Please help with embarassing questions

[MarcoPolo]

NO NO NO – a thousand times NO!!!

The scrupulous are wracked with guilt; this is not an effective compass!

If one is scrupulous, you may be correct. If not…you are incorrect.

Sirach 37:14
A man’s conscience can tell him his situation better than seven watchmen in a lofty tower.

 

[CuriousInIL]

If one is scrupulous, you may be correct. If not…you are incorrect.
Sirach 37:14
A man’s conscience can tell him his situation better than seven watchmen in a lofty tower.

Does anyone doubt that the OP is scrupulous?

 

[Spirithound]

The same is true of absolution; I have found that any number of priests seem simply unwilling to do something so simple as pronounce the valid form of absolution, “I absolve you.”

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to ask the priest to use the words if he doesn’t?

 

[otjm]

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to ask the priest to use the words if he doesn’t?

The answer to this is probably best left to another thread, given this major component within the OP’s posts - scrupulosity.

The hsort answer is probably along the line of “If you don’t know enough about the rubrics of the sacrament to advise specifically, you might be best off accepting absolution as given and going about your business.”

People who want to tell the priest how to do his job need to be absolutely accurate. Most cannot quote chapter and verse, at which point one has to ask if they truly know there was something wrong.

 

[Steve40]

You cannot commit a sin without intending to do it. So, unless you want to, the answer is “no.”

There are two ways to look at sin. There is the objective and the subjective. Objective sin is something that is sinful regardless of our intentions. A viloation of moral law is objective sin. Subjectively it may not be sin because of lack of self control powerlessness and whatever that I don’t want to judge.

For myself, I like to live in the objective area. I agree that I have been out of control and I am powerless. But, I would much rather rely upon the Mercy of God then my own judgement:

Claim it as your sin, confess it as yours and then give it to God and thank Jesus for His Precious Blood.

 

[otjm]

There are two ways to look at sin. There is the objective and the subjective. Objective sin is something that is sinful regardless of our intentions. A viloation of moral law is objective sin. Subjectively it may not be sin because of lack of self control powerlessness and whatever that I don’t want to judge.

For myself, I like to live in the objective area. I agree that I have been out of control and I am powerless. But, I would much rather rely upon the Mercy of God then my own judgement:

Claim it as your sin, confess it as yours and then give it to God and thank Jesus for His Precious Blood.

That, however, is not how the Church looks at sin.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

If one is scrupulous, you may be correct. If not…you are incorrect.

Sirach 37:14
A man’s conscience can tell him his situation better than seven watchmen in a lofty tower.

I invite you to re-read the OP and decide whether you think Anonymous2 is scrupulous.

It seems to me (and everyone else who has answered) that he/she is not merely scrupulous, but possibly afflicted with OCD.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Steve40]

That, however, is not how the Church looks at sin.

Sure She does. She just happens to be emphisizing the subjectiveity of sin instead of going after objective sin right now, but that’s Her call.

Objective sin is objective reality. Don’t judge people. Don’t even judge yourself, but not judging includes not letting yourself off the hook. Judge the sin. Is the action or thought or word or deed sinful? If yes, then don’t subjectively let yourself off the hook. God’s Mercy is to Awsome to push the His Mercy aside that way.

 

[jmcrae]

Finding a good confessor, in other words, seems to be an extraordinary task.

If he gives you bad advice, he will go to Hell in your place, per Ezekiel 3. Have no fear of obedience; you can never be judged guilty for doing as you are told. On the other hand, if you disobey thinking that he is wrong, and it turns out that he was right, then you will go to Hell on your own responsibility. So, the safest course of action is always to obey.

 

[otjm]

Sure She does. She just happens to be emphisizing the subjectiveity of sin instead of going after objective sin right now, but that’s Her call.

Objective sin is objective reality. Don’t judge people. Don’t even judge yourself, but not judging includes not letting yourself off the hook. Judge the sin. Is the action or thought or word or deed sinful? If yes, then don’t subjectively let yourself off the hook. God’s Mercy is to Awsome to push the His Mercy aside that way.

I was trying to give you a clue, but you didn’t get it, The OP seems to be seriously involved with scrupulosity. This is not the place for an in-depth discussion of the nuances of moral theology. It is of no benefit to him; it only serves to aggravate an already serious problem.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I invite you to re-read the OP and decide whether you think Anonymous2 is scrupulous.

