Please help!

[Just_Deb]

GO uncharitable? You’ve been uncharitable and judgemental from your first post. Gossip would be if I talked about it within the parish. Here, as you don’t know anyone, I’m trying to find a solution and apparently you are the only one living in a bubble. Have you read the news in the last few years?

st_felicity:

You are just gossiping–look at all your titillating little details–how petty!

Lisa–it’s not just the “evil one” with the antisocial need for attention…

I’m done, before I go all uncharitable on her…

 

[st_felicity]

Just Deb:

GO uncharitable? You’ve been uncharitable and judgemental from your first post. Gossip would be if I talked about it within the parish. Here, as you don’t know anyone, I’m trying to find a solution and apparently you are the only one living in a bubble. Have you read the news in the last few years?

Okay–Now “I” have taken a deep breath…

I will explain why I think you are gossiping and not simply venting.

1. You obviously HAVE talked about this within the parish or you would notbe so informed on others opinions and experiences concerning this woman.

2.You are not looking for a “solution”. Every suggestion you have been given, you have said either–tried that, didn’t work, or good suggestion, but…

1. Any post that sarts with “You think that’s disgusting? At the sign of peace …” is just forwarding more detraction…

 

[st_felicity]

rayne89:

st felicity this seems some what out of character for you.

I don’t agree I’m out of line…perhaps it seems out of character because I have never experienced this level of culumny and detraction in any other threads I’ve visited on this forum, and I abhor gossip!

I’m sorry if my disgust offends anyone.

 

[Benadam]

I have a feeling that what makes this lady tick is not understood as well as the people offended by her think.

The interpretations of what is inside her head have comefrom the perspective of " what would I have to feel in order to behave like that?" She doesn’t have the same starting point. I’m thinking that she feels unappreciated and abused by a parish full of people who manage to taint every new group of people she encounters with their prejudices of her. This situation for her may well have begun just this way. If this is so, it is her love and attachement to the parish that makes her cling to a need to make something that was supposed to be good that turned very bad back into something good again. She would be so emotionally sensitive to that purpose that it wouldn’t take much to trigger an intense emotional response. She would be living in a routine that continuously simulates the environment that initially abused her. These circumstances are stored in her emotional memory and are reexperienced involuntarily as a survival mechanism. Unfortunately what she is protecting herself from is now a reaction to her rather than her reaction to it as it may have been originally. The only way of dealing with her constructively if this idea of what’s happening is true is to deal her some therapy. It would require that her behaviour not be taken personally and that her involuntary protection of herself be made conscious and unnecessary. Constant appreciation for what she does. Emotional detachment from her behaviour. Well defined and strong boundaries. The detachment would help keep boundaries strong. Praise Praise Praise. 10 people are taking it easy thanks to her. She knows everyone thinks she is the whore of the gates of hell. It sickens her that she is an object for so many prayers. She fels like the sacrificial goat bearing the sins of the parish in that everyone can feel better about themselves because they can see her as evil. This in turn makes her act evil. What in reality is a position of utter rejection manifests in behaviour that appears arrogant and rude. I throw this interp of this situation out there for it’s possibilities. I have no idea what the reality of the situation is.

 

[Just_Deb]

People have been settling down right into apathy for far too long. Step back and read my posts as someone outside the parish who is not experiencing what I am? What possible purpose would that serve? Unless you have seen it, you have no clue. I’ve been taking deep breaths for three and a half years and have seen more good people leave this parish and two that actually left the Church because of this ****! Okay, maybe not an accusation, but rather, a passive aggressive little dig. We have tried everything possible, love, stealth, power praying, to no avail, which is why after all these years I have to seek guidance from outside. You have heard of community, no? Good night.

st_felicity:

Settle down Deb…Can’t you see how much power you are giving this woman? Step back and read your posts as someone outside your parish who is not experiencing what you are…

Okay, deep breath…

I did not “accuse” you of anything–I said it seems over the top. I can accept that weird things happen–there is no accusation there–it is strange and awful–I’m sure you would agree.

Secondly–If she is a broken person–she needs love, not the high level of anxiety that you clearly have. I, for one, hope that priests would recognize this even if their gut reaction would be to blurt something uncharitable (especially if they’ve had 12 years to consider her sad state).

