Please pray for "transgender" CHILDREN

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Thankyou. I’m glad to see the few who do actually care here like you. But I’m dissapointed in the apathy with this subject here as well as other places in society. While I’m staying Catholic, I’m not very pleased with the typical Catholic attitude about this and aim to do what I can to improve that.
I have a pretty open mind, I always look at the evidence you present, and I always give it consideration. That said, I’m still not in agreement with all of your beliefs on this subject. I hope you understand, not everyone sees it as cut and dried. I will continue to follow your threads, because I do want to understand your POV, but please respect that not everyone arrives at the same conclusion upon careful examination of the arguments, and it’s not always because of bias or ignorance.
 
I have a pretty open mind, I always look at the evidence you present, and I always give it consideration. That said, I’m still not in agreement with all of your beliefs on this subject. I hope you understand, not everyone sees it as cut and dried. I will continue to follow your threads, because I do want to understand your POV, but please respect that not everyone arrives at the same conclusion upon careful examination of the arguments, and it’s not always because of bias or ignorance.
While you disagree, at least you have some kind of dialogue. Most others just disagree and refuse out right to listen or dialogue, and otherwise treat this as a non issue. People like me are not going to let it go away. Sooner or later most people are going to have to deal with it in some way shape or form in their lives, ie seeing one of us at your church, businesses you patronise, orwhen you read your health insurance policy and see things like transsexual surgery and couseling are covered. Waiting for that time to come is waiting too long to deal with it. It’s time to talk now!
 
While you disagree, at least you have some kind of dialogue. Most others just disagree and refuse out right to listen or dialogue, and otherwise treat this as a non issue. People like me are not going to let it go away. Sooner or later most people are going to have to deal with it in some way shape or form in their lives, ie seeing one of us at your church, businesses you patronise, orwhen you read your health insurance policy and see things like transsexual surgery and couseling are covered. Waiting for that time to come is waiting too long to deal with it. It’s time to talk now!
And from the reaction it looks like people would rather wait.
 
please respect that not everyone arrives at the same conclusion upon careful examination of the arguments, and it’s not always because of bias or ignorance.
Accepted without question.

Please though, could you state what your reasoning is? For one thing, if I’m wrong, I’d rather know.
 
While you disagree, at least you have some kind of dialogue. Most others just disagree and refuse out right to listen or dialogue, and otherwise treat this as a non issue. People like me are not going to let it go away. Sooner or later most people are going to have to deal with it in some way shape or form in their lives, ie seeing one of us at your church, businesses you patronise, orwhen you read your health insurance policy and see things like transsexual surgery and couseling are covered. Waiting for that time to come is waiting too long to deal with it. It’s time to talk now!
I can talk, not sure about what but I can. I work for a “transgender” friendly company though, we also are a “Christian” friendly one as well. Even “blue people” too…
 
We are not born mistakes. The flaws we have appear when we do not accept how we were willed by God to be (ex. male, female, or hermaphrodite) and impose our own imperfect standards of “perfection” toward ourselves. True happiness is acceptance with what you were born as and not what you feel you should have been. The existance of gender confusion stems from psychological disorders. We should try to address these and for christians we should teach our children and others that gender reassignment is a against the will of God, and that while we should all treat transgender people with love and respect that this does not mean we should support these disorders.

When it comes to the will of God we should not support things which are contrary to this will. This doesn not mean we cannot show love for our fellow man. Hate the sin not the sinner.

God Bless
 
We are not born mistakes. The flaws we have appear when we do not accept how we were willed by God to be
Heliotropium, birth defects occur. Do you really think that if a child is born with a cleft palate or hypospadias, that the deformity should be accepted as God’s will?
 
Heliotropium, birth defects occur. Do you really think that if a child is born with a cleft palate or hypospadias, that the deformity should be accepted as God’s will?
Yes the child was born with that deformity because God so willed it. This does not mean that God does not will that we help those with deformities. However Dale a persons gender is not a deformity.
 
Yes the child was born with that deformity because God so willed it. This does not mean that God does not will that we help those with deformities. However Dale a persons gender is not a deformity.
Those who are transsexual often insist that gender identity is from birth, and that if it is in disagreement with the assigned physical sex, then this mismatch is a birth defect.
 
Those who are transsexual often insist that gender identity is from birth, and that if it is in disagreement with the assigned physical sex, then this mismatch is a birth defect.
A persons gender identity is based off of what genitalia an indiviual is born with. No doctor in history as ever held up a baby that has a penis and said “hey this is a birth defect this girl should have a vagina”. Secondly children understand what sex they are based off their up brining, and social environment. If a child thinks it should be a boy when its a girl then this Child has a psychological dissorder! No medical journal or person with common sense would regard the persons perfectly fine genitalia as the deformity!
 
