Please help me answer this objection to Christianity, fast

[Tonitz]

While I agree with you, Toneyrey, as far as people who believe and are in the Church, there are some inescapable numbers that I’m not sure how to account for except by the stance taken by Della, or something like it. It is difficult to accept that even with the condition of original sin that only 20% of the world population is Catholic even after 2000 years of work. And we, well, I, still wonder what about all those people who came before Jesus. Even if the world is only 6K years old as some claim, that is STILL a lot of folks. And it is not unreasonable by means of science to consider that we’ve been around a heck of a lot longer than that.

All that is to say that whatever I personally believe given the Bible, the Church, and tradition, the dynamics that would account for all those not in the cone of influence following Jesus’ ministry are somewhat sketchy in my understanding. I can’t imagine what it might seem in practical terms to a non believer to be confronted with the truth of the Bible. Simple argument doesn’t appear to me to be sufficient, especially given the fate of many missionaries, not to mention some of the things wreaked on Aborigines by our and other albeit piously well intentioned Gospel spreaders.

So it’s all kind of a mystery to me how all that works, and I’m not sure it is our job to sort it out in terms that would make it palatable to our Indian friend in question. I personally cannot think of anything useful to put forth as an intellectually based argument in the face of such innocence. Somehow I keep getting back to the efficacy of questioning of our ways brought about by the example of living by the Word as being the only truly useful thing. But I’ve never had the motives nor instincts of a salesman.

 

[Della]

We do not have to make the mission of the Church “palatable” to anyone because we aren’t offering them damnation, but quite the opposite. What the Church offers is moral certainty of salvation through the redemptive sacrifice of a real, historical person.

As to number of Catholics/Christians in the world, to my mind it’s not that there are so few but so many considering the obstacles to faith, not only in man’s fallen nature, nor in the temptations of the flesh or the ill-will of the Evil One, but in the very real difficulties of spreading the Gospel before modern transportation and media existed. Add to that hostile governments and the plain failings of people and it is not surprising that only a quarter of the world claims Christ.

But, as the Church teaches, and has always taught, those who seek God will be rewarded. I fear more for the millions of Catholics who have the privilege of priest and parish but still live like heathens, or worse. Who go to Mass when it suits them when there are millions who would crawl on their knees over broken glass to hear what we hear every Sunday and receive the body and blood of the very Son of God. It is we who have failed, not God.

I suppose I go on too much. I apologize. But, God is not unfair nor does he love those who do not know Christ any less–he never loved any man less for who he is or where he was born. We aren’t educated in these things anymore. I am privileged to have been to Bible college, even though it was not a Catholic school. I learned a good many things that still serve me well as a Catholic and that I wish I could share with my fellow Catholics, but have no way to do that. Is it frustrating? Yes. But, God knows best, therefore I will be content to write what I have learned here and hope what I share benefits others in some way.

 

[tonyrey]

All those statements are true but the fact remains that the Jews alone are the Chosen People from whom the prophets and the Messiah came.

It wasn’t necessary for their salvation. But the coming of the Messiah foretold by the Jewish prophets was necessary for their salvation.

People think God goes just by “the Book” and that Catholics are “people of the Book”, but God doesn’t and we aren’t. That’s the answer.

We are not people of the Book but people of the Church founded by the Messiah/Suffering Servant whose coming was necessary for their salvation.

St. Paul tells us the pagans have no excuse before God because they have the evidence of nature to show them who God is. He couldn’t have made that claim if God hadn’t given his promise to all mankind in Adam and Eve.

God will not ask us what doctrines we knew and understood, he is going to ask us what we did with the grace he gave us, no matter who we are. The more knowledge we have the more responsible we are before God. It’s a matter of culpability not who received the revelation of God when, you see.

I entirely agree with you.

 

[tonyrey]

While I agree with you, Tonyrey, as far as people who believe and are in the Church, there are some inescapable numbers that I’m not sure how to account for except by the stance taken by Della, or something like it. It is difficult to accept that even with the condition of original sin that only 20% of the world population is Catholic even after 2000 years of work. And we, well, I, still wonder what about all those people who came before Jesus. Even if the world is only 6K years old as some claim, that is STILL a lot of folks. And it is not unreasonable by means of science to consider that we’ve been around a heck of a lot longer than that.

It is not difficult to accept if we believe the teaching of the Church that one’s ultimate authority is one’s conscience, no matter how rudimentary it may be. We are not expected to be infallible but to do what we sincerely believe is right. Ignorance has its compensations! Christians have far more responsibility than those who have never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus.

All that is to say that whatever I personally believe given the Bible, the Church, and tradition, the dynamics that would account for all those not in the cone of influence following Jesus’ ministry are somewhat sketchy in my understanding. I can’t imagine what it might seem in practical terms to a non-believer to be confronted with the truth of the Bible. Simple argument doesn’t appear to me to be sufficient, especially given the fate of many missionaries, not to mention some of the things wreaked on Aborigines by our and other albeit piously well intentioned Gospel spreaders.

In Africa I was surprised by how readily pagans accepted the message of the Gospels. Their authenticity is clear to any unbiased person. The truth shines by its own light!

So it’s all kind of a mystery to me how all that works, and I’m not sure it is our job to sort it out in terms that would make it palatable to our Indian friend in question. I personally cannot think of anything useful to put forth as an intellectually based argument in the face of such innocence. Somehow I keep getting back to the efficacy of questioning of our ways brought about by the example of living by the Word as being the only truly useful thing. But I’ve never had the motives nor instincts of a salesman.

You are right about example being more efficacious but Jesus Himself also appealed to reason:

“Which of you will throw the first stone?”
"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?
“Can any of you prove I am guilty of sin?”

Without an intellectual basis religion is mere superstition.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I had to read a letter of a Native American speaking to a missionary around 1805 for my US history class. He asked why the Christian God had not given the Biblical revelation to the Indians, and why the Christian religion is the right way to worship the “Great Spirit”, as he called God. Answer?

If God did not permit ignorance, that is to say a lack of true knowledge, there would be no need for missionaries, apologetics, or Christian philosophy in general. Plus there is no reason to believe that all people who have been given the mercy of heaven will know Gods revelation in this life time. Aborted children do not know God or Christianity in their short existence, and neither did many people who survived their mothers wombs.

The problem of evil is also the problem of ignorance. Why does God allow ignorance?

Glory to the father in heaven for such a mercy as invincible ignorance.

 

[Della]

Della;7494967:

But the coming of the Messiah foretold by the Jewish prophets was

necessary for their salvation.

Definitely! The redemption Christ effected by his death and resurrection is why all people can be saved through God’s grace. There’s no salvation apart from Christ. I realized late last night that I hadn’t made that point. Thanks for bringing it up. :tiphat:

We are not people of the Book but people of the Church founded by the Messiah/Suffering Servant whose coming was necessary for their salvation.
I entirely agree with you.