the Graces of the Sacraments.

God bless
The question is a red herring. You ask the question but stipulate that the answer must be Catholic. You must forgive me if I answer it as a Protestant and from a Protestant perspective.

We believe Christ’s church is where His Spirit is, and not bound by a denomination, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Orthodox, etc… The Church was established by Christ and comprises of His people. Most of this I’m sure you’re familiar with, ad nauseum.

The Protestant can therefore view the Universal Church history as flowing through different denominations at different times, often simultaneously.

So one could say the “Catholic Church is not the Church founded by Jesus Christ” without needing to refute that the Catholic Church has a very, very long history. Christ founded His church, not your church, not my church. His church.

Your question is moot when viewed in the light of basic Protestant beliefs.
 
Hi, Freerf,

I think you have misread the question! Simply put: “Who founded the Catholic Church?” This does not require a so-called ‘Catholic answer’ - just a straight forward response. Is there a ‘Catholic answer’ to “Who entered England in 1066 and defeated the gathered forces at Hastings?” Now, I am honestly not aware of a group that still supports the defeated and quite dead Harrold … in an effort to deny William the Conquerer his rightful place in history. But, would you accuse the questioner of wanting a French answer?

Maybe the question is a ‘red herring’ …😃 but the list of denominations and their documented historical founders did point in a direction. I submit that the direction was away - and not toward Christ.

Make no mistake about it, the Holy Spirit will animate and bestow His Blessings where He Will - He is not bound by a denominaitonal barrier. The issue, however, is not can the milk be cleaned up after it has spilled - but, can we move so as to keep the milk in the glass. Yes, there are 30,000+ groups, assemblies, congregations, tabernacles, sects, cults and what have you - all claiming to be the church that is truly following Christ - and all having conflicting doctrines. Surly such chaos must cry out for the unity that Christ prayed for (John 17:21)

And, here is the rub - right from your second paragraph:

We believe Christ’s church is where His Spirit is, and not bound by a denomination, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Orthodox, etc… The Church was established by Christ and comprises of His people.

Just what is your Scriptural support for this position? I submit that no such all encompassing position exists. It isn’t that the Holy Spirit has limits - it is that Christ did not set up multiple churches with conflicting beliefs. And, there’s the rub. Ultimately, one is left in chosing between the Church founded by Christ on Peter, or the churches founded by men on other men as they follow the traditions of men. For the first 1,500 years, Matt 16:18 has been the guiding principle for following the Successor of Peter. We find this reality in Scripure, in the writings of the ECF and in secular history. There is no ‘Catholic’ or ‘Protestant’ answer - just an honest response to the question that has no agenda needing to be satisfied first.

You will note that the existing chaos of denominational beliefs has no Scriptural basis. It is no great leap of reasoning to see that none of these multiple denominations have Scriptural legitimacy. The concept of followers of Christ are Christ’s people is valid from a Catholic perspective - with the understanding that those who are not following the Successor of Peter are really separated breatheran. And, there are real limitations with being somewhere in the tent - and sitting at the Table of Christ, feasting on the Eucharist and enjoying the Graces of the Sacraments.

God bless
*I too was surprised at this concept of “a Catholic” and “a Protestant” answer to this question.:confused:

The name Protestant was attributed to those who followed Luther and his protesting against…the Catholic Church! The Catholic Church and the EO had been around from the beginning. Protestantism had its beginning in the fifteen hundreds. Jesus Christ did not come down and start the reformation by “inspiring” Luther. At no time did the HS err.

Cinette:)*
 
Hi, Curious Hobbit,

An excellent response! 👍

I had forgotten about the early Catholics being persecuted by the Romans for cannibalism… thanks for the reminder! 🙂

God bless
Radical,

No Christ never said, “my body will mystically change into bread” But he did
  1. Call him self the bread of life
  2. He Paralleled this bread to the manna in the desert, but said you will not die like the Israelites but have everlasting life. The manna in the desert was food for their journey to the promised land, it tasted like wafers made of honey, a foretaste of the “land of milk and honey”. The Eucharist is a wafer that is food for our journey, not a physical journey out of Egypt but a spiritual journey. When Christ stepped into the river it didn’t part like it did for Moses, but the clouds parted because the new exodus is a spiritual heavenly journey and not a physical journey. The eucharist is food for the new exodus
  3. He tells the people to eat this new bread after calling himself the bread of life, and then he tells them that his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink. He says “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” after having already said “ if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever”
Yes the last supper didn’t happen yet, but John’s narrative is kinda different from the others. John was written 20-30 years after the synoptic gospels and his style is more poetic. Sometimes he has foreshadowing or simply says something that will happen. For instance, at one point early in the gospel he refers to Judas Iscariot as something like “the one who would betray Jesus” way before Judas betrays him.

