C
CopticChristian
Guest
So it would be fair to say that they were not referencing the 1611 King James.
However that edition did have the deuterocanonicals!
- Status
However that edition did have the deuterocanonicals!
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Della
Guest
A really great little book and easy to read about the Bible is: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Rev. Henry G. Graham. He explains things quite well and charitably.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
I agree. It is a tragedy that as you might expect there is another book out there called “How we got the Bible”…by Niel Lightfoot. He is as you might expect Protestant. I have not read it however I am sure that it does not support the “Where we Got the Bible”.
I just asked for and recieved a book from the library that I have not read called…
"Why Catholic bibles are bigger : the untold story of the lost books of the Protestant bible "
Michuta, Gary G.
It would be great if everyone read everything but not everyone does.
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SteveVH
Guest
I’m just curious as to what you believe the following quote means:
"Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:23)
Jesus Christ gave incredible authority, his own authority, to his CHURCH. He gave the authority to bind and loose and to forgive sins (or not). Why in the world would Christ give his Church the authority to forgive sins if we were not suppose to confess our sins. How are they to be forgiven or retained if the Church does not know what they are?
Please remember that these are the words of Christ himself and are recorded in the Bible, which you apparently use as your sole source of faith. I think you need to do a little more study before you discuss this subject.
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pablope
Guest
S
SteveVH
Guest
S
suzyq_psu
Guest
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Phineas
Guest
Coptic,Phiny, Phiny…just take a moment. This is like the 2Timothy 3:16 that only verifies the Old Testament. Have a brief look here.
Paul goes on over to the synagogue and reads the Old Testament…OK
But, there is always a big But…But Paul then proclaims Christ after reading the Old Testament…
Acts 17
So everyone understands that Scripture speaks and everyone got it…Oh, Oh…looky here…
Some guys did not get it and after Paul expalined, not read, not appealed, but interpreted the OT…the Jews did not say Oh yeah the Scriptures…right there I see, yeah…Uh Uh…“one called Jesus”…they could not verify the Scriptures…what’s up here…
No look at what Paul says here…
2
Paul did not say “read”…he said “heard”
And since Scripture is so clear all you have to do is read it…wait…lets check with Paul one more time…Gasp…
It is possible to read it and not understand it…somehow the Jews could not see Jesus…so what this says is that the only way to understand what is written is to have it…are you holding your breath…are you waiting…the words are on your lips, they are in your heart…you don’t have to go up to heaven…yup…the only way to understand is to have it “interpreted”…Oh…Oh…don’t worry
Since it would be impossible to read the OT and see the Messiah as Jesus the only way to be noble was to accept Paul and his…sit down now…here it comes again…“interpretation”…based on his Apostolic Authority…not because they could extract the meaning on their own…Oh…Oh…imagine a plane going down in flames…on one wing is sola and the other is scriptura…
nice try
I think you are missing the thrust of Paul’s work in the synagogues He was not just going there to read the OT scriptures. Any Rabbi could do that . He was explaining the Gospel of Jesus Christ and relating it to the prophecies and teachings of the OT.
Of course what he was telling them was not written down. They were hearing it for the first time. It was new light for the seeking soul. But the Berians were more noble than most, and they knew that any new light from God would not contradict old light which had been revealed to their fathers through divine revelation and had been written into the scriptures which now constituted the OT.
The writings of the apostles did not contradict the law or the testimony of the OT (see Isa 8:20), and seeking men in the new Christian Church saw the inspiration of apostolic writings and collected them in a form called the New Testament. Both the Old and New Testaments make up a harmonious whole. The New Testament is an advancement and unfolding of the Old Testament. Both are part of God’s instruction for us
As Peter himself said" 2 Peter1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, …
Peter was explaining that the OT prophecies validate all he has heard and seen regarding Christ as the Messiah.
Coptic said “Since it would be impossible to read the OT and see the Messiah as Jesus the only way to be noble was to accept Paul and his…sit down now…here it comes again…“interpretation”…based on his Apostolic Authority…not because they could extract the meaning on their own…Oh…Oh…imagine a plane going down in flames…on one wing is sola and the other is scriptura.”
You err here on two counts First you do not appreciate fully the purpose of the scriptures. The only way a noble person could accept Paul’s oral word was to check with scripture to see if it was in harmony. Paul’s teachings did not violate or contradict scripture. They added to it and brought the hidden truths of the OT to light. The scriptures are a guide to keep us from accepting false doctrines. I say false doctrines, not new light Secondly you think sola scriptura means that if it is not in the Bible then it can’t be so. SC means you always compare new light, custom or doctrine with the admonitions, instructions and commandments written in the scriptures to see if they are in harmony.
When Paul and Barnabas told of the work they were doing among the Gentiles, and there was some grumbling among the Jews, James validated this work by reciting the words of the OT:
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
On the raod to Emmaus,Jesus validated His Messiahship by using OT scripture. This is another prime example of the use of SC, and by none other than the Lord Himself.
