Please help refute this....Sola scripture vs Roman Catholicism

[CopticChristian]

Nicea 325 said,* “If you are accusing the CC of not following the 10 Commandments,then it must mean you also follow of the OT laws and dietary laws-right? Do you still circumcise as the OT law requried? You cannot have it both ways”*

What in the world are you saying? Do you actually mean that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross along with the 'handwriting of ordinances" which were the ceremonial laws? If so, then murder , theft and adultery are no longer sins in the Catholic Church?

We are talking about the Sabbath as a commandment of God written by His finger on stone just as the other nine commandments. You and others are trying to treat the Sabbath differently then the other nine commandments. You cannot do this without violating the express commands of the head of the Christian Church, Jesus Christ,

In His disputes with the Scribes and Pharisees He was bringing the Sabbath back to its original purpose and removing the onerous traditions that the Jewish leaders had burdened it. He made it honorable again and a delight.

You guys are all over the place in your arguing against the words of Christ… Sunday is not the Lord’s Day, for Jesus said the Sabbath was the Lord’s Day (Matt 12:8 and Mark 2:28). You are all trying to justify Sunday keeping and Sabbath breaking. You cannot do it without first rejecting the express will of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ

Please let us stop the quoting of learned church fathers, sacred traditions and decrees of councils and go see what the head of the Christian Church says, for He is the final authority.

Jesus said:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:21 He that** hath my commandments, and keepeth them**, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Psm 111:7 The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure.
111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.

It is fine to have a church to attend, be it Catholic or Protestant; but our first loyalty is to Jesus and we should never let church doctrine trump the express will of our Lord and Savior. Our first duty is always to God and His Son.

“Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto men more than unto God, judge ye.”

Note; God called the Sabbath **“My Holy Day” **.(Isa 58:13) It was his day which he blessed, sanctified, and put in the heart of the ten commandments… Can anyone show me where God removed the Sabbath command, unblessed and unsanctified the 7th day and put Sunday in its place? Can anyone show me from scripture where Jesus changed His mind and became Lord of Sunday instead of the Sabbath.?

Phineas,

You have made it clear that you believe that the Sabbath should be Saturday. You in fact made it clear that this is an eggregious and among the 3 most eggregious errors. You have pointed to errors in Catholic Tradition and Protestant tradition…so then I have two questions for you…

You are designated Protestant and you are shouting “Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Saturday”…kind of reminds me of Elton John…anyway back to the thread…

1. Changing the Sabbath of the Lord from Saturday to Sunday; a command written in stone by God
   7…Completely removing the second of the 10 commandments written by the finger of God in stone.
2. Splitting the 1oth commandment into 2 separate parts to retain 10 commandments in number.

The last three are the most egregious and outrageous, But when you do not believe in sola scriptura and think the Berians were heretic and not noble as the Bible described them, then this is what Satan will bring into Christianity.

The first question is this. I go to Church/Mass on Saturday…Is that OK?

Secondly, what do you think of Ellen White?

 

[JonNC]

The first question is this. I go to Church/Mass on Saturday…Is that OK?

Is it after sundown?

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

Is it after sundown?

Jon

Jon,

I gotta be honest with you. During the summer the answer is no. During the winter the answer it is sundown when I leave, so 50/50…

By the way that was only part of the question!

 

[Reuben_J]

Note; God called the Sabbath **“My Holy Day” **.(Isa 58:13) It was his day which he blessed, sanctified, and put in the heart of the ten commandments… Can anyone show me where God removed the Sabbath command, unblessed and unsanctified the 7th day and put Sunday in its place? Can anyone show me from scripture where Jesus changed His mind and became Lord of Sunday instead of the Sabbath.?

First of all we are Christians, we are not Jews. Sabbath is the thing of the past. Even Jesus did not keep it; that should tell us much about it.

What do you do on Sabbath? Exodus says (16:23) - He said to them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

Do Christians do this today? Do we not even cook and boil our food on Sabbath? No, no Christians do that today because this is Jewish custom.

