Please help me with these stumbling blocks

[Cory_G]

This particular thing is a requirement of the school - if you want the “special favour” of going to that school (which has absoluely nothing to do with the Church itself - there is no requirement for a Catholic to “must” attend an elite school), then you need to prove that you attend Mass every week, and that’s how they’ve (the school, not the Church) chosen to do it.

The “special favour” isn’t a favour of the Church, though. The Church doesn’t care which school you send your kids to. It’s a “special favour” of that particular school.

This was just one example, the one I noticed while looking at the schools documents.

I have no evidence of other favorable treatment, but I do not dismiss the possibility that there may be.

But these phony assertions that this school has nothing to do with the Church are ridiculous. The school is run by the parish. It is intertwined and 100% affiliated. They share the building, land, and parishioners. Money raised by the parish was used to build their school.

 

[jmcrae]

Does the Catholic Church really hold such a mistrust of its parishioners that things such as tithing envelopes and bulletins being signed by Priest are requirements?

From the other end of the stick, what we notice is that when we require families to attend Mass and have some kind of tracking system in place, attendance at Mass suddenly triples. Why is that - unless those people weren’t attending Mass, before, but only saying that they were?

 

[Ag_not]

Does the Catholic Church really hold such a mistrust of its parishioners that things such as tithing envelopes and bulletins being signed by Priest are requirements?

If that’s what’s required, then that’s what required in that parish. So what? Not all parishes are the same.

Peace be with you too Cory, but I forsee serious problems ahead with obedience, if the issues of making a simple donation can casue you such angst, never mind this idea you have that the church only values those with money and gives out special favours. There is something very profoundly twisted in yoour beliefs here. Now, to be honest, they smack a bit of the old protest of the selling of indulgences and simony from way back.

Is that what’s really going on here?

 

[Cory_G]

Collections would drop like a stone if parishes didn’t have regular Sunday collections. It’s human nature. I would suggest going to a few Stewardship commission/committee meetings if you doubt it.

They’ll take your donation if you show up midweek and give it to a secretary in the office or whomever.

I think rather than faulting the system…and I say this charitably…you need to examine yourself. The “feelings of inadaquacy” are yours, not others. The easy, uncharitable thing to say would be “Get over it” or as my business partner who is a councelor might say, “You can only be taken advantage of (in terms of feelings) if you allow it”.

The only people who know how much you put in are the two, maybe three people around you during collection, and whoever in the office does the tallying if you use an envelope. If they are critical of your donation or non-donation, so what? If you are more concerned about what other people think of you than of the good your donation, however large or small it may be, does for the parish, the diocese, the poor, the disadvantaged, etc, then it’s time to reassess your priorities.

Is your focus on you and how you feel about giving or is it on the Almighty and what he might be able to do with your gifts?

As far as “Pay for Pray”, if you cannot afford the customary donation for baptism or marriage, you can get such for “free”, possibly at another parish. Lights, heat, A/C all cost money, and the pastors or deacons deserve way more money than they are paid in salary.

I agree that the feeling of inadequacy are my own. The focus is on what others think of me and the resentment comes from the entity that put me in the position to begin with.

 

[jmcrae]

But these phony assertions that this school has nothing to do with the Church are ridiculous. The school is run by the parish. It is intertwined and 100% affiliated. They share the building, land, and parishioners. Money raised by the parish was used to build their school.

The school is having something to do with that particular parish - apparently they have some sort of mutual agreement going on, probably with regard to religious education at the school. This is fairly common.

At the parish where I work, we have three affiliated schools, who provide a daily Religion class, and we have various events for the kids at our parish church. (In our case, the schools are free, and anybody can attend them; there is no requirement to attend Mass, but the Catholic students who attend those schools have a Religion class that they can take, there - and in Religion class they are encouraged to make a weekly habit of attending Mass. The schools are funded by school taxes that are assessed by the City.)

This is the individual parish entering into an agreement with an individual school. It has nothing to do with Rome. Rome doesn’t say anything about where you should send your kids for school. Rome says that you are the primary educator of your child, and that these decisions are yours to make.

 

[Cory_G]

If that’s what’s required, then that’s what required in that parish. So what? Not all parishes are the same.

Peace be with you too Cory, but I forsee serious problems ahead with obedience, if the issues of making a simple donation can casue you such angst, never mind this idea you have that the church only values those with money and gives out special favours. There is something very profoundly twisted in yoour beliefs here. Now, to be honest, they smack a bit of the old protest of the selling of indulgences and simony from way back.

Is that what’s really going on here?

That is a very good point you make. I have always had major trouble with obedience and authority. When I was in the Navy I used to butt heads with the brass.