Luke24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
24:27 **And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
**
O
onemangang
Guest
First I would like to list the Old Testament Scripture by itself, and then afterwards cross reference it with New Testament Scripture so you may see a Prophesy fulfilled 250 years after it was written!
Much of this has been compiled by others via the internet. I merely compiled it, and condensed it
The New is in the Old concealed. The Old is in the New revealed. The New is in the Old contained. The Old is in the New explained…!
Wisdom 2:12: “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.13: He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.14: He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; 15: the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. 16: We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
17: Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
18: for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19: Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance.20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”
These particular prophecies mentioned above are only found in Wisdom Chapter 2.
If you do not have the book of Wisdom in your bible, after this study, you may ask yourself why not?
Let us go verse by verse. Let us start in Wisdom 2:12
**Wisdom 2:12 **"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
A righteous man will reproach the leaders and their training. Let us see how Jesus teaches on the matter.
**Matthew 23:23…27-28 **"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others”… Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
John 7:19-20 Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?"
Jesus, in Wisdom 2:12, is a righteous man, in fact perfectly righteous. He condemns the Scribes as lawbreakers. He calls them on hypocrisy. He ‘reproached them for their sins’, as in Matt. 23:27-28. He calls them lawbreakers. And he says that they will attempt to kill him…
Wisdom 2:12, also speaks of leaders lying in wait to get the righteous man.
We see that the chief priests and elders doing the following, Mt. 26:3-4:
Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Ca’iaphas, 4 and took counsel together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him.
Let us look next at Wisdom 2:13:
Wisdom 2:13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
John 8:55 But you have not known him (the Father); I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.
Jesus knows the Father in a unique fashion. He knows him better than his opponents. He also terms opponents as being the followers of their Father, the devil (Jn. 8:44). As Wisdom 2:13 shows, He claims to be a child of God, as he refers to His Father, . He refers to his Father quite often, as ‘My Father’ (See John 8:38, 49, 54, 10:19, 25, 29, etc.), signifying a special relationship with God the Father He calls himself a child of God, or the Son of God, John 3:18:
John 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Also see how He refers to himself as the Son of God in John 5:25
John 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Jesus calls himself the child of God, just as Wisdom 2:13 predicted.
Next, let us look at Wisdom 2:14:
Wisdom 2:14: He became to us a reproof of our thoughts.
Matthew 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Luke 6:7 And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find an accusation against him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come and stand here.” And he rose and stood there. 9 And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?” 10 And he looked around on them all, and said to him, “Stretch out your hand.” And he did so, and his hand was restored. 11 But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus.
Jesus read the thoughts of his opponents. And He reproofed them for those thoughts. And they reacted by plotting to destroy Jesus, just as it was prophesied in Wisdom 2:14
Cont…
Much of this has been compiled by others via the internet. I merely compiled it, and condensed it
The New is in the Old concealed. The Old is in the New revealed. The New is in the Old contained. The Old is in the New explained…!
Wisdom 2:12: “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.13: He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.14: He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; 15: the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. 16: We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
17: Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
18: for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19: Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance.20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”
These particular prophecies mentioned above are only found in Wisdom Chapter 2.
If you do not have the book of Wisdom in your bible, after this study, you may ask yourself why not?
Let us go verse by verse. Let us start in Wisdom 2:12
**Wisdom 2:12 **"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
A righteous man will reproach the leaders and their training. Let us see how Jesus teaches on the matter.
**Matthew 23:23…27-28 **"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others”… Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
John 7:19-20 Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?"
Jesus, in Wisdom 2:12, is a righteous man, in fact perfectly righteous. He condemns the Scribes as lawbreakers. He calls them on hypocrisy. He ‘reproached them for their sins’, as in Matt. 23:27-28. He calls them lawbreakers. And he says that they will attempt to kill him…
Wisdom 2:12, also speaks of leaders lying in wait to get the righteous man.
We see that the chief priests and elders doing the following, Mt. 26:3-4:
Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Ca’iaphas, 4 and took counsel together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him.
Let us look next at Wisdom 2:13:
Wisdom 2:13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
John 8:55 But you have not known him (the Father); I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.
Jesus knows the Father in a unique fashion. He knows him better than his opponents. He also terms opponents as being the followers of their Father, the devil (Jn. 8:44). As Wisdom 2:13 shows, He claims to be a child of God, as he refers to His Father, . He refers to his Father quite often, as ‘My Father’ (See John 8:38, 49, 54, 10:19, 25, 29, etc.), signifying a special relationship with God the Father He calls himself a child of God, or the Son of God, John 3:18:
John 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Also see how He refers to himself as the Son of God in John 5:25
John 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Jesus calls himself the child of God, just as Wisdom 2:13 predicted.
Next, let us look at Wisdom 2:14:
Wisdom 2:14: He became to us a reproof of our thoughts.
Matthew 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Luke 6:7 And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find an accusation against him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come and stand here.” And he rose and stood there. 9 And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?” 10 And he looked around on them all, and said to him, “Stretch out your hand.” And he did so, and his hand was restored. 11 But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus.