I’ve read the Confessions of Augustine and he emphasized the Eucharist at one point. He said something like “that holy bread that gives life” and other things. Other places in Augustine he makes reference to the Eucharist,

“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ” (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction” (Sermons, 272).
Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body. {Sermons 234}

Eat Christ, then; though eaten He yet lives, for when slain He rose from the dead. Nor do we divide Him into parts when we eat Him: though indeed this is done in the Sacrament, as the faithful well know when they eat the Flesh of Christ, for each receives his part, hence are those parts called graces. Yet though thus eaten in parts He remains whole and entire; eaten in parts in the Sacrament, He remains whole and entire in Heaven. {Mai 129, 1; cf. Sermon 131; on p.65}

Here’s an interesting perspective from Augustine on the “hard teaching”
“The very first heresy was formulated when men said: “this saying is hard and who can bear it [Jn 6:60]?” {Enarr. 1, 23 on Ps. 54; on p.66}

As for cannibalism, one reason the early Christians in Rome were persecuted is because the Eucharist was seen as cannibalism by opponents of Christianity.
 
Hi, Guanophore,

I must admit … I had never thought of God having lost His Power between Gen 1 and John 6! :eek: I guess He got it back in time for the Resurrection… 😃

Seriously, enjoyed your post and logical way you approach this topic.

God bless
Do you think that any minister of the Church has any role that is separate, apart from, or not based in Jesus relationship to the Church?

This may have to do with your understanding of what it means to be a priest. Do you agree that Jesus is our Great High Priest?

I am interested to learn more about this. How do they differ? How do you define the role of a “co-worker”.

So, do you agree with the scriptural parameters for bishop?

Yes, but the Didache was written as a liturgical guide, and was addressed to the presbyters.

And how did you determine that the “congregation needs some sort of leader”?

What for? I thought you said we are all part of the priesthood?

I am curious to know how you reconcile this statement with the scriptures that teach the contrary.
Do you honestly think the NT does not demonstrate that an apostolic function is to “do this, in memory of me”?

Maybe it would be easier to start with the other aspects of the role?

If the HS can make a priesthood of all believers, how is it He is unable to create a ministerial priesthood.

This is an interesting statement, but beyond the scope of this thread. However, when I read it I wonder, when God said

Let there be Light, was there any change?
Gen 1:6-26

6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.

20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.” And it was so.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so.

One has to wonder what happened to the creative power of God, that by the time the Last Supper rolled around, when He said “This is my Body”, He had lost the power to make is so. 🤷
 
Hi, Cinette,

By the very fact that this thread was going to have a ‘Protestant’ answer, it told me that we will first insert our prejudice or bias and then answer the question. This approach, as opposed to simply responding to the quesiton, can only lead to error and grief.

It reminded me of the math teacher listening to a student say, “But, I hate math. I would like to come up with my own answers because your ways are too hard.” Math is quite different from other discipliens, like ‘Creative Writing’… but even with using the imagination in one’s writing style - there still are a few rules that must be followed. There are no ‘Protestant’ answers to math or writing questions.

Simply because one has chosen to believe a particular way, should not distort one’s sense of objective fact. Of course, with a distorted view of objective fact, it is a lot easier to believe whichever way you want. I guess that is why there are 30,000+ groups out there all claiming to lead people to Christ by disrespecting and trashing His Words… :eek:

God bless
*I too was surprised at this concept of “a Catholic” and “a Protestant” answer to this question.:confused:

The name Protestant was attributed to those who followed Luther and his protesting against…the Catholic Church! The Catholic Church and the EO had been around from the beginning. Protestantism had its beginning in the fifteen hundreds. Jesus Christ did not come down and start the reformation by “inspiring” Luther. At no time did the HS err.