When people are jockeying for position and arranging power plays to combat an individual’s hostility, it does not surprise me that the person in question only hunkers down in hostility. Have you tried playing to her ego? Have you tried “appealing to her expertise”?Have you used the clever language Our Lord did when questioned by Pilate–“you say so…”. C’mon–Jesus promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church–one sad, hurt woman will not bring down Rome!

 

[Island_Oak]

Deb–time to close the vents & calm down. Somewhere between the meatballs and the cupcakes alarm bells went off…

If you are serious about rectifying this situation you will have to adopt a measured, well-reasoned and unemotional approach to the issue and this woman. So far you do not sound as if you’re there. If you are simply frustrated beyond all reason (and I’m not suggesting you don’t have cause to be) perhaps it’s time to find another outlet for your energies. There are so many wonderful Catholic organizations that would welcome your involvement if your own parish is spinning its wheels. Maybe the best thing for you to do is drop back ten and re-evaluate–your best option may be to punt.

 

[Just_Deb]

According to her family, it’s a life long thing. She was hateful as a child and no one understands why. Her sibs all turned out okay and her parents have bent over backwards for her. Only God knows, but how many more people have to get hurt while we sit back and try to figure it out?

Benadam:

I have a feeling that what makes this lady tick is not understood as well as the people offended by her think.

The interpretations of what is inside her head have comefrom the perspective of " what would I have to feel in order to behave like that?" She doesn’t have the same starting point. I’m thinking that she feels unappreciated and abused by a parish full of people who manage to taint every new group of people she encounters with their prejudices of her. This situation for her may well have begun just this way. If this is so, it is her love and attachement to the parish that makes her cling to a need to make something that was supposed to be good that turned very bad back into something good again. She would be so emotionally sensitive to that purpose that it wouldn’t take much to trigger an intense emotional response. She would be living in a routine that continuously simulates the environment that initially abused her. These circumstances are stored in her emotional memory and are reexperienced involuntarily as a survival mechanism. Unfortunately what she is protecting herself from is now a reaction to her rather than her reaction to it as it may have been originally. The only way of dealing with her constructively if this idea of what’s happening is true is to deal her some therapy. It would require that her behaviour not be taken personally and that her involuntary protection of herself be made conscious and unnecessary. Constant appreciation for what she does. Emotional detachment from her behaviour. Well defined and strong boundaries. The detachment would help keep boundaries strong. Praise Praise Praise. 10 people are taking it easy thanks to her. She knows everyone thinks she is the whore of the gates of hell. It sickens her that she is an object for so many prayers. She fels like the sacrificial goat bearing the sins of the parish in that everyone can feel better about themselves because they can see her as evil. This in turn makes her act evil. What in reality is a position of utter rejection manifests in behaviour that appears arrogant and rude. I throw this interp of this situation out there for it’s possibilities. I have no idea what the reality of the situation is.

 

[st_felicity]

Island Oak:

Deb–time to close the vents & calm down. Somewhere between the meatballs and the cupcakes alarm bells went off…

If you are serious about rectifying this situation you will have to adopt a measured, well-reasoned and unemotional approach to the issue and this woman. So far you do not sound as if you’re there. If you are simply frustrated beyond all reason (and I’m not suggesting you don’t have cause to be) perhaps it’s time to find another outlet for your energies. There are so many wonderful Catholic organizations that would welcome your involvement if your own parish is spinning it’s wheels. Maybe the best thing for you to do is drop back ten and re-evaluate–your best option may be to punt.

Oh, how I wish my fight or flight response had not kicked in–I can be a bit reactionary…You, Island Oak are an oasis of reason…

 

[Just_Deb]

Precisely why I’m here. So I don’t go postal at church.
Island Oak:

Deb–time to close the vents & calm down. Somewhere between the meatballs and the cupcakes alarm bells went off…

If you are serious about rectifying this situation you will have to adopt a measured, well-reasoned and unemotional approach to the issue and this woman. So far you do not sound as if you’re there. If you are simply frustrated beyond all reason (and I’m not suggesting you don’t have cause to be) perhaps it’s time to find another outlet for your energies. There are so many wonderful Catholic organizations that would welcome your involvement if your own parish is spinning it’s wheels. Maybe the best thing for you to do is drop back ten and re-evaluate–your best option may be to punt.

 

[Island_Oak]

Felicity–you are too funny–but we share the same prompting.