Jesus read the thoughts of his opponents. And He reproofed them for those thoughts. And they reacted by plotting to destroy Jesus, just as it was prophesied in Wisdom 2:14
Cont…
O
onemangang
Guest
Cont…
Let us take a look at the next verse, Wisdom 2:15:
Wisdom 2:15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
Matthew 15:1-6 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
As Wisdom 2:15 predicted, he does not go along with the Pharisees’ false tradition. They saw his activities as strange. He heals on the Sabbath, and that is ‘strange’ for them: Mark 3:1-6
**Mark 3:1 **Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come here.” 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero’di-ans against him, how to destroy him.
Again, they seek to destroy him, as mentioned in Wisdom 2:12. But they consider as strange that he would heal on the Sabbath.
**Luke 5:21-26
**Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?” 22 When Jesus perceived their questionings, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” --he said to the man who was paralyzed–“I say to you, rise, take up your bed and go home.” 25 And immediately he rose before them, and took up that on which he lay, and went home, glorifying God. 26 And amazement seized them all, and they glorified God and were filled with awe, saying, “We have seen strange things today.”
It was strange to the Pharisees that Jesus claimed the authority to forgive sins. And what the people witnessed was ‘strange’ for them. This is a fulfillment of Wisdom 2:15.
Let us look at look at Wisdom 2:16:
**Wisdom 2:16 **We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
Let us look go over each of those three features in this verse: So, the righteous man will consider his opponents evil, and avoids their way. He will call the righteous happy, and will call God his Father. I
**Luke 11:39 **And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of extortion and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you.
Matthew 5:12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.
3) Jesus calls God as his Father, just as Wisdom 2:16 predicted. So we see three ideas in this verse, Wisdom 2:16 fulfilled in the life of Christ in the gospel.
Cont…
Let us take a look at the next verse, Wisdom 2:15:
Wisdom 2:15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
Matthew 15:1-6 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
As Wisdom 2:15 predicted, he does not go along with the Pharisees’ false tradition. They saw his activities as strange. He heals on the Sabbath, and that is ‘strange’ for them: Mark 3:1-6
**Mark 3:1 **Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come here.” 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero’di-ans against him, how to destroy him.
Again, they seek to destroy him, as mentioned in Wisdom 2:12. But they consider as strange that he would heal on the Sabbath.
**Luke 5:21-26
**Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?” 22 When Jesus perceived their questionings, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 24 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” --he said to the man who was paralyzed–“I say to you, rise, take up your bed and go home.” 25 And immediately he rose before them, and took up that on which he lay, and went home, glorifying God. 26 And amazement seized them all, and they glorified God and were filled with awe, saying, “We have seen strange things today.”
It was strange to the Pharisees that Jesus claimed the authority to forgive sins. And what the people witnessed was ‘strange’ for them. This is a fulfillment of Wisdom 2:15.
Let us look at look at Wisdom 2:16:
**Wisdom 2:16 **We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
Let us look go over each of those three features in this verse: So, the righteous man will consider his opponents evil, and avoids their way. He will call the righteous happy, and will call God his Father. I
**Luke 11:39 **And the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of extortion and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you.
- We see in this passage that Jesus regards the Pharisees way as unclean, as they are hypocrites. Being full of extortion and wickedness, they are unclean. Jesus tells us to be clean by giving alms and being righteous. So Jesus tells people to avoid their ways, because they practice hypocrisy. This fits in with this Wisdom 2 prophecy. Let us look at part 2 of a fulfillment of Wisdom 2:16, Mt. 5
Matthew 5:12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.
- Jesus teaches that those who seek righteousness will be happy, as they will be in God’s kingdom, as predicted in Wisdom 2:16.
3) Jesus calls God as his Father, just as Wisdom 2:16 predicted. So we see three ideas in this verse, Wisdom 2:16 fulfilled in the life of Christ in the gospel.
Cont…
O
onemangang
Guest
Cont…
Let us look at the final passages of this section, Wisdom 2:17-20. They are best seen together.
Wisdom 2:17: Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18: for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19: Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
Now, let us compare that with the gospel. Now, in Matthew 27:41-43, we see the following:
Matthew 27:41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
**Wisdom 2:17 **says that they will see if his words are true, at the end of his life. Jesus opponents got the idea, if He was true, He would come down from the cross and Mt. 27:42 says, “we will believe him if he comes down from the cross”.
Wisdom 2:18 says if he really is God’s Son, God will deliver him. Mt. 27:43 says if he is God’s Son, he will deliver him.
Wisdom 2:19 says that he will be insulted. They mock him already in Mt. 27:43, and in a similar verse in Luke 23:35-37:
**Luke 23:35 **And the people stood by, watching; but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” 36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him vinegar, 37 and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”
They insult and scoff at him, just like predicted in Wisdom 2:19.
Finally, Wisdom 2:20 indicates that he will be put to death.
** Wisdom 2:20** Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
He is put to death on the cross, as though a common criminal. Two criminals die with him, one on his left, and one on his right.
