please help

[Loboto-Me]

Monica, I prayed for you and will continue. Please listen to Lief, he has very sound adivce.

Remember, even the saints had to have spiritual directors in order to help discern what was Godly and what was not. Keep your faith in the Church… the gates of hell has not prevailed. Jesus doesn’t lie.

 

[oksoitworked]

That doesn’t sound right … if that were the case that simply thinking some “spiritual” experience was false was unforgivable, then I would be in the same boat as you. If anything, I would say you were being prudent (which is a virtue) because you have no real way to discern whether it was genuine or not (other than an ex cathedra proclamation.)

I’ve had some lady walk up to me and say “God is calling you to be a priest!!” and I’ve had things “whispered” into my ear but I pay no attention to them. Why? How do I know if it is genuine? I’m not infallible! And neither are you, and feelings are easy to manipulate, so why would God expect you to be able to discern that stuff?

From another thread:
“Barclay’s commentary points out that if someone is so far removed from God’s Grace as to confuse God’s work with that of the Devil, they have placed themselves out of the reach of the Holy Spirit and will not be forgiven, because they will not be convicted and will see no need for repentance.”

Thus, non-forgiveness = non-repentance. The unforgivable sin is unforgivable because you refuse to repent. Just the mere fact that you are seeking forgiveness means that the Holy Spirit has not left you. If you had indeed blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and it left you, then you wouldn’t even bother.

SHAZAAAM!!!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=222161

 

[TomD123]

I will speak to my priest… but Jesus, if it was Him, - said that He IS merciful, but His hands are tied here.

Make sure you talk to a very good and holy priest. Also remember, just because a voice tells you partial truth does not mean it is real. If the devil were trying to confuse people, he would not directly deny the hole foundation for Catholicism by saying Jesus WON’T forgive sins, he will mix some lies with a lot of truth to fool you.

God can forgive all sins. The sin against the Holy Spirit can be interpreted many ways, however, it is definitely not an “accidental” occurence. It sounds like you were just trying to judge if an inner voice was from God or not, and you were leaning towards it not coming from God. How could a God of love set up a world where a simple mistake could send you to torment for all of eternity? Step back and have confidence in God’s mercy regardless of what you feel, scrupulosity can be spiritually harmful in some cases because it leads you away from trusting in God’s mercy-something the Devil wants. Two final notes: 1) The Catholic Church is the true Church clearly so Jesus would not push you away from it and 2) Even if it was not the true Church, it is so similar to the EO Church that God would probably allow you to remain Catholic and saved rather than push you towards EO and then allow you to be damned by trying to discern the voice inside your head. If God sent people to hell for this kind of judgment, the entire Catholic Church would go to Hell for evaluating apparitions! As a Catholic, we must trust in the Church, this is how God speaks to us.
Anyway, you are in my prayers I hope that you can get over this experience soon and go back to being a holy Catholic

TomD123

 

[dusza]

…
I agree about obedience… about St John of the Cross, - with all these experiences, they felt very clear (though not good, because the content is so scary), but afterwards I always felt anxiety and fear. However, after a while, that anxiety always goes away and I feel peace again. Is that a good or a bad sign?

what if a person feels good during an experience, but it is also followed with peace and a greater love for God? this happened to me when I experienced God’s mercy in some way… it didn’t make me tremble or feel afraid, because He was showing me to His kindness… is that good though?

…

He was speaking of supernatural experiences (voices, visions), not spiritual consolations such as an experience of God’s mercy that you describe. Consolations always feel good by definition.

 

[baltobetsy]

Monica4316:

But I’m not having any other symptoms

This isn’t bad enough? You don’t have to wash your hands raw or keep running back to the house to see if the iron is turned off to be suffering from a medical problem. It’s enough that your life and relationship with God are frequently disrupted by unwanted obsessive thoughts and worry.

We can learn a lot from exorcists, who, before beginning any kind of spiritual procedures, make sure that the person is not suffering from any physical or mental illness that might account for their troubles.

We can learn from medical school professors, who teach the young doctors, “When you hear hoofbeats, think first of horses, not zebras.”

Although compared to visions and locutions and spiritual warfare, a run-of-the-mill illness is pretty dull, it is very often the cause of this kind of trouble. If you have a good sincere screening visit with a mental health professional, you will be able to rule out illness or diagnose it and get a good solution. If you end up ruling it out, you will be able to concentrate all your spiritual energy on the problems at hand. If you are diagnosed with a condition, you can deal with it and move on to a greater union with God on your spiritual path.

Wouldn’t it give you peace to know that God is not rejecting you?