One question… why do you have these beliefs? What evidence do you have for them?
A persons gender identity is based off of what genitalia an indiviual is born with.
Even if it changes from natural causes? The most spectacular are the conditions such as 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3) which cause all infants to look (somewhat, mostly, or completely) female at birth, but the genetic males change to look (somewhat, mostly or completely) male by the time they’re 25. Male to female natural changes happen too, but they’re less than 1% of such changes in humans, and are not well understood as yet.

See
edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/17/gaza.gender.id/ for a video on the subject. Or usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html for some NSFW pictures showing how the genitalia changes. Or this video showing two intersexed people, including one of the rare female pseudo-hermaphrodites who naturally change from looking male at birth.
No doctor in history as ever held up a baby that has a penis and said “hey this is a birth defect this girl should have a vagina”.
They call it “clitoral reduction” and it’s quite commonly performed on girls with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. Regardless of the consequences:
Of 28 women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia 24 had undergone feminizing genital surgery. In women who underwent surgery there was significant impairment to sensitivity in the clitoris compared to controls. No difference was observed for the sensitivity threshold in the upper vagina, where surgery had not been done in any of the women. Data on the 4 women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia who had not undergone surgery were similar to those in controls. Sexual function difficulties were more severe in women who underwent surgery, especially vaginal penetration difficulties and intercourse frequency. Linear relationships were observed for impairment to sensitivity and severity of sexual difficulties.
  • Sexual Function and Genital Sensitivity Following Feminizing Genitoplasty for Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia The Journal of Urology, Volume 179, Issue 2, Pages 634-638 N. Crouch, L. Liao, C. Woodhouse, G. Conway, S. Creighton
Secondly children understand what sex they are based off their up brining, and social environment.
Perhaps you should look at the David Reimer case en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Your misunderstanding has had terrible consequences in the past:
… it was revealed that his most famous case involved fraudulent reporting by Money. The subject was the sex reassignment of David Reimer, in what later became known as the “John/Joan” case. Money reported that he had successfully reassigned Reimer as female after a botched infant circumcision in 1966. In 1997, Milton Diamond reported that the reassignment had failed, that Reimer had never identified as female or behaved in a typically feminine manner. At age 14, Reimer, who had fought against being forced to see Dr. Money since age 7, refused to see him again, threatening suicide if he were made to go. Reimer’s parents then decided to tell Reimer the truth about his past and his biological sex. Reimer immediately ended the hormone treatments he had been forced to undergo to stimulate female sex traits and began taking hormones to bring about the male puberty prevented by the removal of his testes by Dr. Money. He ceased using the name Brenda, which his parents had chosen for him after he began treatment with Dr. Money, and chose a new name, David. At 15, with a different medical team, he sought a mastectomy, testosterone therapy, and a phalloplasty. Later he married a woman who had children from a previous marriage and lived as a man until his suicide at age 38…
If a child thinks it should be a boy when its a girl then this Child has a psychological dissorder! No medical journal or person with common sense would regard the persons perfectly fine genitalia as the deformity!
Even if the genitalia was the only part of the body that was masculine, and the rest - the neurology, the endocrinology, the chromosomes, the internal reproductive system etc were female?

Gender Identity is something defined not between the legs, but between the ears.

Here, I’ll quote the abstract from Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35
The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
 
One question… why do you have these beliefs? What evidence do you have for them?
Hey Zoe,

I believe this because not one person can justify why a perfectly formed male or female would have a sexual reassignment surgery unless they suffered from a brain dissorder. Even the examples you have provided where individuals have been mistaken for males or females due to natural deformities do not justify why an individual who was born fully male or female would choose to reverse the natural function of their bodies. That is what transexuals do isn’t it? That is what we are talking about isn’t it? These people do not have natural deformities that need fixing! Their bodies aren’t naturally changing their reproductive sytems, or genitalia. There bodies aren’t naturally affecting their hormones! No they are doing it themselves! They are giving themselves hormone suppressing drugs and shots! They are getting brest implants, and sexual reassignment surgeries to change their naturaly functioning bodies! No your examples do not justify their actions. They have a psychological disorder and no one has been able to provide any evidence to support otherwise. .

God bless
 
I believe this because not one person can justify why a perfectly formed male or female would have a sexual reassignment surgery unless they suffered from a brain dissorder. Even the examples you have provided where individuals have been mistaken for males or females due to natural deformities do not justify why an individual who was born fully male or female would choose to reverse the natural function of their bodies. That is what transexuals do isn’t it? That is what we are talking about isn’t it? These people do not have natural deformities that need fixing!

They have a psychological disorder and no one has been able to provide any evidence to support otherwise.
Is someone who has a congenital abnormality in the visual cortex of the brain “psychologically disordered” because they can’t see? I think not.