But Christians do rest and worship one day a week and that’s the Lord’s day – Sunday. It’s is the day of the Lord’s resurrection or the Eighth day.

Why do we worship on the Lord’s day? Because we want to keep that day holy, because we want to celebrate the Paschal mystery. I don’t know about you, but as Catholics, by the Paschal mystery, that is the suffering, death and resurrection of our Lord, we are saved. What is more important than the Lord’s suffering, death and resurrection and us being saved?

Therefore to us, every Sunday is Easter, and the Church must honor it, and celebrate it.

God bless.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

I gotta be honest with you. During the summer the answer is no. During the winter the answer it is sundown when I leave, so 50/50…

By the way that was only part of the question!

Hi Coptic,
I suspect, and I am certain Phineas will inform us, it would matter to him, and I would think most sabbatarians.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

A new article came out on www.calledtocommunion.com that discusses the paradigms of Sola Scriptura and how Catholicism doesn’t fit in with these paradigms or their consequences…

 

[Phineas]

There is a lot misunderstanding in the Christian world in general, and in this thread in particular, about the Law of Moses (Mosaic Law). If we would read our Bibles carefully we would see that the ten commandments of God are not part of the Law of Moses.

Let the bible speak for itself:

Two Laws —Law of God (Ten Commandments) and the Law of Moses (Mosaic Law)
Moral Law Written by God-
Ex 31:18, “And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.”.

God spoke the moral law to the people;
Deut 4:36; 5:22, “Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: …These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly …, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.” (Ex 20:1,2 & 17-19: Deut 10:15)

Law of Moses
Moses wrote the Mosaic Law:
Deut 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, … (Ex 33:9 , Lev. 1:1,2 and Chron. 35:12.)

God spoke the Mosaic law only to Moses, (Ex 33:9,)
**
What God Commanded and What Moses Commanded**
Deut 4:13-14, "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments…

2 Kings 21:8… only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them."
**

Law of God and Law of Moses delineated **
Daniel 9:11, “Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.”
**
Ten Commandments and Law of Moses Physically Separated**
The Ten Commandments
Ex 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark,
Ex 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
**
The ceremonial law,**
Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The Mosaic law (handwriting of ordinances) was nailed to the cross upon Christ’s death. (Col. 2:14, Eph 2:14-15 and Dan. 9:27): but the moral law was to last forever. (Ps. 111: 7,8 ; Math 5:18 and Rom 3:31 )

The Sabbath is in the heart of the ten commandments and it is gross error to say the Sabbath Commandment was for the Jews alone, as it would be to say any of the other nine commandments were for the Jews only.

To willfully break any of the commandments of God is sin, no matter what the majority believe or teach.

The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of church councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “What does the Bible say” (sola scriptura) in its support .

 

[Lost_and_Found_1]

Where does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura?

 

[ahs]

The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of church councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “What does the Bible say” (sola scriptura) in its support .

Do you not think that “all the opinions of learned men” who seek Truth are a result of their taking this “What does the Bible say (sola scriptura)” approach? How many Christian denominations, each with different teachings, have relied on sola scriptura? And which of these is right? Christ prayed there be only One Church…so they can’t all be right (at least not fully so). They rely on sola scriptura and yet arrive at different conclusions as to what Scripture is REALLY saying.

Tell me, what does the Bible have to say about the traditions handed down orally by the Apostles?

What does the Bible have to say about whether or not every teaching is actually written in Scripture?

Using the OT alone (since it’s all that existed before Christ), please reconstruct the OT process of offering a sin offering…tell us what that part of the Bible has to say about such.

The evidence of the never-ending splintering of Christian denominations is proof that we should not demand, “what does the Bible have to say about [this] teaching”…but rather, “what does the Church that Christ establish teach about what is contained in the Bible”.

Where does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura?

Bingo. And for that matter, where does the Bible tell us how to resolve conflicts of understanding about what the Bible is saying?

 

[pablope]

There is a lot misunderstanding in the Christian world in general, and in this thread in particular, about the Law of Moses (Mosaic Law). If we would read our Bibles carefully we would see that the ten commandments of God are not part of the Law of Moses.