It seems to me (and everyone else who has answered) that he/she is not merely scrupulous, but possibly afflicted with OCD.

Peace,
Dante

Peace to you too! The post in which I questioned scrupulosity was specifically in response to his concern that: “while sanitizing themselves after going to the bathroom, could be guilty of the sin against nature (the one mentioned in Genesis 18-19) by himself?”

I took this as a concern that perhaps the “sanitization” went beyond hygiene and became a masturbatory act, in which case, I don’t necessarily jump to “scupulosity” as a conclusion. Perhaps the OP can clarify…because that seemed to me to be his/her focus in more than one post.

Perhaps he/she is OCD, but I was addressing a very specific question.

 

[Steve40]

I was trying to give you a clue, but you didn’t get it, The OP seems to be seriously involved with scrupulosity. This is not the place for an in-depth discussion of the nuances of moral theology. It is of no benefit to him; it only serves to aggravate an already serious problem.

Cluelessness is my specialty but that’s beside the point. Scrupulacity is not delt with by dealing with sin in a sujective way. A sound understanding of what is objective sin in the way to go. Examine sin from the perspective of thought, word or deed. If any of these are sin ie offensive to God in any way then take them to God and confess them.

I have a friend who gets out of jury duty by saying. “They wouldn’t be here if they didn’t do something wrong.” That may be bad judicial practice but it’s not a bad attitude for going to confession because in the case of going before God with guilt, it is most likely true. In confession God forgives all our sins even the one’s we don’t remember or know. Just leave it at that.

 

[Anonymous2]

I took this as a concern that perhaps the “sanitization” went beyond hygiene and became a masturbatory act, in which case, I don’t necessarily jump to “scupulosity” as a conclusion. Perhaps the OP can clarify…because that seemed to me to be his/her focus in more than one post.

If you read Genesis 18-19 you will see what sin I refer to. This is not Onanism, but the sin mentioned in Genesis 18-19. This had never occurred to me as being sinful until recently (like last week) when, at times, nearly every action seems to me to involve a component of sin. The biggest problem are the repetitive thoughts, during which it seems at times that it is not possible to pass an hour of the day without committing a grievous sin. But this question in particular was asking if, under any circumstances, this action of sanitizing after using the bathroom could ever be sinful in the way described in Genesis 18-19. Embarrassment forbids me from being more specific.

 

[Steve40]

If you read Genesis 18-19 you will see what sin I refer to. This is not Onanism, but the sin mentioned in Genesis 18-19. This had never occurred to me as being sinful until recently (like last week) when, at times, nearly every action seems to me to involve a component of sin. The biggest problem are the repetitive thoughts, during which it seems at times that it is not possible to pass an hour of the day without committing a grievous sin. But this question in particular was asking if, under any circumstances, this action of sanitizing after using the bathroom could ever be sinful in the way described in Genesis 18-19. Embarrassment forbids me from being more specific.

What are you greatful for? Start with that and thank God for that. If there is nothing we are greatful to God, then that is a problem in and of itself and I have been there and sometimes stiill am. God is gracious to us even when we can’t stop sinning. If there are any people invoved in your sinful thoughts start praying for them regularly. If the problem occurs every hour then pray for them every hour. Otherwise pray at least daily for them. Prayer for individuals that we hold deep seeded resentment toward seems to remove the resentment over time.

Ask God to tell you what you can do for someone else and/or thank Him for the oportunity to help others. God doesn’t need us to help others but we need to be used by Him for His purpose. Self absorbsion which I also have a fare degree of experience in blocks the ability to allow God to use us. We all need to be used by God. Sometimes the way that He uses us is just by us praying for people. I remember after my Grand mother had her stoke she couldn’t do too much but be there as a gift to us and allow us to do something for God by doing something for her. In reality she did more for us through her prayers. She prayed for us constantly and now that she has gone ahead of us I don’t think she has stopped.

I’ll be praying for you today and whenever I can remember Anonymous2.

Steve

 

[Anonymous2]

I’m not sure you understand.