Cinette:)*
 
I am told by non-Catholics that the Catholic Church, in communion with Rome, is not the church founded by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, in Jerusalem. Please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church in communion with Rome, and when, just as I have done below, regarding just a few of the very first reformed churches?
Approximately1517yrs. before the one listed below.:yup:

The Lutheran church – 1517 AD, founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome.
 
Hi, Rainman10,

I was just thinking … do you think God had a Plan by establishing Apostolic Tradition before the development of the Canon of Scripture?

After reading a number of the posts presented, I get the impression that anyone with an idea can be a priest, create his own belief structure, pick and choose from Scripture and just pretty much arrange things to suit themselves. It is a wonder it took until the 16th Century for such imaginings to root themselves so firmly in the hearts of men.

God bless
Hi, tqualey,

Yes, I think so. But as good a plan as that may be, there are still those doubting Thomases, and those who think their way is better than God’s way, so they invent their own religions.
 
Hi, Onenow1,

I just can’t believe you guys would ‘spoof’ such an obviously serious topic - and make a mistake about it!! Yes … I think I have you on this one… 😃 The way I count, you will need to subtract 33 from 1517 … giving you 1,484 years as what I think is a more accurate - but equally spoofing type response. 🙂

Not to derail the thread - Have a great week - I go to jail tonight and teach a Catholic Bible Study class. At least half of the class is Protestant or atheist - so, they keep me on my toes… and I must say that CAF has been a real help. Tonight we will be getting ready for Lent.

God bless
Approximately1517yrs. before the one listed below.:yup:

The Lutheran church – 1517 AD, founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome.
 
Hi, Onenow1,

I just can’t believe you guys would ‘spoof’ such an obviously serious topic - and make a mistake about it!! Yes … I think I have you on this one… 😃 The way I count, you will need to subtract 33 from 1517 … giving you 1,484 years as what I think is a more accurate - but equally spoofing type response. 🙂

Not to derail the thread - Have a great week - I go to jail tonight and teach a Catholic Bible Study class. At least half of the class is Protestant or atheist - so, they keep me on my toes… and I must say that CAF has been a real help. Tonight we will be getting ready for Lent.

God bless
Hi, Tqualey,
:imsorry:
God Bless
🙂
 
Radical, please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when, just as you and I can identify the man that founded every other church, and when?
 
Hi, Joe370,

I am not sure … could be I’m wrong - but … a simple, direct and clearly worded question will probably put you on the ‘Didn’t Make The Cut’ list he is running! You see, with questions like this the degree of ‘wiggle room’ that allows for evasion is greatly trimmed that there just isn’t much margin.

When you consider the hundreds of posts that have simply demonstrated evasion, responding to something that was not asked and just ignoring the post - and, you want a direct, honest and clear response?!!!:rolleyes:

Best advice I have is just don’t hold your breath waiting for a real response. Of course, this could be viewed as the opportuntiy to turn ‘over a new leaf’ and show that he is actually capable of answering your question - but, it is best to just leave that up to him. Time will tell.

The good news is, if you didn’t ‘make the cut…’ you can become a ‘Free Agent’! 😃

God bless
Radical, please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when, just as you and I can identify the man that founded every other church, and when?
 
Radical you are right about 1 C 41:2. My bad.

To what liturgical offering is Clement referring regarding what the Lord commanded these fledgling Christian leaders to do?
actually Clement is still referring to the offerings and services that the Levite priests perform at that point…why he uses the present tense WRT to the offerings which are offered in Jerusalem (after its destruction) we don’t know…but he does.
Rad, Ignatius seems to be saying: if you have a true bishop, then you can be sure of your Eucharist being true:
yep, Iggy seems to want to use the Eucharist as a means of securing power and unity
*“The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him.” Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans 8 (from the book Early Christian Writings)
*
Coupled with this:
*“Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate (local church) those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices.” (1 Clement to the Corinthians)
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” (Ignatius to the Church in Smyrna c. 110 AD)*
The sole Eucharist should be considered valid if it is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him, and Ignatius believed that the Eucharist was indeed Jesus’ flesh and blood, the same flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead. Since Jesus’ flesh and blood (a genuine sacrifice) - is involved in the offering a priest is necessary - correct?
Your thoughts friend…
Ignatius uses extremely dramatic language such that you can’t be certain that he is speaking literally. For example:

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 ).