On the twisted beliefs statement, I couldn’t disagree more. It is fact that the school favors frequent envelopes over infrequent envelopes, which may or may not have any true reflection on Mass attendance.

When we look at the story of the prodigal son we see the love is bestowed the same for the returning son as for the son who never left. I think part of the lesson here is that Catholics are Catholics and shouldn’t be rated. Yet this parish does. So it is not a monetary issue, but a rating of faith issue, based on attendance.

 

[Newbie2]

I agree that the feeling of inadequacy are my own. The focus is on what others think of me and the resentment comes from the entity that put me in the position to begin with.

Then you need to change that focus. Bugger what other people think of you!

I used to be a wee bit self-conscious about, say, when I went to a different mass than my family on a particular week for whatever reason, and not putting in the envelope that the “boss” usually handles. I also had a discussion with one of the office staff that I know are quite wealthy and are more than proportionally generous.

They contribute once monthly, and since she works in the office, she just brings in her check…which means people that don’t know this might think they don’t contribute a dime (they drive nice cars and such; not showy, but it’s clear they have some bux).

So, I’d advise that you try to “focus” on something else than collections and how it’s done. It may be difficult at first, but it helps to remind yourself from time to time that it’s nobody’s business but the Almighty’s what you choose to contribute.

 

[jmcrae]

To add, Ag_not, you keep mentioning amount of tithe, yet I have never mentioned it once.

I think what you’re not “getting” is that they can put an empty envelope in on the weeks when they aren’t tithing. Again, it’s only the envelope that they want. They don’t care about the money.

 

[Cory_G]

From the other end of the stick, what we notice is that when we require families to attend Mass and have some kind of tracking system in place, attendance at Mass suddenly triples. Why is that - unless those people weren’t attending Mass, before, but only saying that they were?

The bottom line on this topic is, treat me with respect and with dignity and I will return the favor. Treat me like a child and I will lose all respect for your authority. I cannot be alone on this matter.

One thing for sure, I will not accept disrespect and mistrust with a smile. It doesn’t matter to me what someone’s experience has been with others.

 

[Cory_G]

I think what you’re not “getting” is that they can put an empty envelope in on the weeks when they aren’t tithing. Again, it’s only the envelope that they want. They don’t care about the money.

I can concede that. I have no idea if that practice is frowned upon or not. I will take your word for it that it is acceptable.

 

[Ag_not]

I think what you’re not “getting” is that they can put an empty envelope in on the weeks when they aren’t tithing. Again, it’s only the envelope that they want. They don’t care about the money.

That’s what I was getting at - it’s used for one thing and one thing only in this case, and thats proof of attendance at mass. Nothing else.

 

[jmcrae]

The bottom line on this topic is, treat me with respect and with dignity and I will return the favor. Treat me like a child and I will lose all respect for your authority. I cannot be alone on this matter.

Well, you’re in enough of a minority that the system works.

 

[Ag_not]

The bottom line on this topic is, treat me with respect and with dignity and I will return the favor. Treat me like a child and I will lose all respect for your authority. I cannot be alone on this matter.

One thing for sure, I will not accept disrespect and mistrust with a smile. It doesn’t matter to me what someone’s experience has been with others.

You can’t just rock up to an office window and demand say, a drivers licence. Or a degree. Or whatever. You have to submit statements, provide written evidence, get statements etc etc. Oh and dont forget the photos!!

So if a parish decides it wants signed bulletins as proof of attendance, or an envelope, what’s the big deal. Thats their particular proof system. I cant see why its a problem.

 

[kage_ar]

Do you get all twisted out of shape when your boss makes you fill out a time card or when your teacher wants to see your homework?

 

[Ruthie]

I’ve been reading this thread, and frankly, I am feeling somewhat impatient with you, Cory. Though I do agree with you on many points.

Yes, I agree that two years in RCIA is excessive - though there is a lot to learn about the Church. Are you sure that this is the policy throughout your Diocese? Call them and ask. If it is only your parish that requires this - then pick another parish, and complain to the Bishop. I see from the website that there is another parish in north LV.

As for the “special treatment” thing, and the problem with passing the basket - you are letting resentment based in your ideas of how things should be done come between you and Christ. The Church does not pass the basket to embarrass you. The school did not put its silly admission requirements in place to irritate you.

Christ died for you. Don’t let these resentments get between you and Him, and His Church. Have you ever heard the old saying, “The Church is not a country club for saints, but a hospital for sinners”? That applies to clergy and school administrators as well.

Try praying for the people you resent. It helps get rid of resentment. I promise. I’ve done it, and it works.

