Please help me like the Nicene Creed

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newcalling

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I am serious here, not trying to start an argument. It is really gnawing at me, and I need some new perspective on it perhaps. Unfortunately, my situation doesn’t allow me to easily meet with my priest on this, or any, topic. I really would appreciate your help. I apologize for the length of this post, and I hope I put this in the right sub-forum.

The situation is basically that my parish has always used the Apostles Creed. I don’t know why, but it was always that way. I love the Apostles Creed, and think of it as inspired. However, since we stopped being a Franciscan parish, we have switched to the Nicene Creed (it was gradually introduced over the last few months, and now it’s just the norm.) I have always had a problem with the Nicene Creed.
  1. I don’t like how in English it says “maker of Heaven and Earth” instead of “creator of Heaven and Earth.” Maker doesn’t sound as impressive as creator. Creator allows for ex nihilo, but in my mind “maker” doesn’t. It may be nit picky, but language is important to me.
  2. While I find the Apostles Creed beautiful and poetic, the Nicene Creed feels forced in its wording. It sounds like someone took the beautifully, Divinely inspired Apostles Creed, and put some legalese to it to solve conflicts in belief. I know that that’s exactly the case with the awkwardly worded “filioque” clause when professing belief in the Holy Spirit. I also know it was edited over time by later councils, and we don’t even say the original from the Council of Nicaea. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the original, so I don’t know what I’d feel about it; either way, it’s not what we say at mass.
The one thing I really do like in the Nicene Creed over the Apostles Creed is the clause, “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God.” I think that’s powerful.

Anyway, I’m having a real hard time with this one. I only became Catholic in 2015, and this is the first major hurdle I’m seeing. I know the Nicene Creed is supposed to be the norm, and almost every parish uses it. I don’t know why we used the Apostles Creed while we were a Franciscan parish, maybe it had something to do with the history of the Mission where our parish is (built in 1797.)

The point is, I’m really uncomfortable saying the Nicene Creed, but I want to make the profession of faith with the rest of my parish. That, and since I’m in the choir (up front, not in the loft) it would be poor representation of those with ministries within our parish if I were to just not say the Creed at all. Being on microphone with the rest of the choir, I definitely can’t just say the Apostles Creed instead.

It’s become a big problem for me, and I would love to be convinced to like it, or at least be more alright with it. Going to mass is so important to me, the Eucharist is everything, and I’m involved in a couple of ministries and the OFS (Third Order Secular Franciscans.)

Please be kind in your responses. I’m genuinely seeking guidance, not trying to make an argument.
 
I presume you go to Mass once a day at max. The Nicene Creed takes what, 2 minutes to say? Could you not just offer it up for the Poor Souls or perhaps focus on the line you said you do like? The rest of the time when not at Mass you may continue to pray the Apostles’ Creed.

I’m not trying to be unkind, but like I said this is a 2 or 3 minute prayer so I am not sure why you need to “like” it, you just need to say it. I’m not a big fan of several aspects of Mass such as the latest revised version of the Scripture readings, but I can put up with it there and simply read the old version I like at home.
 
I get what you’re saying, Tis_Bearself. What I say is incredibly important to me. I strive to say precisely what I mean, and to mean everything I say. Profession of a Creed during Mass is kind of a big deal when it comes to meaning what one says, at least from my perspective.
 
I think part of the issue here is you just became Catholic in 2015, and this is the first thing you’ve run up against that really bugs you. It’s like the honeymoon is over and the Church keeps leaving the cap off the toothpaste tube.

Those of us who have been Catholic over the last few decades have been through so many shifts of prayers and wording and suchlike, as the Church seems to revise the prayer language of the Mass and scripture on a regular basis, that while we might dislike certain changes, we see change as inevitable and if it is really bothering us, we start going to TLM where things stay more the same over the long term.

In your case, perhaps you can find a Mass to attend at another Franciscan parish or monastery.
 
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You prefer certain verbiage? Maker and Creator are interchangeable. Semantics should not be a stumbling block for you. Keep in mind that the Church, at least in English, has tended to dumb everything down for decades. The Nicene Creed was a response, in large part, to the Arian heresy - thus the “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God” clause. Arius and his followers denied the divinity of Christ. Other heretics denied His humanity.

Another example of an addition to the creed is the “and the Son” as regards the Holy Spirit’s procession from Father and Son. That stems from those who believed (as the Orthodox still do) that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father. But, that assumes that the eternal Word was not in possession of the Holy Spirit - thus had to receive it from time to time, or once for all time. But, what about before time began? To Catholics, it does not make sense. It seems that they have a substantially different definition of the Holy Spirit(?)