Betsy

 

[Monica4316]

Thank you everyone!! that really helps. I see I still have sooo much to learn, and also that I tend to forget important truths during trial. I wish I had trusted God more through that whole time! Kind of a lot happened since then…

first, I realized something. I think God has upheld my faith through all these occurences because even during the darkest times, there was still a part of me that believed. And when I did doubt, God later restored my faith again. I don’t think it would ever be strong enough to withstand trials, without God’s grace. Also, I realized that yes I believe in the Church for an objective reason… during my conversion, - I did get a lot of consolations, - but really what changed me was how God was changing my mind on doctrines… and He did this sometimes through research and learning about Scripture and history, sometimes I dont know how it happened… but it was a very ‘natural’ sort of process, it’s not like I consciously chose to believe something because of a consolation or an experience. The good experiences just encouraged me to not give up, because I struggled during that time also, in other ways.

I’m afraid you may have exposed yourself to that when you asked for a private revelation to guide you in whether or not you should remain Catholic. Which puts private revelation above the Church.

I completely agree with this… I think that probably that was my problem, which let in the evil one. I should have just trusted God, instead I kept on asking Him to “show me” if I should be Catholic or Orthodox. But He has already shown me! And all this time, I felt a peace inside about being Catholic. I should have just read some apologetics and moved on. Instead, I was analyzing my feelings, etc, - and eventually opened myself up to attack. I’m glad that now I know I want to learn to trust God more now! I think the devil attacks me simply because he can. I need to have greater faith so he wouldn’t have such power over me.

I read something about St Padre Pio…

He learned a “rule of thumb,” which we also find in the writings of St. Teresa of Avila, and which he taught some of his spiritual followers. He noticed a certain timidity when the Virgin or the Lord first appeared, followed by a sense of peace when the vision departed. On the other hand, a devil in sacred form provoked an immediate feeling of joy and attraction, replaced afterwards by remorse and sadness.

I think that is very true… and I noticed, when that ‘voice’ was trying to tell me to be Orthodox, I felt anxiety afterwards, and remorse for having listened to it. And with that ‘condemning’ voice, I felt anxiety even during it, until God Himself took it away and gave me peace.

I will speak to my priest tomorrow as well,but I feel much better now, and am trying to rely on my faith

God bless!

 

[Monica4316]

This isn’t bad enough? You don’t have to wash your hands raw or keep running back to the house to see if the iron is turned off to be suffering from a medical problem. It’s enough that your life and relationship with God are frequently disrupted by unwanted obsessive thoughts and worry.

We can learn a lot from exorcists, who, before beginning any kind of spiritual procedures, make sure that the person is not suffering from any physical or mental illness that might account for their troubles.

We can learn from medical school professors, who teach the young doctors, “When you hear hoofbeats, think first of horses, not zebras.”

Although compared to visions and locutions and spiritual warfare, a run-of-the-mill illness is pretty dull, it is very often the cause of this kind of trouble. If you have a good sincere screening visit with a mental health professional, you will be able to rule out illness or diagnose it and get a good solution. If you end up ruling it out, you will be able to concentrate all your spiritual energy on the problems at hand. If you are diagnosed with a condition, you can deal with it and move on to a greater union with God on your spiritual path.

Wouldn’t it give you peace to know that God is not rejecting you?

Betsy

I don’t believe that He is rejecting me, but it does take a long time to ‘recover’ from these experiences, because they affect my thoughts, imagination, feelings, etc. My faith remains in me and so I end up recovering, with God’s help… I don’t know if it’s demonic or psychological, - but I’ll try to find out… I just don’t know how cause I don’t tell any of this to my family, I don’t want to worry them. There’s still something about all this that seems suspicious to me, cause it seems that when a person is going through a mental problem, they are not able to experience God either. (am I right? ) I think with me it’s either demonic, OR, it’s a mental problem that the devil sometimes increases and uses for his plans. The way I am ‘regularly’, is pretty stable. I don’t think there’s anything special about spiritual attack, I think many people get this, - and it happens when we leave an open door. The Saints had spiritual attacks in different ways, for example the devil appeared to them in person or attacked them physically. But if I can talk to a counsellor, maybe I can get further insight. I’ll try talking to my priest first tomorrow and see what he says, maybe he will suggest a counsellor.

God bless

 

[baltobetsy]

Monica, you have described a lot of suffering and angst in your family relationships. That alone is enough for anyone to get counseling. Add school to that, and you’ve got even more pressure. You don’t have to tell your family the entire story of what you’re investigating. You could just tell them, “I want to be as helpful as possible for all of you, and I need a little help for myself to be that for you.” Every bit of that is true and believable.