Deb–you sound sincerely frustrated, and for that I’m sorry. You also sound overly consumed with the tumult this obviously disturbed woman is causing. If I were you I’d seriously consider how much more of myself I was willing to sacifice to this situation. Best wishes.

 

[Just_Deb]

Frustrated? You bet! And I should hope that you would be too, if it were happening in your parish! If we keep backing down and watering down the faith, we might as well be Protestant! I will gladly sacrifice myself if it means saving this parish from the cafeteria Catholics and other malcontents. The evil one is picking away at the Church, one parish at a time and he’s flying under the radar. But it’s not too late if ‘real’ Catholics take off the kid gloves. One of my most often repeated lines is, "Even Jesus knew when it was time to start flipping tables!"
Island Oak:

Deb–you sound sincerely frustrated, and for that I’m sorry. You also sound overly consumed with the tumult this obviously disturbed woman is causing. If I were you I’d seriously consider how much more of myself I was willing to sacifice to this situation.

 

[Just_Deb]

Island Oak:

Deb–you sound sincerely frustrated, and for that I’m sorry. You also sound overly consumed with the tumult this obviously disturbed woman is causing. If I were you I’d seriously consider how much more of myself I was willing to sacifice to this situation.

Frustrated? You bet! And I should hope that you would be too, if it were happening in your parish! If we keep backing down and watering down the faith, we might as well be Protestant! I will gladly sacrifice myself if it means saving this parish from the cafeteria Catholics and other malcontents. The evil one is picking away at the Church, one parish at a time and he’s flying under the radar. But it’s not too late if ‘real’ Catholics take off the kid gloves. One of my most often repeated lines is, "Even Jesus knew when it was time to start flipping tables!"

 

[Mysty101]

Just Deb:

I came here seeking support not more attacks. I copied the text from an e-mail I sent to Fr. Trigilio. I have it set as my default because I think the font is pretty, the purple is for Lent, and I chose a larger font (which, incidentally, was no larger than Lisa’s) because a lot of my e-mail friends are elderly and have poor vision. If you would have taken the time, you would have seen that it was my very first post and cut me some slack. Perhaps you might practice tolerance and not be so quick to judge?

I am not attacking. I was just wondering why. Sorry you took offense, none was intended.

The fact that you did react so strongly to my question leads me to believe that you may be overreacting to other things.

The suggestion of a panel to discuss this problem seems like a good approach. If no one is willing to address this problem, it may be time to shake the dust from your shoes and move on.

 

[Mysty101]

Scullinius:

This response is unreasonable, uncharitable, and frankly, uninformed. The so-called “screaming” font to which you refer is when people type in ALL CAPS, which is considered to be equivalent to shouting. Just Deb wasn’t doing that, obviously. Actually, I liked her large type. It was easy to read!

The suggestion that she also might be “out of line,” as you say, is just boggling.

In the old forums we did not type in HTML, and therefore could not change fonts—caps was the only way to stand out.

I do feel a large font is an overstatement, and am not comfortable with it, especially in such a long post, and was just stating this.

 

[midwest_mom]

Hi Deb,

I know how frustrating it is to see things happening in the Parish and you can’t fix it. It is even more frustrating that people who are from “good” Parishes can’t relate to how bad things can really become. I understand their doubt, I would not have believed what people are capable of either until it happened.

A “core group” of the rich and powerful of our Parish didn’t like our new priest. He wanted to return our Parish and School to being Catholic. He was even sent by our Bishop to do this job. When this group couldn’t get the Bishop to remove this Priest, they told the Bishop that the Priest was gay and trying to molest boy Altar Servers and if he didn’t remove the Priest, they would go to the media. The Bishopwho knew it was a lie), left the decision to the Priest, but he had to leave! what choice did he have!! Our Parish has been torn apart, but this “core group” is very happy. We have fought them, but … We aren’t even getting a new Priest. Retires will fill in.

I have no advice. I am out of idea’s. I just wanted to say I understand and admire your courage. Hang in there!! I will pray for you and your Parish. Please pray for mine!

 

[JCPhoenix]

st_felicity:

This seems so over the top. Priests dying, one committing suicide, others leaving under suspicious circumstances and sexual accusations? Are you exaggerating at all? **It sounds like a bad Dan Brown novel! **–I can’t imagine a priest 200 miles away, no names, and he recognizes the situation and in the confessional adds to the gossip? I guess I’m just spoiled by our super parish priest.