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
We may see in why the book of Wisdom 2:12-20, was REMOVED from the Jewish Scriptures, because the Early Christians used the book of Wisdom to witness Christ to Jews!
**The Prophesies in Wisdom 2 were fulfilled in Christ Jesus in many ways, let’s review!
1.He was a righteous man
2.He knew God in a special way.
3.He was one who condemned the religious leaders of the day, those who sought secretly to trap Him
4.He called God as his Father.
5.He called them on their hypocrisy.
6.His ways were ‘strange’.
7.He read their thoughts.
8.He claimed to be God’s son.
9.He was mocked and tortured,
10.He was condemned to a shameful death as a common criminal,
11 He was taunted by his opponents.
These passages are fulfilled in so many ways in Jesus Christ. And only in Jesus Christ.**
**Wisdom 13 is also used by Paul in his writings in Romans 1.18-23. There are other allusions to Wisdom in other portions of the New Testament. Nonetheless, the prophecy in Wisdom 2 of the life and death of Jesus is a most powerful witness of that truth of who Jesus is.
Is the book of Wisdom in your bible? Maybe it should be!**
Let us look at the final passages of this section, Wisdom 2:17-20. They are best seen together.
Wisdom 2:17: Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18: for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19: Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
Now, let us compare that with the gospel. Now, in Matthew 27:41-43, we see the following:
Matthew 27:41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
**Wisdom 2:17 **says that they will see if his words are true, at the end of his life. Jesus opponents got the idea, if He was true, He would come down from the cross and Mt. 27:42 says, “we will believe him if he comes down from the cross”.
Wisdom 2:18 says if he really is God’s Son, God will deliver him. Mt. 27:43 says if he is God’s Son, he will deliver him.
Wisdom 2:19 says that he will be insulted. They mock him already in Mt. 27:43, and in a similar verse in Luke 23:35-37:
**Luke 23:35 **And the people stood by, watching; but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, “He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!” 36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him vinegar, 37 and saying, “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!”
They insult and scoff at him, just like predicted in Wisdom 2:19.
Finally, Wisdom 2:20 indicates that he will be put to death.
** Wisdom 2:20** Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
He is put to death on the cross, as though a common criminal. Two criminals die with him, one on his left, and one on his right.
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
We may see in why the book of Wisdom 2:12-20, was REMOVED from the Jewish Scriptures, because the Early Christians used the book of Wisdom to witness Christ to Jews!
**The Prophesies in Wisdom 2 were fulfilled in Christ Jesus in many ways, let’s review!
1.He was a righteous man
2.He knew God in a special way.
3.He was one who condemned the religious leaders of the day, those who sought secretly to trap Him
4.He called God as his Father.
5.He called them on their hypocrisy.
6.His ways were ‘strange’.
7.He read their thoughts.
8.He claimed to be God’s son.
9.He was mocked and tortured,
10.He was condemned to a shameful death as a common criminal,
11 He was taunted by his opponents.
These passages are fulfilled in so many ways in Jesus Christ. And only in Jesus Christ.**
**Wisdom 13 is also used by Paul in his writings in Romans 1.18-23. There are other allusions to Wisdom in other portions of the New Testament. Nonetheless, the prophecy in Wisdom 2 of the life and death of Jesus is a most powerful witness of that truth of who Jesus is.
Is the book of Wisdom in your bible? Maybe it should be!**
S
septimine
Guest
Well considering the facts of the doctrines in protestantism, I don’t think most of them have a leg to stand on. If Sola Scriptura is true, then why is it that Protestants who believe it are falling farther away from the faith of the original apostles? They deny Hell exists, they require stuff like altar calls, speaking in tongues, and so on. The whole thing is based on how you feel. You can believe anything you want, just so long as you had a “born again experience” – which means that essentially NO required doctrine. You could be an Arian or a Trinitarian or a Nestorian and STILL have that experience, which means that you are “saved” and who cares. The devil can fake an experience, but if it’s not based on the real Jesus, then so what? I mean I’m saved, I had the born again experience at 4, I had the altar call, I spoke in tongues, so how can you doubt my interpretation of the Bible that says that you’re supposed to follow Jewish Law, or that Jesus was just a man?
At least the Catholic church requires the person to follow the historical Christian faith.
At least the Catholic church requires the person to follow the historical Christian faith.
O
onemangang
Guest
Baruch 4:6 You were sold to the nations, but not for extermination. You provoked God; and so were delivered to your enemies,7 since you had angered your Creator by offering sacrifices to demons, and not to God.8 You had forgotten the eternal God who reared you. You had also grieved Jerusalem who nursed you,
1 Corinthians 10:20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
Wisdom 15:7 The potter also tempering soft earth, with labour fashions every vessel for our service, and of the same clay he makes both vessels that are for clean uses, and likewise such as serve to the contrary: but what is the use of these vessels, the potter is the judge
**Romans 9:19 ** You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
**Sirach 35:12 ** for the Lord is a judge who is utterly impartial.
Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Wisdom 13:10 But wretched are they, with their hopes set on dead things, who have given the title of gods to human artefacts, gold or silver, skilfully worked, figures of animals, or useless stone,carved by some hand long ago
Acts 17:29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Sirach 10:14 The Lord has turned mighty princes off their thrones and seated the humble there instead.