Mental problems can cause all kinds of things to happen to you - there really aren’t rules about whether or not you can experience God - it’s different for each person. I’m quite certain God is very close to the mentally ill, with a special love. I think the devil can see a person tormented by an illness and saying, “Well, I don’t even have to do anything, as long as the he or she doesn’t get the right kind of help.” The simple act of convincing someone not to consider medical or psychological help is a great labor-saving device for the devil.

I hope that when you speak with the priest, you don’t just wait for him to suggest a mental health professional. You should describe your troubles, and the length of time you’ve been suffering, and ask the priest outright if he thinks you could benefit from a screening. It’s kind of like tempting God to say something like, “If God wants me to see a doctor, He’ll make the priest suggest it.” I don’t know if you do that kind of thing or not, but plenty of people do. Just ask the priest.

I’ll be praying for you.

Betsy

 

[Claire_from_DE]

God bless you, Monica. You know Jesus would never tell you there was something He could or would not forgive you. You are so precious to Him. Even through all this confusion you are going through He is loving you. As we read what you have written we feel so much sympathy for you. He must feel that enormously more than we do. Even if you had been wrong in becoming Catholic (and you were not wrong) He would not say such things to you. He isn’t like that. Really, He is patient and kind and He doesn’t give ultimatums. He would gently guide you to the truth.

You should remember that Satan can tell the truth, he can tell 99% of the truth, but there are always lies mixed in. He will never tell the whole truth.

About a week and a half ago I seemed to hear Jesus tell me something. I say I ‘seemed to hear Jesus’ because I think it was from Him (but I’ll see what my spiritual director says), but I do think it’s true even if it was from my own thoughts. It was “Satan can counterfeit My voice but he can’t counterfeit My love.” I think this means Satan can imitate Jesus’ voice well enough that we might even think we are hearing Jesus but if we don’t experience that what we hear is said with love, it’s definitely not Him!

I would suggest that you read some of the writings of Julian of Norwich who was a Catholic mystic from the middle ages. Like St. Faustina, she really understood God’s great mercy. God would show her these little visions, she calls them her ‘shewings’ (showings), like little parables. Then He would let her understand what they meant. They are good to read because they kind of stick in your mind and help you to realize and remember how merciful God is.

Do go to see a good holy priest and a good therapist to help you sort out your spiritual, mental, and emotional confusion.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

You said:
hmm… I can see how this would be true… what I just noticed though, is that today, before all this happened, I was trying very hard to feel something - like to feel contrition, or God’s presence… and I was seeking deeper humility… and then that ‘voice’ came. I dont know why. Maybe I should have just trusted God… but I dont’ understand why me praying for humility ended in this horrible way, if it’s not true.

When you look at what you wrote, don’t you think this is just a little bit obvious? Who is it that doesn’t want you to have humility? Who would just love to get your mind all confused and agonizing about other problems and forget all about wanting humility etc.? Girl, you must be doing something right to get all this attention from the evil one.

About humility, don’t let your pride or even perhaps low self-esteem keep you from seeking professional help.

 

[Monica4316]

Thank you everyone!!

Sadly I wasn’t able to speak to my priest yesterday, as I had expected I don’t know why… but I feel like God is trying to help me to trust in Him more right now, and to repent of listening to that ‘voice’. My fear makes this difficult but I’m trying. The way I see the unforgiveable sin, it’s unforgiveable because the person is so hardened towards God that they simply WON’T turn back to Him and repent. But in the experience I described, when I repented of my “sin” (which isn’t a sin if God wants me to be Catholic) - the ‘voice’ said that I still won’t be forgiven. That doesn’t sound like the truth to me!! Yesterday I spent some time with Christ and felt more peace, and I felt drawn to repenting of distrusting God and listening to the ‘voice’ over Him and Church teaching.

Thanks again for the advice and prayers

God bless!

 

[Monica4316]

God bless you, Monica. You know Jesus would never tell you there was something He could or would not forgive you. You are so precious to Him. Even through all this confusion you are going through He is loving you. As we read what you have written we feel so much sympathy for you. He must feel that enormously more than we do. Even if you had been wrong in becoming Catholic (and you were not wrong) He would not say such things to you. He isn’t like that. Really, He is patient and kind and He doesn’t give ultimatums. He would gently guide you to the truth.

You should remember that Satan can tell the truth, he can tell 99% of the truth, but there are always lies mixed in. He will never tell the whole truth.