The Mosaic law (handwriting of ordinances) was nailed to the cross upon Christ’s death. (Col. 2:14, Eph 2:14-15 and Dan. 9:27): but the moral law was to last forever. (Ps. 111: 7,8 ; Math 5:18 and Rom 3:31 )

 

[stevekehl]

If you were stranded on an island, with only the Scriptures, could you come to a saving knowledge of Jesus message? If you only had access to the Scriptures could you become a Christian? I say yes.

 

[Lost_and_Found_1]

It seems strange to say we should only believe what the Bible teaches yet the Bible doesn’t teach us to only believe what the Bible teaches.

Kinda like cutting off the branch you’re sitting on.

1 Timothy 3:15 But, if I am delayed, you should know the manner in which it is necessary to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth.

 

[KathleenGee]

If you were on a deserted island and came to God through a Bible placed there…yes you can…but then the next question is…who put the bible together?..it depends on the person…who what why how…

And people can come to God through reason and reflecting on God in nature…without the Bible…but it needs someone to define Him…so relate to text…others to the witness of devout Christian…or doctrine of faith and practice…the form of worship…

How we come to faith is bigger than one way…so, no I cannot depend on just Sola Scriptura to find the truth about God…

 

[gcharles]

This information comes from “THE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE IN THE CHURCH” as written by the Pontifical Biblical Commission presented on March 18,1994. It is stated by this commission, “The church, indeed, does not regard the Bible simply a collection of historical documents dealing with its own origins; it receives the Bible as word of God, addressed both to itself and to the entire world at the present time.” Please notice that they are stating there are no errors in the Bible and it is a historical document. From the earliest days of the church, the reading of Scripture has been an integral part of the Christian liturgy, an inheritance to some extent from the liturgy of the synagogue. Concern for regular, even daily reading of Scripture reflects the early church culture.

There is a statement concerning actualization. I always sense that if I don’t clearly understanding the meaning of the word I should pass it on to the reader. Actualization-already in the Bible such as early texts have been reread in the light of new circumstances and applied to the contemporary situation of the people of God. It is the achievement of full potential through creativity leading to a grasp of the real world. Actualization, therefore, cannot mean manipulation of the text. The text of the Bible authority over the Christian church at all times, and although centuries have passed since the time of the composition, the text remains its role of privileged not open to manipulation. In the process of actualization it provides protection it provides protection against deviant interpretations.
In using hermeneutics the church takes a three step method. The first step is to hear the word from within one’s own concrete situation. Second is to identify the aspects of the present situation highlighted or put to question by the biblical text. Finally, it is to draw the fullness of the meaning contained in the biblical text those elements capable of advancing the present situation in a way that is productive and consonant with the saving will of God in Christ.

Exegetes may have a distinctive role in the interpretation of the Bible but they do not exercise a monopoly This activity within the church has aspects which go beyond the academic analysis of the text. The definition of exegesis is critical explanation or interpretation or analysis to interpret a passage in the Bible such as understanding customs at the time of the writings.

As you can see the Bible cannot be manipulated. That does not mean it can’t be furthur enforced or made clearer by tradition or writings of the early church fathers.

 

[KathleenGee]

gcharles…

Welcome and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Yes, Sacred Scriptures records history, and we are reading from time to time archaeological discoveries that continue to validate the truthfulness of Scriptures and the history of salvation of people.

Every phrase, part of Scripture is in context to its whole…all is working in Scripture to bring us to the Savior, Salvation, Redemption…so that to the reality that Scripture is the Living Word of God…Living…not an instrument to break down in to parts and turn people against each other.

Interpretations that turn people of faith against each other is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit and of Sacred Scripture. The Word is as Living Waters that travel deep down into the roots of the soul.

Scripture ends at Revelations that describe the new founding churches. After that comes the great testimony of Jesus Christ…the testimony of lives lived out in the Church, just as we studied the ancient just and reprobates of the Old Testament.

Scripture walks hand in hand with the tradition of the Church…understanding the Word in the way of the Holy Apostles through the Holy Spirit.

