C
CopticChristian
Guest
Pat,Let me guess… you believe in Once Saved Always Saved…, also in saved by faith alone, right?
Does this mean that we are going to have to contend with confess with your lips and believe with your heart?
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Does this mean that we are going to have to contend with confess with your lips and believe with your heart?
J
jlhargus
Guest
Salvation is through the work of Christ who works thru the Church, His body. I would be happy to debate, on another line. The tradition of men OSAS. If you start a line let me know I will join you.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Harg,
Are you sure you want to debate Barelohim…I asked this question…
and the response was this…
There is something amuck here…Jesus is Father and Holy Spirit according to Bare…might want to rethink this one…
B
Barelohim
Guest
Epeshians 1: 22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church,
23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ephesians 5:27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church , not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Collosians 4:15 Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.
16 And when this epistle hath been read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye also read the epistle from Laodicea.
Phiemon 1: 1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker,
2 and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always, making mention of thee in my prayers,
5 hearing of thy love, and of the faith which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints;
And especially the mandate of the church, and those that are called as leaders,etc, of that church…
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The proof is in the pudding! All wisdom is revealed by its children! The mandate of any leader of any denomination is for those students to become as their teacher. And as you look at the leaders of any denomination today, you will find their sheep as their teacher.
Only those that are taught by the Spirit, become as their teacher. And that is to be moled, conformed, transformed, into the character, and likeness of Christ Jesus.
He is the potter, and believers are the clay. But so far, no denomination has been turning out much in the likeness of Christ, for they live in a mode of sin, and confession, sin and confession, sin and confession…
Sincerely In Christ. " It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me!"
Barelohim…
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23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ephesians 5:27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church , not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Collosians 4:15 Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.
16 And when this epistle hath been read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye also read the epistle from Laodicea.
Phiemon 1: 1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker,
2 and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always, making mention of thee in my prayers,
5 hearing of thy love, and of the faith which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints;
And especially the mandate of the church, and those that are called as leaders,etc, of that church…
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The proof is in the pudding! All wisdom is revealed by its children! The mandate of any leader of any denomination is for those students to become as their teacher. And as you look at the leaders of any denomination today, you will find their sheep as their teacher.
Only those that are taught by the Spirit, become as their teacher. And that is to be moled, conformed, transformed, into the character, and likeness of Christ Jesus.
He is the potter, and believers are the clay. But so far, no denomination has been turning out much in the likeness of Christ, for they live in a mode of sin, and confession, sin and confession, sin and confession…
Sincerely In Christ. " It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me!"
Barelohim…
.
J
JRKH
Guest
Since you offer this as a response to my my request for Scriptural support for, "equally compelling evidence …for ‘church’ as you define it, I must assume that you do not have such evidence either in instruction or in example.
This is not to discount what you have written above, but rather that what you describe above resides within the visible and authoritative ekklesia as devised and protected by the Holy Spirit.
Peace
James
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Bare,
You make no sense.
First The Catholic Church is not a denomination. When you speak of Denominations you are speaking of Protestants.
Next when you string unrelated Bible Verses together
“Judas hanged himself”; “Go and do likewise”!
it makes no sense…
So unless you have a point…it is just so much reading trying to figure out what you mean.
With that being said…since you do not believe that the denominations have it correct you must be a Restorationist…Church of Christ or some other distant Protestant group of believers that believes you are bringing something new to the table…
Ok
B
Barelohim
Guest
The question of the trinity, was, and is, absolutely necessary in the begining of ones journey. For it is how we can see, through Jesus, how one relates to the Spirit… One has to remember, that this scripture, " For God was in Christ, reconcilling the world back unto Himself!" Does not mean that Jesus was filled with the Spirit/God, when He was born, nor even for near 30 years. Jesus lived as a man, dependant on the Spirit/God… ! Jesus received the Holy Spirit/God, after His water baptisim by John at the Jordan… Only from that time forth, were miracles done! And Jesus said it wasn’t Him, but the Spirit, in Him, He doeth the works…Harg,
Are you sure you want to debate Barelohim…I asked this question…
and the response was this…
There is something amuck here…Jesus is Father and Holy Spirit according to Bare…might want to rethink this one…
Jesus was born of/by the Spirit at His conception. Same as we are when we are born again… Born of the Spirit, by the Spirit… BUT then we are to be filled, with the Spirit, and learn to live by the Spirit, that the works of the Spirit can be manifest through His now corporate body…
The shadow of this experience is in the OTestament… Concerning the tabernacle, which was a representation of the body… Moses sprinkled the water and the blood on the tabernacle and on everything in the tabernacle thus sanctifying the tabernacle… Same as with ourselves, washed in the blood, and the water of his word… For what purpose? That the cloud could descend upon the tabernacle, filling the tabernacle and covering the tabernacle, so that the tabernacle couldn’t be seen for the cloud that covered it! Same as us. We are to be so filled with the Spirit, that we become less and less seen, in place of Christ…
Simple really… His job, not ours…
Sincerely In Christ, our Enabler
Barelohim…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Bare,
I am so glad you simplified that one.
So we are on the same page…
Do you have to be Baptized to be a Christian?
Do you have to believe before you are Baptized?