About a week and a half ago I seemed to hear Jesus tell me something. I say I ‘seemed to hear Jesus’ because I think it was from Him (but I’ll see what my spiritual director says), but I do think it’s true even if it was from my own thoughts. It was “Satan can counterfeit My voice but he can’t counterfeit My love.” I think this means Satan can imitate Jesus’ voice well enough that we might even think we are hearing Jesus but if we don’t experience that what we hear is said with love, it’s definitely not Him!

I would suggest that you read some of the writings of Julian of Norwich who was a Catholic mystic from the middle ages. Like St. Faustina, she really understood God’s great mercy. God would show her these little visions, she calls them her ‘shewings’ (showings), like little parables. Then He would let her understand what they meant. They are good to read because they kind of stick in your mind and help you to realize and remember how merciful God is.

Do go to see a good holy priest and a good therapist to help you sort out your spiritual, mental, and emotional confusion.

thank you for this now that I look back, there was nothing loving about the ‘voice’, and I didn’t at all get the impression that it’s the same Jesus who died on the Cross and rose again.

 

[Monica4316]

I remember something from St Faustina’s diary… she asked Jesus if He was an illusion, and He said “My love deceives no one.”

 

[Monica4316]

Is the (real) unforgiveable sin characterized by unrepentance? (ie: an unwillingness to repent)

just wondering

 

[Bob_Crowley]

One of the sings of demonic interference is an imperative tone. Do this or else! Think this or else! Who do you think you are to doubt what I’m telling you!! And so on.

I think you’ve got a scrpulous nature, and maybe some other problems, and the devil is playing on this. The alleged appearance of Christ saying you’ve cut yourself off etc. is a load of rubbish.

The devil, or more likely, one or more of his demons is playing games with your mind.

I’d ignore it if I were you.

 

[Monica4316]

I’m trying to ignore it yesterday at Mass, God really helped me to trust Him… but this morning, I woke up with a lot of fear again. There seem to be two ‘voices’ that are speaking in my mind… one of them is either demonic, or my imagination. The other might be Christ but I don’t know… when I turn to God with trust, - and remember His mercy, - He fills me with a lot of peace and confidence, and I feel that I’ve been listening to lies (when I was afraid). But sooner or later my doubts return. I’m going to speak with my priest tomorrow, I hope

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Is the (real) unforgiveable sin characterized by unrepentance? (ie: an unwillingness to repent)

Yes. However, we cannot know when someone is in this condition because everyone has free will and can repent until death.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

Monica, love, look at the title of your thread: “please help.” You know, I really feel like saying, “PLEASE HELP YOURSELF!” and “Please let God help you.” I have some of my own psychological issues. And one thing about them is that usually the person with the problem will lack something called “insight”- meaning that we VERY USUALLY do not see our mental problems for what they are. This is actually a symptom that psychologists look for. You need help. This is not normal or healthy, and not only a spiritual problem. Please contact both a priest and a mental health professional. You should have a very wise and experienced priest that you always talk to- the same priest every time- so that he can help you to discern these patterns and know what is from God, what is not from God. God wants to help you- and guess what? He has provided us with the advances and knowledge in mental health to be able to help. I know because I have been helped. I thought I was having spiritual problems too. I will pray for you. If you are interested I could relate in a PM some of my own experiences- I really do know this from experience. I realize you don’t want to hear this- but it would be a good exercise in humility to seek help. We are morally obligated to take care of our health and that does include mental health. These issues are far beyond the advice you will receive on this forum. God bless you!

Ellie Anne

 

[InLight247]

Monica, love, look at the title of your thread: “please help.” You know, I really feel like saying, “PLEASE HELP YOURSELF!” and “Please let God help you.”
Ellie Anne

Monica, that’s how I feel also by reading your multiple posts. You have started so many threads and asked so many questions. But what you really need is to get help from a good priest and a good professional counselor.

I was wondering, as a student, how do you find so much time online? It will be better if you can concentrate on your study, get your focus on the academics. If you occupy your mind with learning, at least you will have less time to dwell on your spiritual doubts whether created by the evil one or by yourself.

It seems the more you throw out questions on CAF, the more problems surface up. You just cannot expect to get real help from people online who have neither counseling background nor true identity. Many have advised you to seek pastoral and professional help. Please take heed. God bless!

 

[koshakoji]

I was wondering, as a student, how do you find so much time online? It will be better if you can concentrate on your study, get your focus on the academics. If you occupy your mind with learning, at least you will have less time to dwell on your spiritual doubts whether created by the evil one or by yourself.

Don’t you think it’s wrong to point out Monica’s online activities when she is asking for help? She probably doesn’t have class right now anyways, unless she is taking a May-term course. I am a college student and I took the whole month of May off.

Monica, I’ll be praying for you. Please get help soon.