I assure you that I have prayed very much. The sheer constancy of this problem provokes a great deal of bitterness, even against God, insofar as it often seems that prayers are “not being heard.” I went again to Confession yesterday, and, sure enough, precisely as I had predicted, the same exact problems are now recurring. I have the fear of having omitted things, having made a bad or at least incomplete Confession, having more of these horrendous thoughts, etc. I will again not receive Holy Communion tomorrow, and I will again pass the week in a state of alternate anguish, anger, and temptation to despair. I have bound myself to pray 45-50 minutes every day before the Blessed Sacrament, and while I had hoped that it might be possible to return to normal meditations on various topics of the Faith, I will now undoubtedly spend the week making a long examination and trying to stir up contrition the whole time.

I am convinced that perhaps the only way to get rid of the problem is either for God to miraculously intervene and “erase” my memory, as it were, or to be given some sort of command under obedience never to confess any thoughts again. The former is highly unlikely, and the latter is almost impossible given the impossibility of distinguishing sinful from non-sinful thoughts.

This nonsense wears on a person after a time to the point of tempting someone to give up confessing and give up the practice of the Faith.

I asked only one question regarding this thread which I wish someone might elaborate on, without reference to scrupulosity or OCD, but instead regarding the specific content of the question. I try to “hygenic” with regard to the topic at hand, and I had a fear of having committed the unnatural vice as a result. This was not intended sinfully as I remember during all the past time, but now I fear to do so would be sinful. If people could confine the replies to that question only, I would appreciate it. Suggesting prayer, finding a good confessor, etc. are things I have heard many times before, some of which have not worked, and the rest of which only engender further bitterness.

 

[jmcrae]

If you did not intend to commit sin, then you did not commit sin. Sin is a conscious act of rebellion against God; it is, therefore, impossible to sin by accident, even if we are often imperfect by accident.

If you don’t remember intending to commit sin, then you did not intend to commit sin. (You would remember something like that.)

If something flashed through your mind, but you didn’t dwell on it any longer than it took to realize that it was a bad thought, then there was no sin, regardless of what the thought was.

If a bad thought kept trying to get into your mind, and you were resisting it to the best of your ability, then again, you did not sin - even if the thought persisted for some time.

As far as whatever you do in the bathroom to keep yourself clean, it is not a sin to keep yourself clean, and whatever means you use to do that is fine.

 

[blessedtoo]

Anonymous2,
Your question was answered directly by JimG here:

The answer is No.

A person with your degree of scrupulosity and OCD should not second guess your confessor or the scrupulous anonymous recommendations.

The reason you go to confession is to take the burden of analysis off of you and place it on the confessor. Do not second guess. Do not try to be your own moral theologian.

and baltobetsey here:

You cannot commit a sin without intending to do it. So, unless you want to, the answer is “no.”

And yet you are still questioning us, the priest, yourself, and God, as was predicted by otjm here:

No matter what answer you get on thie specific issue at hand, it is not going to help; even supposing for the moment that it “answers” your question, you will simply move on to the next question.

In addition, you’ve been absolved by your priest in confession and told by the priest that

after making the third large general confession, I was placed under obedience not to make any more. I have not. I was also told not to revisit the past,

It is clear to me and everyone else on this thread that you are suffering from scrupulosity and I will continue to state that obvious fact regardless of whether is makes you angry.

Scrupulosity is a tool and tactic of the enemy of God. In your case it appears to be working quite well as you have stated repeatedly:

This nonsense wears on a person after a time to the point of tempting someone to give up confessing and give up the practice of the Faith.

I confess these repeatedly every week, making nearly an identical Confession each time, it seems, with no improvement, no apparent change, frequent temptations to despair and give up the Faith, and often seemingly deterred from doing so only by the fear of Hell.

By stubbornly insisting that you know better than the priest, the advice given here as well as other places, and the Church through her Sacraments, you are allowing the frustration and doubt to meddle with your faith.

 

[baltobetsy]

I am convinced that perhaps the only way to get rid of the problem is either for God to miraculously intervene and “erase” my memory, as it were, or to be given some sort of command under obedience never to confess any thoughts again. The former is highly unlikely, and the latter is almost impossible given the impossibility of distinguishing sinful from non-sinful thoughts.

Please, please, please, GO TO THE DOCTOR!!! There are treatments for OCD which will not offend your conscience. I know someone very well who suffered much as you do. He was diagnosed with OCD, given medication, and stopped having the bothersome thoughts. He now lives a normal life and is no longer troubled by scrupulosity. Not once in the course of treatment was he asked to do anything remotely sinful. GO TO THE DOCTOR!!!

Betsy