God bless you with peace,

Ruthie

 

[Ag_not]

The Church does not pass the basket to embarrass you. The school did not put its silly admission requirements in place to irritate you.

Christ died for you. Don’t let these resentments get between you and Him, and His Church…Try praying for the people you resent. It helps get rid of resentment. I promise. I’ve done it, and it works.

God bless you with peace,

Ruthie

Wise words indeed

 

[Usagi]

On the twisted beliefs statement, I couldn’t disagree more. It is fact that the school favors frequent envelopes over infrequent envelopes, which may or may not have any true reflection on Mass attendance.

I agree that this particular parish and its school have an odd method of determining “active parishioner” status, and one that might easily be perceived to judge and make unwarranted distinctions between people. You obviously have taken it that way.

I do believe it’s an innocent misstep, though. The school wants to give priority to active parishioners at the affiliated parish, and tracking the weekly offering envelopes is their way of seeing who is at Mass every week.

Yes, because of their system, someone who attends every week but puts in an envelope only once a month is not counted as attending frequently. Likewise, someone who does not use the envelope system at all to identify themselves is going to look as though they never come to mass, even if they do.

Those are problems with their chosen tracking system, and possibly ones that should be brought to their attention. The fact that their system is tied into the weekly offering and thus may be perceived as tied to the money contributed (even though they explicitly indicate that it is not) is another potential pitfall.

Still, that’s just a problematic tracking system. The parish and school aren’t trying to insult the faithful who contribute less often. The only favoritism they’re deliberately showing is toward members of the parish, which seems reasonable since (as you point out) the parishioners’ money is what enabled the school to come into existence. It’s certainly not the case that the Catholic Church as a whole is trying to mistreat you.

Usagi

 

[Ag_not]

I was talking about this today with a catholic mother I met through Mass. Apparently, the schoold her kids go to wanted a written letter from the priest to say he personally knew them, and knew them to be regular attenders at mass, and active in their faith. No letter - No admission!!

That seems an even more problematic method to me - especially in a huge parish. The envelope tracking system seems simple and effective by comparison.

 

[vocatio]

Corey, we make a lot of money but we can’t tithe right now because of illnesses and other things. We were giving at an all time high when my wife got sick. She made a transition from a Home Daycare to teaching, but her illness caused her to foget. Talk about feeling lame and embarrassed. Know one knows or even cares about how much money you’re putting in there. Tithing is not required. That’s an old law thing that many Protestants try to do. Some faiths nearly extort money from the congregation.

As far as charging for the fees. This is really a way of getting people to be part of it and NOT to do it with empty promises. In your situation you would not be required to pay. Sometimes people that work at the parish can be quite ignorant and even outright mean at times. Just think of it as penance. Offer up the struggle and pain. I know what you mean by all of this. But you’re sort of looking at it the wrong way. The main reason they want the envelopes is the requirement to be a practical Catholic or at least show proof that you are participating. I know people that faked converting just to be able to send their children to a good Catholic school away from bad public schools. We choose to send ours to public school because they can reach more people by being in the world instead of hiding from it. That’s our belief. Our particular schools are really good and better than most private schools.

We had to “pay” for 2 baptisms, convalidation and CCD. We taught CCD the following year and understand why all of this is in place noting that many of the parents did not take their children to mass like they promised. The envelopes is an attempt to keep people honest and monitor those that would take advantage of a good school, taking up a valued slot that usually gets filled quite quick. It’s a regulating mechanism someone thought of, probably a real micromananger person. I feel the same way you do about some of this, but it is the system. Parishes are like your city hall. I know, because I work at a city.

Give according to what you have prospered. That’s all anyone can require of you. That does not say give 10%. It may be 50% for others. For some it may be 0.01%. Give what you can, a dollar a week. Trust in God. your $1 is worth more than our $10 because we would be giving from our excess rather than our need. Talk to your pastor. If he doesn’t work with you, he’s pretty lame. You may want to consider attending another parish. But if it’s the school you’re after, then you have to take to good with the bad. We know someone that pulled their children fromthe Catholic schools to put them in our public schools. They are much happier. Many Catholic schools aren’t prepared to handle special needs children or the brightest children. By law public schools must provide programs for these particular groups.

Praying for you.

 

[zab]

The issue is, from my original statement, that the Church grants special favors to those who tithe weekly rather than on another frequency.

The Parish is the one who is tracking the envelopes not the school. The school is receiving the data from the Parish.

Some parishes subsidize the parish school. The parish school has an in-parish tuition rate for parish families because it is asumed that they contribute to the support of the parish so they give them a break in the amount of tuition. Use of the weekly envelope is proof of being in-parish to get the special rate.