Transsexuals are not “perfectly formed” males or females. They have cross-sexed neurology. There’s hundreds of papers on the subject, it’s not exactly controversial amongst neuro-anatomists. Most assume that everyone knows this. We can reliably induce transsexuality in experimental animals by suitable hormonal manipulation during foetal development.

Some of the many papers dealing with this issue:

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al *J Clin Endocrinol Metab *(2000) 85:2034–2041

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , Pages 56 - 59

Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism by Hare at al in Biol.Psych. Vol65, Issue 1, Pp 93-96

A pretty good guide for a layperson is Dick Swaab’s The atypical brain development of transsexuals. The sound-byte is “Female brain in male-looking body”.

See seminar s10 at the American Psychiatric Association annual meeting:
S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism
  1. Brain Gender Identity Prof. Sidney W. Ecker, M.D.
  2. Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition Prof Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
  3. Novel Approaches to Endocrine Treatment of Transgender Adolescents and Adults Norman Spack, M.D.
As Sid Ecker wrote to me:
Yes, we gave our presentation to 60 plus psychiatrists from the US, AU, FR, IT, EU, UK, Holland etc.
We spoke for 2 1/2 hours on why cross gender identity was a normal inherited variation of humans. We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex. We presented internationally accepted guidelines for hormonal treatment of transsexuals to be published Summer 2009.
Here are my slides and with my participants’ permission I shall send you theirs. We are now in print in the APA Syllabus and soon in the APA Journal this summer. I am checking if we were recorded.
My greatest personal compliment came from Frank Kruijver, from Holland, whose research of the human brain in TSs started it all. He thought we have taken his work very far in our understanding of the human brain. Hope you can do something with this.
Sid Ecker, M.D.
To insist that a woman with this condition should somehow acquire male reflexes, male instincts, a male sense of hearing and sense of smell because her body appears male externally is as futile - and as unfair - as insisting that someone born with no legs could walk if they really tried. The problem is not psychological, it’s anatomical.
 
A persons gender identity is based off of what genitalia an indiviual is born with. No doctor in history as ever held up a baby that has a penis and said “hey this is a birth defect this girl should have a vagina”. Secondly children understand what sex they are based off their up brining, and social environment. If a child thinks it should be a boy when its a girl then this Child has a psychological dissorder! No medical journal or person with common sense would regard the persons perfectly fine genitalia as the deformity!
Ah yes medieval philosephy and ideals at their best! Leave the dark ages in the dark ages, we know better and have learned since then.
 
Thanks you Zoe for the information. I do not disagree with the information that states it is a brain dissorder. I believe that transsexualism in most cases is the result of a dissorder in someoens chemical makeup in their brains, and that in certain cases it is also due to psychological issues. Regardless of this we see that the problem area for these individuals is the brain and we should be focusing on this. Sexual reassignment surgery does not change a persons sex, and these men and women still have male reproductive systems, or vice versa female reproductive systems after these cosmetic surgeries. Sexual reassignment surgery is the mutilation of ones perfectly functional reproductive system in order to appease their chemically or psychologically disordered brain. This surgery is contrary to Gods natural law and is thus contrary to His Will. If there is nothing that can be done regarding this brain dissorder then individuals with transsexual tendencies are called to carry their crosses (like homosexuals are called to) and offer up their burden as a sacrifice to God.

An example of the call to carry ones cross I will use my own issue which I do not like to make public but will so you can understand what Christians are called to do… I am a male and I have homosexual tendencies. Weather I have been born this way or weather I have psychological issues is in the end irrelevant to the point which is that I’m still responsible for my actions! My homosexual tendencies do not take away my free will nor my responsibility as a Christian to follow Gods commandments. My condition does not render me void from my obligations as a Christian and my natural attraction to the same sex would not excuse my responsibility for my actions. The same goes for those who are transgender. We must follow hat Christ wants not what we want. Conformity to the divine Will is key.

God bless
 
It wasn’t so very long ago that the psychological community thought child molesters could be cured with therapies. The results, as we now know, were not good, but a lot of damage got done because of that belief.

I’m not a psychologist, but I strongly suspect that (except perhaps in the cases of true hermaphroditism, which I believe is exceedingly rare) one day this whole business or “gender reassignment” will be recognized as a big mistake. But by then, of course, all the damage will have been done.
 
It wasn’t so very long ago that the psychological community thought child molesters could be cured with therapies. The results, as we now know, were not good, but a lot of damage got done because of that belief.

I’m not a psychologist, but I strongly suspect that (except perhaps in the cases of true hermaphroditism, which I believe is exceedingly rare) one day this whole business or “gender reassignment” will be recognized as a big mistake. But by then, of course, all the damage will have been done.
Except it’s the ones who still believe that this anatomical problem can be cured by psychological means who were responsible for the Church’s position on both. I mean in particular Dr Paul McHugh, former advisor to the Vatican on matters sexual, who still believes that both paedophiles and intersexed people can both be cured by psychotherapy and prayer. We just haven’t tried hard enough, over the last 60 years, and we’ll find the cure any day now.