Luke 1:52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
Wisdom 2:16 In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.
John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Judith 16:17 Woe to the nations who rise against my race! The Lord Almighty will punish them on judgement day. Hewill send fire and worms in their flesh and they will weep with pain for evermore.
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
Wisdom 2:13 He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. 17 Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. [18] For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies.
**Matthew 27:42 **“He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’
**Sirach 29:14 ** Place thy treasure in the commandments of the most High, and it shall bring thee more profit than gold
Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
**Wisdom 4:5 ** For the branches not being perfect, shall be broken, and their fruits shall be unprofitable, and sour to eat, and fit for nothing
**John 15:5 **“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Tobit 4:16 See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.
Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Tobit 12 :15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
**Revelation 1:4 **John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Tobit 12:12 So you must know that when you and Sarah were at prayer, it was I who offered your supplications before the glory of the Lord and who read them; so too when you were burying the dead.15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
Revelation 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
1 Corinthians 10:20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
Wisdom 15:7 The potter also tempering soft earth, with labour fashions every vessel for our service, and of the same clay he makes both vessels that are for clean uses, and likewise such as serve to the contrary: but what is the use of these vessels, the potter is the judge
**Romans 9:19 ** You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
**Sirach 35:12 ** for the Lord is a judge who is utterly impartial.
Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Wisdom 13:10 But wretched are they, with their hopes set on dead things, who have given the title of gods to human artefacts, gold or silver, skilfully worked, figures of animals, or useless stone,carved by some hand long ago
Acts 17:29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Sirach 10:14 The Lord has turned mighty princes off their thrones and seated the humble there instead.
Luke 1:52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
Wisdom 2:16 In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.
John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Judith 16:17 Woe to the nations who rise against my race! The Lord Almighty will punish them on judgement day. Hewill send fire and worms in their flesh and they will weep with pain for evermore.
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
Wisdom 2:13 He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. 17 Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. [18] For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies.
**Matthew 27:42 **“He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’
**Sirach 29:14 ** Place thy treasure in the commandments of the most High, and it shall bring thee more profit than gold
Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
**Wisdom 4:5 ** For the branches not being perfect, shall be broken, and their fruits shall be unprofitable, and sour to eat, and fit for nothing
**John 15:5 **“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Tobit 4:16 See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.
Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Tobit 12 :15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
**Revelation 1:4 **John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Tobit 12:12 So you must know that when you and Sarah were at prayer, it was I who offered your supplications before the glory of the Lord and who read them; so too when you were burying the dead.15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
Revelation 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
O
onemangang
Guest
Cont…
Sirach 16:13 According as his mercy is, so his correction judges a man according to his works.
**1 Peter 1:17 ** And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;
**Wisdom 3:5 **Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God has tried them, and found them worthy of himself. 6 As gold in the furnace, he has proved them, and as a victim of aholocaust, he has received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.
1 Peter 1:6 Wherein you shall greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: 7That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
**Sirach 24:25 ** In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
**John 14:6 **Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Sirach 24:26 Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. 27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. 28 My memory is unto everlasting generations.
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
**John 15:5 **“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Sirach 24: 29 They that eat me, shall yet hunger: and they that drink me, shall yet thirst. 30 He that hearkens to me, shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. 31 They that explain me shall have life everlasting.
**John 6:53 **Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
2 Maccabees 12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by hisbelief in the resurrection.
44 For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
1Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
Sirach 27:6 Be the dressing of a tree sheweth the fruit thereof, so a word out of the thought of the heart of man.
Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Wisdom 9:13 For who amongmen is he that can know the counsel of God? Or who can think what the will of God is?
1 Corinthians 2:16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Judith 11:15 And he will tell me when he will repay them for their sins, and I will come and tell thee, so that I may bring thee through the midst of Jerusalem, and thou shalt have all the people of Israel, as sheep that have no shepherd, and there shall not so much as one dog bark against thee:
Matthew 9 :36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
1 Maccabees 4:59 Judas, with his brothers and the whole assembly of Israel, made it a law that the days of the dedication of the altar should be celebrated yearly at the proper season, for eight days beginning on the twenty-fifth of the month of Chislev, with rejoicing and gladness.
John 10:22 Then came the Festival of Dedication** at Jerusalem. It was winter,
Cont…**
Sirach 16:13 According as his mercy is, so his correction judges a man according to his works.
**1 Peter 1:17 ** And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;
**Wisdom 3:5 **Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God has tried them, and found them worthy of himself. 6 As gold in the furnace, he has proved them, and as a victim of aholocaust, he has received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.
1 Peter 1:6 Wherein you shall greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: 7That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
**Sirach 24:25 ** In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
**John 14:6 **Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Sirach 24:26 Come over to me, all you that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. 27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. 28 My memory is unto everlasting generations.
