Please Rewrite Gay Marriage FAQ

[The_Word]

According to you Ananias and Sapphira were saints after all they were members (beleivers) in the early church. …but wait they sinned opps back to the drawing board for you.

Lol at you the catholic saints aren’t choosen but rather it is a declaration of their saintliness.

let’s get back to the topic my apologies to the OP:blush:

 

[The_Word]

Well good. Then what did you put into action based on His teaching here?

• Matthew 18:15,
• Leviticus 19:17,
• James 5:20,
• Luke 17:3,
• 1 Timothy 5:20,
• 2 Timothy 4:2,
• Galatians 6:1,
• Proverbs 12:15,
• 2 Kings 12:1-14,
• 2 Kings 16:5-12, and
• Tobias 4:19.

And there are others.

What do scriptures have anything to do with what I said? I get all my understanding from God and not from men.

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?”
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man’s will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
18: He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.

John 14:
9: Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’?
10: Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
11: Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
25: "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 16
7: Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8: And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
10: concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more;
11: concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12: "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13: When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
14: He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
15: All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Only the saints and prophets were created with Christ as the Word of God. Check these scriptures out. This is why I get all my understanding directly from God without the need for scriptures. I only use scriptures to admonish sinning Christians and teach them correct interpretations.

Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6: to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

[josephryungk]

well, let’s see, if a phobia is a fear that is irrational, how is wanting to prevent gay people from having the same rights “rational”?

I’m told by the church that gays’ love is “inferior”.
certainly not very rational

I’m told their love is “evil”
love evil? not very rational

they’re destroying marriage?
how is that rational?

tolerating this is leading to a moral breakdown of society?
Huh? How?

I could go on and on, but could you please tell me what exactly is rational about any of the catholic arguments to not tolerate someone else’ love for someone?
How is calling me evil because I feel a certain way rational?

 

[The_Word]

well, let’s see, if a phobia is a fear that is irrational, how is wanting to prevent gay people from having the same rights “rational”?

I’m told by the church that gays’ love is “inferior”.
certainly not very rational

I’m told their love is “evil”
love evil? not very rational

they’re destroying marriage?
how is that rational?

tolerating this is leading to a moral breakdown of society?
Huh? How?

I could go on and on, but could you please tell me what exactly is rational about any of the catholic arguments to not tolerate someone else’ love for someone?
How is calling me evil because I feel a certain way rational?

The church consists of all sinners, including all the popes and his Vatican boys. It says in the Bible to not bear false witness against they neighbors. This means that no sinners have the right to judge anyone. If these church leaders don’t believe this, then all you need to do is show them their idol worshipping that is also breaking the commandments of God. Their churches, altars, candle abras, eucharist, crosses, statues of deity, paintings of deity, and any other man-made thing in their churches or around their necks are idols. According to their logic, which has nothing to do with the truth, gay people could judge them for being heretics, false prophets, liars, and the antichrists because that’s what they are.

 

[Diotima]

Think about it, Christ called certain sinners " A nest of vipers". That was an infinitely loving act. It was even infinitely charitable, in the ‘caritas’ origin of the word. He overturned tables with a whip in His hand.

All of that was infinite love, it was part of loving the sinner.

A key part of love is pointing out when a brother is sinning, when they are placing their soul in mortal danger. In fact, if you truely LOVE the sinner, you cannot keep silent about it.

Christ did not, and we cannot either.

Yes, telling the truth is an act of love! It means that we love the person’s immortal soul and want something infinitely better for him than sin and Hell.

Christ had different ways of telling the truth to sinners. Sometimes he used strong language, calling them “vipers,” “robbers,” or “Satan.” Other times, he spoke less harshly, yet still directly and truthfully. For instance, he simply told the woman caught in adultery “go, and sin no more.” He didn’t call her a whore.