You should note that Iggy says Christ’s blood = incorruptible love. Not exactly literal…which isn’t unusual at all. Ignatius tends to stray from the literal which is why you can’t be sure that when he said that the “Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ” that he was talking about a Real Somatic Presence. At that point he is talking about the Docetists. When Ignatius states that the Eucharist is the flesh, he could mean that the Eucharist is the flesh a)literally, b)symbolically, c)sacramentally, d)representatively, or e)mysteriously etc. The Docetists seemed to deny that Christ came in the flesh. As such, they would not confess that the Eucharist was literally the flesh of Christ b/c no such flesh existed. Likewise, they would not confess that the Eucharist was symbolically the flesh of Christ b/c no such flesh existed. In fact, they would not confess that the Eucharist was the flesh of Christ in any way, shape or form b/c (they believed that) no such flesh existed. Here is an article that goes into detail
 
You should note that Iggy says Christ’s blood = incorruptible love. Not exactly literal…which isn’t unusual at all.
Christ’s blood* is *incorruptible love. Just like his death on the cross was “no greater love”. But that doesn’t mean Christ’s death was symbolic.

Nor does it follow that Christ’s blood is symbolic, either.🤷
 
Radical, I am a little confused:…
that’s okay
…you reject the ministerial priesthood because the word priest is not employed to describe the elder as a priest, but have no problem using the word invisible to describe the church, even though the word invisible is not used in scripture to describe the church. :confused:
Have you read Romans 9:6 where it states that not all who are descended from from Israel are Israel? There is the physical (visible) and the spiritual (invisible)…and these are terms that you can find in your bible.
 
Radical, what alter is he talking about:

"For David had been appointed a priest by God, although Saul persecuted him. For all the righteous possess the sacerdotal rank. And all the apostles of the Lord are priests, who do inherit here neither lands nor houses, but serve God and the altar continually."
the altar at the temple in Jerusalem…at that point Irenaeus is trying to explain why the apostles/disciples weren’t bound by the law of the Sabbath and he comes up with the idea that it is b/c they were priests (note that this is back before the Lord’s supper while they were walking through the grain fields and picking the heads on the sabbath)…part of all the righteous being priests. But the priests were only exempt from the law when they were serving in the temple (at the altar)…so for the exemption Irenaeus deems them to be priests continually serving at the altar. Please note the use of “continually” and “altar” (singular)…I expect that you thought it had something to do with the Eucharist which wasn’t continual for the 12 and would have involved a number of altars…
Also, why would Polycrate claim that John was a priest under the old covenant? :confused:
b/c he was confused? If he said that Peter was a fisherman before he was called by Christ, then we would know where he got the idea from…but we don’t know where he got the idea that John was a priest before the Lord’s Supper.
 
Radical, please give me the name of the man, or men, that founded the Catholic Church, and when, just as you and I can identify the man that founded every other church, and when?
as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus…It is akin to complaining that basketball can’t be a true game b/c we can provide the name of the person who invented it…and then boasting that golf is a true game b/c we can’t do the same. What you call the Catholic Church is the product of innovation and development over a considerable period of time…it contains a number of errors that have been introduced by that inovation and development and as such, it is not appropriate to identify the modern CC with the original Church. What we call the Lutheran Church (for example), is something that was started for the purpose of eliminating some of those errors. If it succeeded in that purpose (w/o replcaing the eliminated error with other error) then it would be a more legitimate representative of the original Church than the CC. (though I must say that the CC has “cleaned up its act” considerably form 1517)
 
that’s okay

Have you read Romans 9:6 where it states that not all who are descended from from Israel are Israel? There is the physical (visible) and the spiritual (invisible)…and these are terms that you can find in your bible.
Your dancing.
even though the word invisible is not used in scripture to describe the church
Just because the terms are used in the Bible does not answer the question of where they are used to describe the Church.
 
Radical;7615720]as I have explained before, I think that your question is bogus


I know you think it’s bogus but perhaps you could still answer it. After all that is the point of this thread.
 
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