No-one believes the current surgery is ideal. Our medical techniques cannot give fertility (I say “give” instead of “restore”, as a significant minority of transsexual people have overt intersex conditions as well).

But without it, between 1 in 3 and 1 in 2 die horrible, miserable, lingering deaths. The rest just pray for death.

The problem is that a female anatomical neurology, and a male endocrinology and hormone system cause progressive neurological dysfunction. The patient can feel their mind rotting, and there’s no drug that can delay the process. Some anti-depressants can help the patient cope with the depression from knowing their mind is slowly disintegrating, but in general, the improvement is minor. About 1 in 3 suicide that we know of, with “accidental deaths” accounting for rather more, and stress-related conditions more still.

Here’s a quote from a therapist in the area, describing the progressive dysfunction when “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”.
Secondly, “Dysphoria,” defined by Marriam-Webster’s Collegiate dictionary as “a state of feeling unwell or unhappy,” or in the American College Dictionary as “a state of dissatisfaction, anxiety, restlessness, or fidgeting” is simply too soft a word to describe the angst most clinicians see on intake with this population. At best it may be an apt descriptor for individuals who, despite strong evidence to the contrary, are making an extraordinary effort to convince themselves that they are sex/gender congruent. These individuals make life decisions such as getting married and having children not only because they may find it appealing to have a spouse and have children but with the added hope that this activity will ease or erase their obsessive cross gender thoughts. Although there may be instances where these special efforts succeed, (i.e. the incongruity is mild) the more likely outcome is a realization they have actually made matters worse. Typically, at time of presentation these individuals report that either their lives are in ruin, or they are very afraid that if their gender variant condition was to become known they would loose all that they cherish and be ostracized from family, friends and the ability to support themselves. High anxiety and deep depression with concurrent suicide ideation is common. One of the most extreme cases I have treated was that of a 50 year old genetic male, married and the father of 3 grown children with an international reputation as a scientist who reported to me that the reason he finally sought out treatment for his gender issues was because the number of times he found himself curled up in the corner of his office in the fetal position muffling his cry was increasing. That is not dysphoria, that is pure misery.
Hormones in sufficient doses to prevent this effect will change the body. This is especially true for the boys, but it sterilises both in most (not quote all) cases. The question then arises whether it would be good for society, and for the Church, to have women with male genitalia and men with female genitalia. Especially if they themselves feel that situation is horribly uncomfortable, and wish to remedy their deformity.

Even the Church, in its official policy (issued sub secretum) based on the mistaken notion that there was no biological basis, has stated that sex reassignment surgery is morally licit “in severe cases”. This appears to mean all cases of transsexuality (as opposed to cross-dressing, transvestite fetishism, genderqueer, and political transgenderism).
 
Oh one more thing - that applies in mild cases, where the problem is not obvious in childhood.

The “Primary Transsexuals”, those where the problem is obvious in childhood, and persists through age 10… they’re all dead by age 30 without treatment. Most are dead by age 25. At least half have attempted suicide by age 20.

I’m a member of a number of support groups. I know a scarce handful of cases who were “Primary Transsexuals” and managed to get treatment in the 60’s and 70’s. They in turn knew hundreds of their cohort. All are dead, every single one, apart from the lucky few who managed to obtain treatment before age 25. When I say “all are dead by age 30” I mean it, it’s certainly over 99%, and I know of not a single survivor.

One did make it till age 25 before surgery. But that’s only because the gun she’d put in her mouth misfired.

Genital reconstruction that causes sterility is, I admit, a desperation measure. We are just very fortunate that the cure rate is about 98%, far higher than any other surgical technique that deals with equally deadly conditions.

I can’t be objective though. I’m Intersexed, and although anatomically female (more so than male anyway), I looked almost completely male until my late puberty in 2005, at age 47. I was effectively transsexual, and suffered the slow degeneration of the mind that they feel. Relatively mild though, no more than one day in 30 being completely dysfunctional. I think I might have made it to age 50, maybe even 55 before stress related illness killed me, as I was so eager for it to do. By then I would have been in an institution of course, unable to feed myself, and unable to do more than sob uncontrollably till death came.

Instead… my body changed, my endocrine system normalised, and I was cured. Oh, I needed some surgery to replumb the genitalia, by then it was a mess, and parts were a cancer risk that had to be removed anyway. Bottom line - I’ve experienced what Transsexual people go through. While there are worse things - the death of a child for example - it’s not just the misery: it’s the physiological dysfunction.
 
All this proof and people persist in their darkages type beliefs. You are just too intellegent for many here Zoe.
 
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