Do you believe that babies should be Baptized?
Do you profess Sacraments or 2 ordinances?
What version of the Bible do you use…so I can check your syntax…?
J
JustaServant
Guest
Christ said to Peter, “on this rock I will build my Church.” Now, I don’t extend this to mean papal supremacy, as our Catholic siblings in Christ do, but it certainly means He intended there to be a Church. Clearly the Church is where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. Why? because that is how He brings us the Gospel. That is how we come to grow in grace. Faith comes by hearing. Baptism now saves you. If we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just will forgive you sins. Drink of it all of you for the remission of sins.
You seem to asking the other posters here to believe that the Church is somehow separate from the saving work of Christ. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Jon
B
Barelohim
Guest
Nothing new dear friend, It has been there ever since it was written. It is the mystery Paul talks of , and reveals to eyes that see. and ears that hear. Meaning Spiritually discerned…
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown/mature: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:
8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:
9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words .
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Sincerely In Christ, our comforter.
It was the undivided Church.Oh oh oh!!! I know this one. Is it the Roman Catholic Church?
Jon
J
JRKH
Guest
Amen Jon…the Unified Church (RC/EO)…by which God reveals His Wisdom to the world (Eph 3:8-12)…and through which the Holy Spirit gave to the universal Church the canon of Scripture and then defended it, copied it, distributed it, taught from it, and protected it for 1500 years before the concept of “Sola Scriptura” came along.
And unfortunately through Sola Scriptura came the error of the “invisible church”…
Of course I know that you do not hold to that error…But I suspect that our new friend does…
Peace
James
B
Barelohim
Guest
Jon we are saved through faith in the One who gave His life for ours. Period! And for the working out of our salvation, which is another matter to our becoming more like Christ. I take the work of doing so, by following the advice of Scripture, which clearly says.
Phillipians 2: 12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 **for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.**P
Jon there is a church, and He is the Head, the High Priest of this church, and it is the body of believers all over this world, who have received the good news, and invited Jesus to come into their lives, and become, not only their saviour, but their Lord!
They know His voice, they know the prompting of the Spirit, they know and understand the meaning of the spirit of the word of God, and have His life, alive, and growing in them.
Every believer who has heard the gospel, and received the reality of the gospel, shares the gospel with those who need the gospel. Because it is a reality to them, and in them, and they want to share this, as one shares the reality of their first love… They can’t shut up about it, and this new life, and this new realtionship, and they becoming a new creation in Christ through it…
Sincerely In Christ.
Barelohim.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Sola Scriptura is defeated simply by opening your local Yellow Pages and counting the number of denominations in your city.
God is not the author of confusion.
God is not the author of confusion.
The problem with “invisible Church” is that it implies one can’t see it. Our confessions say, however, it is where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. For the sacraments to be administered there must be some form of established visible Church.Amen Jon…the Unified Church (RC/EO)…by which God reveals His Wisdom to the world (Eph 3:8-12)…and through which the Holy Spirit gave to the universal Church the canon of Scripture and then defended it, copied it, distributed it, taught from it, and protected it for 1500 years before the concept of “Sola Scriptura” came along.
And unfortunately through Sola Scriptura came the error of the “invisible church”…
Of course I know that you do not hold to that error…But I suspect that our new friend does…
Peace
James
Visible enough that I know where to go to receive the means of grace.
Jon
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Bare,
Ok. Got that one, now that it is out of the way…tell me this…
Do you have to be Baptized to be a Christian?
Do you have to believe before you are Baptized?
Do you believe that babies should be Baptized?
Do you profess Sacraments or 2 ordinances?
What version of the Bible do you use…so I can check your syntax…?
B
Barelohim
Guest
Do you know James, that even those of the Jewish faith, have two books… The Torah, and the teachings of the rabbiis… One the written laws/precepts, and the oral law of the rabbis… Today, and conflict between the written law of Moses, and the oral law of the rabbiis, the oral law takes precedent over the written law… Tradition has taken over from the written word. I find a parallel here in your comments.Amen Jon…the Unified Church (RC/EO)…by which God reveals His Wisdom to the world (Eph 3:8-12)…and through which the Holy Spirit gave to the universal Church the canon of Scripture and then defended it, copied it, distributed it, taught from it, and protected it for 1500 years before the concept of “Sola Scriptura” came along.
And unfortunately through Sola Scriptura came the error of the “invisible church”…
Of course I know that you do not hold to that error…But I suspect that our new friend does…
Peace
James
You agree there is an invisible head of the church, but also a visible head of the church. And you ask that believers who are in error if they believe more certainly in the invisible to change and accept the visible over the invisible! Have I stated that rightly?
Sincerely IN Christ
Barelohim.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Bare,
I think he is saying that if it is invisible then you can’t see it and if it is invisible you can’t touch it nor can you find it because it is invisible and that makes it difficult when you consider that if you have eyes that see and ears that hear if it is invisible then you are out of luck in finding what it is you cannot see or hear because if you think about it if believers that think it is invisible when they go there and try to find out how to get there will be lost since they know it is invisible and if it is invisible then how can they hear anything unless it is visible…so you are better off being blind and deaf because you in as good a position to find the invisible as it is absent from our senses…
I think that is it…
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