The universal solution to all things spiritual s to head straight for the Tabernacle and spend time in devoted prayer before our Lord. Beg Him to send His Holy Spirit upon you with the Spirit’s charism of Understanding. Then, be patient as God is patient.

Word.
 
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I’m pretty sure the filioque is simply adding “and the Son” and I really don’t get how that is awkward.
So it really feels like the only issue is that it says Maker instead of Creator.
They’re interchangeable words. Forget how they feel to you perhaps, and think about what it actually means.
God bless
 
Welcome to Church first of all!!! Number one, as Tis_Bearself noted, you don’t seem to have any doctrinal problems with the Nicene Creed. So, technically, even if you say it, you won’t be saying something against your conscience or anything. Personally, I dislike some things about the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I like the Extraordinary Form much better. But that does not stop me from going to the Ordinary Form from time to time and participating in it. So whatever you do, you don’t have doctrinal issues. Thus, I would just say the Nicene Creed and (figuratively) bite my tongue.
 
I’m a little confused. Is there anything in the Nicene Creed that you think isn’t true? If it is a problem with not liking the language, you can always mentally edit it:

“maker* (by which I mean creator) of heaven…”

If your problem is that you don’t believe it, you have bigger fish to fry.
 
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I disagree here. If you don’t believe in the translation, why should you recite it?
 
Because first of all, OP did not seem to say that he doesn’t believe in part of the prayer, only that he didn’t like the English word used, and prefers a different English wording that to the vast majority of us means the exact same thing.

Second, it is part of the Mass and a Catholic is expected to recite it. If you don’t believe in part of it then you have a doubt problem and should be speaking to a priest about it. If you don’t have doubts but simply don’t like the wording, like I said it is over in 2 minutes.

Third, it is a Catholic prayer of long standing, not something like the Sign of Peace that in Church time line terms was just put into the Mass recently.
 
There is more to it than that. “Procedit” means something subtly different than the Greek so simply removing filioque may not work in the Latin, and in English that meaning is even more lost.

All this coming from the simple “26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you” John 14
 
Do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Part I of the CCC (The Profession of Faith) is structured around both the Apostles and Nicene Creeds and explains them in detail. Maybe it would be helpful for you to read and study the CCC to better understand the Nicene Creed?

If it’s simply a matter of not liking the translation because it’s not poetic, there isn’t anything that can be done about it. There are different English translations floating around but they’re all pretty similar and none are poetic and we have to use the translation the Church wants us to use. Perhaps you could find time to pray it a few times during the week so it becomes familiar and not so alien to you?
 
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It’s a little hard to believe that semantics is a stumbling block. Best for the OP to call Dr. David Anders’ EWTN radio show “Called to Communion.”
 
Thank you for great responses so far. I do realize I haven’t clearly stated what I don’t like about it. It’s not that I, per se, disagree with any of it, but parts of it make me incredibly uncomfortable. There is a difference between “maker” and “creator,” and even though in common parlance they’re essentially interchangeable, the differences exist. I also understand why certain wording was added to combat certain heresies, and I think that’s actually where my biggest problem is; I don’t think those statements necessarily always fit. It seems to me like they took something which was beautiful and Divinely inspired, the Apostles Creed, and made addendum and amendments, kind of a patch here and a patch there. Sometimes something which is patched is beautiful, like I said I love the “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God” passage, but sometimes the patchwork is too obvious. I honestly do not think there should have been anything definitive said about the filioque discussion, as those mysteries are beyond human understanding. It should not have been something which split the church. While I agree that what the church says about it makes sense, and is probably right, I don’t think it belongs in the Creed.
 
newcalling said:
  1. I don’t like how in English it says “maker of Heaven and Earth” instead of “creator of Heaven and Earth.” Maker doesn’t sound as impressive as creator.
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Please don’t become a purist or some of those Catholics that say “ah if only we could go back to the glories of Latin and leave the Vernacular and all its imperfections aside…”. 🙂 Maker and Creator are the same thing. Take it as it is. Saints before you for centuries have accepted it, right?
newcalling said:
  1. While I find the Apostles Creed beautiful and poetic, the Nicene Creed feels forced in its wording. It sounds like someone took the beautifully, Divinely inspired Apostles Creed, and put some legalese to it to solve conflicts in belief.
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Yes, that’s why it’s called the Creed of Nicea and Constantinople! It came out of two major Councils where major heresies were being debated by the Church and in order to crush them the appropriate language had to be found! Actually the language is very transcendental and mystical, typical of Eastern Christianity. Which is why in the West, with our legalistic mindset, we often have a hard time accepting teachings for what they are: a legitimate exercise of the Church’s Teaching Authority received from God.
newcalling said:
It’s become a big problem for me, and I would love to be convinced to like it, or at least be more alright with it.
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In charity, you do not have to be convinced to like it or be alright with it.