If she’s so obviously nuts how does she hold sway? Where does she get her “power” (other than from the evil one ). And how do you know you would have support–has there been a lot of gossiping?

In the OP’s defense…the part about a priest committing suicide is very true.

I live in the Twin Cities metro area, and Hudson WI is just across the river. The priest in question had a reputation of being what they called “ultra-orthodox” and “alienated” that very “progressive” parish. He went to a town in northern Wisconsin, and after being questioned twice regarding a murder which occurred in a Hudson funeral home, he was found, having hung himself. He was in his early 30’s.

It has been said by the media that he had child porn on his computer or something like that.

I 'm surprised you didn’t hear of this since your state borders Wisconsin…at least, one portion of your state.

Let’s hear the OP out and see if we can give some advice.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to offer except that if you go to the bishop, do you have any proof of what this woman is teaching or her tirades?

Check the Michigan state law. In Minnesota a conversation can be legally recorded, and only 1 person needs to be aware it is being recorded. See if Michigan has something similar, invest in a mini-recorder and take it with you to church functions, have others carry it into classes and plant people to ask questions surrounding traditional church doctrine in order to get her response.

You can take this kind of thing to the bishoip for his response, and then you don’t look like the crackpot.

 

[ms_cilantro]

Why don’t you start a small group that meets away from the parish for prayer and bible study? Find like minded people who will commit to gathering together to pray for the parish. Invite the Holy Spirit to be present and see what develops. You can’t change anyone else but there is no reason you can’t develop fellowship groups where your energies could be spent focusing on the Lord. The saddest part of all of this is all the energy that is getting stolen from the parish. I would imagine that the Lord has a solution to this situation. I can also imagine how difficult it is to hear the Lord through all of this.

It makes me sad to hear your story because no one is getting what they really need.
I’ll pray for you.

 

[MParedon]

I second ms cilantro’s suggestion.
I would strongly suggest that while having a bible/prayer study group outside of the parish meeting area you would highly emphasize fidelity to the Magesterium and loyalty to the priest.
The Pope supports home Catechesis and if your worried about this lady’s influence on Whole Community Catechesis then you, or a group of you, could inform people of how to get resources for teaching Catechetics at home. Parent’s have a right to teach their children about the Church, so there can’t be an obstacle to this as long as they comply with the parish’s requirements for education to recieve 1st Communion, Confirmation, etc.
Basically you are circumventing the problem of having to deal with this particular lady.
As for her being late and sitting infront of all of you, I would suggest that once you guys notice that she’s going to be late, all of you move into those seats. Beat her to the punch, NOT to be mean, just to avoid the stress of having to deal with her actions.
Once you have a group outside of the parish, make sure all of you are on the same page. Make sure that you guys KNOW that you don’t want to be mean or antagonize this lady, but you want to grow and flourish in this parish and circumstances need for you all to do it outside of her involvement for now. I would also suggest that people volunteer to be helpful to her and companion her. I know you said that many people are praying for her, but they all need to back this up with action. People could take turns with this knowing that she will want to suck them into the drama that she is living and they must take the higher-ground and let it slide off their backs. Offer up the sacrifice of her criticisms and meanness.

It looks like to me that this parish actually is very connected, but connections seem to get broken and fragmented because she is an obstacle. You can all get together and acknowledge her as an obstacle and help each other deal with her (in a good way).

For example, when one of you want to chat with the priest then other parishioners can do their best to distract her.
This may sound odd, but things like this happen in many families and groups. A problem person is acknowledged by the rest of the group and it almost becomes second nature in how to distract or deflect the problem person while at the same time working with the person.

I would also suggest that you all make an effort to support your priest more, he seems very weak in this regard and it looks like a cross that all of you are bearing right now.

Of course she can’t be informed of the activies of this bible/prayer group especially since she has shown tendencies to sabatoge activities.

 

[MParedon]

P.S. If she finds out about this group and tries to break it up. Just mantain that this is a groups of friends getting together and being faithful to the Church. Just the same as any person that is Catholic is allowed to do anywhere whether it be a Sewing group, or having a Swimming Party.

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Thank you for everyone’s help and contribution.