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
**John 15:5 **“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Sirach 24: 29 They that eat me, shall yet hunger: and they that drink me, shall yet thirst. 30 He that hearkens to me, shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin. 31 They that explain me shall have life everlasting.
**John 6:53 **Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
2 Maccabees 12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by hisbelief in the resurrection.
44 For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
1Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
Sirach 27:6 Be the dressing of a tree sheweth the fruit thereof, so a word out of the thought of the heart of man.
Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Wisdom 9:13 For who amongmen is he that can know the counsel of God? Or who can think what the will of God is?
1 Corinthians 2:16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Judith 11:15 And he will tell me when he will repay them for their sins, and I will come and tell thee, so that I may bring thee through the midst of Jerusalem, and thou shalt have all the people of Israel, as sheep that have no shepherd, and there shall not so much as one dog bark against thee:
Matthew 9 :36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
1 Maccabees 4:59 Judas, with his brothers and the whole assembly of Israel, made it a law that the days of the dedication of the altar should be celebrated yearly at the proper season, for eight days beginning on the twenty-fifth of the month of Chislev, with rejoicing and gladness.
John 10:22 Then came the Festival of Dedication** at Jerusalem. It was winter,
Cont…**
O
onemangang
Guest
Cont…
Compare to St. Paul’s discourse in **Romans Chapter 1 **
**Wisdom 13:1 **
1 Yes, naturally stupid are all who are unaware of God, and who, from good things seen, have not been able to discover Him-who-is, or, by studying the works, have not recognised the Artificer.
2 Fire, however, or wind, or the swift air, the sphere of the stars, impetuous water, heaven’s lamps, are what they have held to be the gods who govern the world.
3 If, charmed by their beauty, they have taken these for gods, let them know how much the Master of these excels them, since he was the very source of beauty that created them.
4 And if they have been impressed by their power and energy, let them deduce from these how much mightier is he that has formed them,
5 since through the grandeur and beauty of the creatures we may, by analogy, contemplate their Author.
6 Small blame, however, attaches to them, for perhaps they go astray only in their search for God and their eagerness to find him;
7 familiar with his works, they investigate them and fall victim to appearances, seeing so much beauty.
8 But even so, they have no excuse:
9 if they are capable of acquiring enough knowledge to be able to investigate the world, how have they been so slow to find its Master?
10 But wretched are they, with their hopes set on dead things, who have given the title of gods to human artefacts, gold or silver, skilfully worked, figures of animals, or useless stone, carved by some hand long ago.
**Romans 1:18 **
18 The retribution of God from heaven is being revealed against the ungodliness and injustice of human beings who in their injustice hold back the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is perfectly plain to them, since God has made it plain to them:
20 ever since the creation of the world, the invisible existence of God and his everlasting power have been clearly seen by the mind’s understanding of created things. And so these people have no excuse:
21 they knew God and yet they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but their arguments became futile and their uncomprehending minds were darkened.
22 While they claimed to be wise, in fact they were growing so stupid
23 that they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an imitation, for the image of a mortal human being, or of birds, or animals, or crawling things.
24 That is why God abandoned them in their inmost cravings to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies-
25 because they exchanged God’s truth for a lie and have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 That is why God abandoned them to degrading passions:
27 why their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural practices; and the men, in a similar fashion, too, giving up normal relations with women, are consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameful things with men and receiving in themselves due reward for their perversion.
28 In other words, since they would not consent to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to their unacceptable thoughts and indecent behaviour.
29 And so now they are steeped in all sorts of injustice, rottenness, greed and malice; full of envy, murder, wrangling, treachery and spite,
30 libellers, slanderers, enemies of God, rude, arrogant and boastful, enterprising in evil, rebellious to parents,
31 without brains, honour, love or pity.
32 They are well aware of God’s ordinance: that those who behave like this deserve to die – yet they not only do it, but even applaud others who do the same.
Wisdom 14:22
22 It is not enough, however, for them to have such misconceptions about God; for, living in the fierce warfare of ignorance, they call these terrible evils peace.
23 With their child-murdering rites, their occult mysteries, or their frenzied orgies with outlandish customs,
24 they no longer retain any purity in their lives or their marriages, one treacherously murdering another or wronging him by adultery.
25 Everywhere a welter of blood and murder, theft and fraud, corruption, treachery, riot, perjury,
26 disturbance of decent people, forgetfulness of favours, pollution of souls, sins against nature, disorder in marriage, adultery and debauchery.
27 For the worship of idols with no name is the beginning, cause, and end of every evil.
Compare to St. Paul’s discourse in **Romans Chapter 1 **
**Wisdom 13:1 **
1 Yes, naturally stupid are all who are unaware of God, and who, from good things seen, have not been able to discover Him-who-is, or, by studying the works, have not recognised the Artificer.
2 Fire, however, or wind, or the swift air, the sphere of the stars, impetuous water, heaven’s lamps, are what they have held to be the gods who govern the world.