Holy Church demands your religious submission of mind and will.

This is an act, a resolution, and it is born out of justice (the Creed expresses infallible truths and the Church has authority to demand such submission to the Truth) and also out of humility (we believe in the Teaching Authority given to the Church, especially exercised by the Holy Father and by Councils).

If you build your relationship with God and the Church on “liking” or “being alright”, you are building on sand. The Church is divine, but it is a hospital for sinners. You won’t always like what you see. Saint Francis embraced the leper because he did not like what he saw, but he knew that under the leprosy was Christ. Also in the spiritual life there are moments of great desolation, “dark nights”, times of numbness or dryness. To give up on prayer then is to surrender to the spirit against Christ. The Psalms often cry out to God: “Why are you asleep?” or “I lie like those in the depths of the tomb”, but the Psalmist is still praying and he says: “I will still praise you”.

I recommend you meditate often before the image of a crucifix. Christ did not like or think it was alright to be scourged, crowned with thorns, and crucified to save sinners. He did it because He chose to love us unconditionally. “It was not the nails that kept Him fastened to the Cross…it was His love.”
 
newcalling said:
It seems to me like they took something which was beautiful and Divinely inspired, the Apostles Creed, and made addendum and amendments, kind of a patch here and a patch there.
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The Nicene Creed is most likely older than the Apostles Creed as we now know it. Here’s a wiki article on the history of The Apostles Creed for you to read if you’re so inclined:

 
newcalling said:
While I find the Apostles Creed beautiful and poetic, the Nicene Creed feels forced in its wording. It sounds like someone took the beautifully, Divinely inspired Apostles Creed, and put some legalese to it to solve conflicts in belief.
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I am also not a huge fan of the routine use of the Nicene Creed, for similar reasons: it is clunky and long-winded.

But both it and the Apostles Creed were created for the same slightly legalistic purpose, to draw a bright line around what a true Christian is, and implicitly make the point that other Christians don’t really qualify… and they need to get on board.

It’s recital by the faithful during mass is a purity test of sorts. (One could compare it to tests used against our tradition of Christianity by both Jews in expelling Christians from the synagogues, and by the English in requiring that its citizens receive Anglican communion once a year.)

So naturally the creeds are basically laundry lists of beliefs. And as you note the laundry was in high gear by the Council of Nicaea.

I’m a little confused by your calling the Apostles Creed “divinely inspired” in contrast to the Nicene. Neither is directly from scripture, but both are accepted by the Church for recital in public prayer particularly at mass.
 
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newcalling said:
Anyway, I’m having a real hard time with this one. I only became Catholic in 2015, and this is the first major hurdle I’m seeing.
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If this is you first “major” hurdle, you’re doing fine. Just suck it up and say it. Offer it up for the sins of the world.
 
“Maker of heaven and earth” vs. “Creator of heaven and earth”
I think “maker” is more powerful and divine than “creator”. “Creator” an also be a human, or other being subjected into being. We are creators too but we are not God. “Creation” implies certain finite actions like thinking, choosing, separating, arranging, giving shape to.
“Maker” is more linked to supreme power. Do you remember the expression “make things happen”? God can make things happen. I like the fact that it is vague because it expresses the meekness of our condition. We are His children but we are limited. We are subjected to Him. We also do not know and we will never know all about Him, that is why we just contemplate what He makes. How? It doesn’t matter, accept it. I guess “maker” also inspires providence to me. I believe we fell because we wanted too much. We sat in His throne. We broke the rules of Heaven. And He punished us, He loves us but He will never change the rules of Heaven of our sake. We must accept His presence and His will and be content with all that gives and does not give to us.
 
Being uncomfortable with something may not be a bad thing. Sometimes we are disturbed, or shaken up, by the Holy Spirit to make us look at things anew or delve deeper into something.

I’m always tripping up over the Creeds unless I have it printed in front of me (I recite the Apostles’ Creed each day as part of the Office, then the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed on a Sunday, both from texts approved for the Ordinariate, however, if I attend an OF Mass for a Sunday or Solemnity I’m entirely lost with the translation). The variations do get me thinking though and make me eternally grateful we don’t have to recite the Athanasian Creed each Sunday.
 
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