Every phrase in the Old Testament is fulfilled and realized in the Covenant of the Blood of Jesus Christ…nothing ends but is completed and fulfilled in Him, including Sacred Time.

As stated before, we universal Christians are ecclesial deists…We believe Christ is truly God and can do anything…and decide to have carnal men be His ministers to administrate and provide Him to us in the Word and Sacraments. We worship the Resurrected and Glorified Lord Who stands at the altar in heaven…thus fulfilling the daily Perfect Sacrificed prophesized by Melchizedek, the Passover, and the Day of Atonement.

The 12 apostles represented the 12 tribes of Israel as well as the perfection of the Church, the universality of faith in His Church…thus it was most important the place of Judas Iscariot be refilled…and they could only do it through lots…mystery…the hand of God Himself deciding and not men.

 

[stevekehl]

If you were on a deserted island and came to God through a Bible placed there…yes you can…but then the next question is…who put the bible together?..it depends on the person…who what why how…

And people can come to God through reason and reflecting on God in nature…without the Bible…but it needs someone to define Him…so relate to text…others to the witness of devout Christian…or doctrine of faith and practice…the form of worship…

How we come to faith is bigger than one way…so, no I cannot depend on just Sola Scriptura to find the truth about God…

If you can come to a salvation with just a Bible on this deserted island then the rest of what you said doesn’t matter. Do you honestly believe men compiled Scripture? God, who inspired the writing, also controlled when and what went into the Bible, including the Apocryphal books. We all come to faith one way, by being obedient to God’s call.

 

[ahs]

If you can come to a salvation with just a Bible on this deserted island then the rest of what you said doesn’t matter. Do you honestly believe men compiled Scripture? God, who inspired the writing, also controlled when and what went into the Bible, including the Apocryphal books. We all come to faith one way, by being obedient to God’s call.

But what’s that got to do with sola scriptura as applied in reality? In the fantasy situtaion, the person all alone could be saved, sure. But if there are others there with him and he sees that Scripture says to proclaim the Gospel, he can quickly much things up by proclaiming a false Gospel.

For example, let’s take the same guy on the same island, and now he decides to proclaim the Word. He notices in the Bible that Scripture seems to simultaneously imply that he can lose his salvation and that he can’t. Using only the Bible, how does he come to the correct conclusion?

To quote another poster on another forum: “This is not an occasion where you throw me verses that show that I can either lose my salvation or not. You all must obviously know that there are two competing views. Using Sola Scriptura, show me how to resolve this conundrum.” (Obiectivum, Christian Website forum)

 

[cath4alltime]

Where does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura?

No where, it’s a praxis not a doctrine.

 

[KathleenGee]

We are crossing over each other’s head, Stephen.

I would want to know who put the Bible together.

God does not have a printing press down here. So who put it together, who decided the books, were there others? Who has the authority???

It is about the Incarnation…not about text. God brings us into the divine, and He comes to us through the human.

Do you think Christ made a mistake not passing out Bible books? He should have done that, then, not 1500 years later…

What about the 2nd letter of Peter…not to follow your personal interpretation…God might not be in your interpretation…

 

[rainman10]

Thank you all, I am looking into lots of books to read from the library and the home study that you suggested. It makes sense to me (the tradition part) but most arguments will say well who says the tradition is Catholic tradition? How can I convince them that Peter was the first Pope?

Hi, suzyq. Are you really trying to convince them or trying to convince yourself?
If you are trying to convince them, don’t bother with that right now, you will not likely be able to succeed. Many protestants are not willing to admit they are interpreting scripture incorrectly because they are not willing to admit they are wrong or have been mislead.

You need to strengthen your faith in God and His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. To me it appears you are troubled because you do not know much about your Catholic religion and could very easily be swayed to believe the lies of protestantism. Going to these anti-Catholic websites is a complete waste of your time, because you will only find garbage there. Satan is working to steer you away, please be aware and do not weaken. I hope I am not being to blunt, but I sense a bit of weakness from you.

God Bless You and guide you in your search.