3 If, charmed by their beauty, they have taken these for gods, let them know how much the Master of these excels them, since he was the very source of beauty that created them.
4 And if they have been impressed by their power and energy, let them deduce from these how much mightier is he that has formed them,
5 since through the grandeur and beauty of the creatures we may, by analogy, contemplate their Author.
6 Small blame, however, attaches to them, for perhaps they go astray only in their search for God and their eagerness to find him;
7 familiar with his works, they investigate them and fall victim to appearances, seeing so much beauty.
8 But even so, they have no excuse:
9 if they are capable of acquiring enough knowledge to be able to investigate the world, how have they been so slow to find its Master?
10 But wretched are they, with their hopes set on dead things, who have given the title of gods to human artefacts, gold or silver, skilfully worked, figures of animals, or useless stone, carved by some hand long ago.
**Romans 1:18 **
18 The retribution of God from heaven is being revealed against the ungodliness and injustice of human beings who in their injustice hold back the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is perfectly plain to them, since God has made it plain to them:
20 ever since the creation of the world, the invisible existence of God and his everlasting power have been clearly seen by the mind’s understanding of created things. And so these people have no excuse:
21 they knew God and yet they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but their arguments became futile and their uncomprehending minds were darkened.
22 While they claimed to be wise, in fact they were growing so stupid
23 that they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an imitation, for the image of a mortal human being, or of birds, or animals, or crawling things.
24 That is why God abandoned them in their inmost cravings to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies-
25 because they exchanged God’s truth for a lie and have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 That is why God abandoned them to degrading passions:
27 why their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural practices; and the men, in a similar fashion, too, giving up normal relations with women, are consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameful things with men and receiving in themselves due reward for their perversion.
28 In other words, since they would not consent to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to their unacceptable thoughts and indecent behaviour.
29 And so now they are steeped in all sorts of injustice, rottenness, greed and malice; full of envy, murder, wrangling, treachery and spite,
30 libellers, slanderers, enemies of God, rude, arrogant and boastful, enterprising in evil, rebellious to parents,
31 without brains, honour, love or pity.
32 They are well aware of God’s ordinance: that those who behave like this deserve to die – yet they not only do it, but even applaud others who do the same.
Wisdom 14:22
22 It is not enough, however, for them to have such misconceptions about God; for, living in the fierce warfare of ignorance, they call these terrible evils peace.
23 With their child-murdering rites, their occult mysteries, or their frenzied orgies with outlandish customs,
24 they no longer retain any purity in their lives or their marriages, one treacherously murdering another or wronging him by adultery.
25 Everywhere a welter of blood and murder, theft and fraud, corruption, treachery, riot, perjury,
26 disturbance of decent people, forgetfulness of favours, pollution of souls, sins against nature, disorder in marriage, adultery and debauchery.
27 For the worship of idols with no name is the beginning, cause, and end of every evil.
O
onemangang
Guest
What books made up the Old Testament during the time of the Acts of the Apostles?
Was the OT canon established at that time?
What OT books are you referring to? The OT canon was not established yet, so shouldn’t that be addressed?
Sounds like you are presupposing an already **compiled **canon that did not exist yet!
You mean in council conducted by the Catholic Church and by seeking men, you mean Bishops right?
Pope Damasus I’s Council of Rome in 382
The Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (AD 393)
And The Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419.
What, like the Old testament Prophesy of Christ like in Wisdom 2?
Seems hard to build a case for Sola Scriptura in protestantism, when almost all lack a complete compiled set of Scriptures
I’ll let Coptic Answer this, since Coptic is being addressed!
You mean the Council in which after Pharisees Stood up, Peter stood up to address them, which was profound in that culture BTW. Peter stood up speaks volumes if you have ears to hear!
OK, if Sola Scriptura was true back then, maybe we should look at what OT books back then, were considered canon of Scripture, wouldn’t you think?
Good luck proving Sola Scriptura when there wasn’t a Compiled canon of Scripture yet!
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Phinny,
I error? May I suggest that what you may want to say is that we disagree.
What you outline here is the Catholic Position on Scripture and what the Bible teaches…the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth through which the manifold wisdom of God is known…
I suggest you compare and contrast what you have outlined…with…
Lord’s supper…Lutheran, Methodist…Baptist points of view…Is it your suggestion that all the disagreement is what you call harmony?
Baptism…Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist…etc points of view. …Is it your suggestion that all the disagreement is what you call harmony?
Bible with deuterocanonicals…Harmony?
disagreements amongst Protestant ecclesial bodies…??? based on what you say…I don’t hear Harmony…I hear the sputter of a plane, the engine chugging, the soaring to the ground and the word that comes to mind is cacaphony. Now, I am no expert in music and some people do see and hear things differently.
Provide for me what you see as what you call harmony in the disagreements of Protestant thought based on your explanation. Correlate this to Bible I read…pillar and foundation of truth, mystery hidden for all ages through which the manifold wisdom of God is known…the Church…the Bible speaks of a Church. You have some notion of a Church…the Bible teaches this. Jesus love me this I know…for the Bilble tells me so…little ones that go to Church…know that God teaches truth…Yes…you know the rest…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
M
MotoCatholic
Guest
I’m no Biblical/Scripture expert. I often find myself in discussions like this, I don’t have a tip-of-the tongue answer, and I have to go study and learn. So that being said, here’s my response: With virtually on exceptions to this observation, my protestant friends simply and sometimes vehemently dislike the Catholic Church. Therefore, anything the Church teaches, any of the scriptural sources for the magestarium, any of the scriptural sources for the Sacraments…anything Catholic is seen by them as wrong, bogus, and a fiction made up by “The Church.” They seem to distinctly despise the premise that anything the Church teaches is actually rooted in scripture. And on this point otherwise intelligent, caring people become overwhelmed by bias and intellectually paralyzed.
Here’s what I consider the important point: while they reject anything the Catholic Church has ever done in terms of interpreting scripture (and I love the point made that the Catholic Church also believes in sola scriptua!), they take great pride in there own individual interpretations of scripture. And when I make a comment about this leading them down the road of thousands of protestant denominations and churches that all think they have it right, and everyone else is wrong, they just seem to get backed into the corner of "well the Catholic Church is definitely wrong. When I try to respectfully say something like “I would suggest you read document x/y/z from the Catholic Magestarium on this topic…if you want I’ll point you in the direction of many other resources…please try to research this with an open mind and open heart…” they often just look at me like I’m trying to give them pamphlets from the devil. And they really don’t like when I then respectfully say that I appreciate their position, I will consider what they have said, but in areas where I’m not sure or lacking knowledge, I’m going to defer to the teaching authority, history, and theological depth of the Catholic Church - not “Joe’s interpretation of John 3:10, Susan’s interpretation of Luke, Bill’s thoughts on the lunacy of the Catholic Sacrament of reconcilliation…” They just don’t seem to realize, or won’t admit, that they’re commiting, and recommiting, and re-re commiting the same sin of interpretation that they accuse the Catholic Church of. It’s a truly amazing exercise in intellectual pretzel-making.
This being said, some of the protestant friends that I speak of are the most lovely, loving, Christian people that I know. They would be amazing Catholics - some of the best we could have. I often imagine what we could do for the world if we were all on the same page.
Hope this long post helps!
Here’s what I consider the important point: while they reject anything the Catholic Church has ever done in terms of interpreting scripture (and I love the point made that the Catholic Church also believes in sola scriptua!), they take great pride in there own individual interpretations of scripture. And when I make a comment about this leading them down the road of thousands of protestant denominations and churches that all think they have it right, and everyone else is wrong, they just seem to get backed into the corner of "well the Catholic Church is definitely wrong. When I try to respectfully say something like “I would suggest you read document x/y/z from the Catholic Magestarium on this topic…if you want I’ll point you in the direction of many other resources…please try to research this with an open mind and open heart…” they often just look at me like I’m trying to give them pamphlets from the devil. And they really don’t like when I then respectfully say that I appreciate their position, I will consider what they have said, but in areas where I’m not sure or lacking knowledge, I’m going to defer to the teaching authority, history, and theological depth of the Catholic Church - not “Joe’s interpretation of John 3:10, Susan’s interpretation of Luke, Bill’s thoughts on the lunacy of the Catholic Sacrament of reconcilliation…” They just don’t seem to realize, or won’t admit, that they’re commiting, and recommiting, and re-re commiting the same sin of interpretation that they accuse the Catholic Church of. It’s a truly amazing exercise in intellectual pretzel-making.
This being said, some of the protestant friends that I speak of are the most lovely, loving, Christian people that I know. They would be amazing Catholics - some of the best we could have. I often imagine what we could do for the world if we were all on the same page.
Hope this long post helps!
S
suzyq_psu
Guest
Moto I am going to have to second what you just said. I feel like Catholics (including myself) have gotten so far away from what their faith really is that most can’t compare as far as memorization of scripture. What I have come to find though in my new studies is that it is SO mysterious and rich and full that it would honestly just be crazy for me to try and interpret my own meaning from it. I am really liking the Agape bible study. It opens up a whole new world for me. It also makes more sense. God is the Master Designer and he uses things like numbers and parables and prophecy to show us things. If we just took it literally it sounds like a bunch of nonsense, but when you add in the mysteries, prophecies, reasons for the numbers, sequences, etc. It all makes sense how it is masterfully designed. I can’t get the “mystery” of it all when I go to a non-denominational church, although I DO get the LOVE and the feel good, I don’t get the power and the glory and the mystery that I have gotten with the Catholic Church. I’ve been praying for a sign…thanks for the book recommendation 10 prayers God always says yes to. On the way to an interview my husband drove through the end of a double rainbow. It just ended right there on the highway:thumbsup:
I will say though that I am thankful that he redeems us ALL always amidst our transgressions.
Love you all, and thank you.
I will say though that I am thankful that he redeems us ALL always amidst our transgressions.
Love you all, and thank you.
- Status