When telling the truth to homosexuals, I think we should avoid insults and instead speak with compassion and empathy. We need to be mindful of the fact that they’ve already endured insults and abuse. My gay friends in high school, for instance, were called nasty words, pelted with garbage, and sometimes even physically injured. And the gay rights movement preys on this trauma. They tell gay people that Christians are responsible for this abuse, that gays can only find love and compassion through the gay rights movement and its supporters. (Just see this article by Dan Savage: thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/10/01/sl-letter-of-the-day-sorry-nothing-fun)

Personally, I like the idea of a Catholic version of the It Gets Better project, which I think was mentioned upthread. My video would say something like, “I know you’re feeling alone right now. You feel lonely when you think of how you’re going to miss out on a spouse or the blessing of children. You feel lonely when you’re tormented and rejected at school. You feel lonely because you don’t understand why these urges had to be given to you. But you don’t have to feel alone. Jesus knows how it feels to suffer, and sometimes through suffering we can become closer to Him. He sent a ‘thorn in the flesh’ to His follower Paul, telling him ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness’ (2 Corinthians 12). You too can become perfect in weakness by showing the world that these urges don’t have to stop you from being a good, chaste Christian. And you will be rewarded in Heaven for your suffering and struggles here on earth.”

 

[josephryungk]

but you all keep talking about your “truth” as interpreted by your church.

I deal with my truth, my nature and your irrational interest in my life. I got a U.S. constitution saying that I do not have to follow your religion, yet your church calls me evil and says I don’t deserve rights.
Looks pretty vain to me, glad I’m pointing out your sin of vanity.
looks like you’re also taking a lot of liberty with what God actually says, taking his name in vain is a sin too.
Why are you not working on your own sins rather than legislating what you think mine are?

 

[The_Word]

Yes, telling the truth is an act of love! It means that we love the person’s immortal soul and want something infinitely better for him than sin and Hell.

Christ had different ways of telling the truth to sinners. Sometimes he used strong language, calling them “vipers,” “robbers,” or “Satan.” Other times, he spoke less harshly, yet still directly and truthfully. For instance, he simply told the woman caught in adultery “go, and sin no more.” He didn’t call her a whore.

When telling the truth to homosexuals, I think we should avoid insults and instead speak with compassion and empathy. We need to be mindful of the fact that they’ve already endured insults and abuse. My gay friends in high school, for instance, were called nasty words, pelted with garbage, and sometimes even physically injured. And the gay rights movement preys on this trauma. They tell gay people that Christians are responsible for this abuse, that gays can only find love and compassion through the gay rights movement and its supporters. (Just see this article by Dan Savage: thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/10/01/sl-letter-of-the-day-sorry-nothing-fun)

Personally, I like the idea of a Catholic version of the It Gets Better project, which I think was mentioned upthread. My video would say something like, “I know you’re feeling alone right now. You feel lonely when you think of how you’re going to miss out on a spouse or the blessing of children. You feel lonely when you’re tormented and rejected at school. You feel lonely because you don’t understand why these urges had to be given to you. But you don’t have to feel alone. Jesus knows how it feels to suffer, and sometimes through suffering we can become closer to Him. He sent a ‘thorn in the flesh’ to His follower Paul, telling him ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness’ (2 Corinthians 12). You too can become perfect in weakness by showing the world that these urges don’t have to stop you from being a good, chaste Christian. And you will be rewarded in Heaven for your suffering and struggles here on earth.”

I get banned from forums all the time because of the gospel I preach. No one likes the truth and yet, it’s the love of God. The love of God is the knowledge of God but sinners hate to hear the truth after growing up with all those lies around them. The religious Jews couldn’t stand to hear the the truth and it made them jealous. This is the reason Jesus was put to death.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Just point of information on the earlier discussion of sin vs. sinner:

I’m unambiguosly straight, and unambiguously – like the rest of humanity – a sinner. If someone loves me (as does God, as do many people) they do not love my many sins, or any of them – whether those be sexual or nonsexual sins. If they declare that, or treat me as if, they love my sins, then I clearly see that they do not love me.

As to the Catholicity of the phrase, see here:

www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/St.%20Augustine

 

[Diotima]

How is calling me evil because I feel a certain way rational?

There is nothing evil about homosexual feelings or attraction. Feelings are beyond a person’s control; only actions are subject to our free will. Therefore it is only homosexual acts, not feelings, that we see as a sin.

I’ll let someone else explain why these acts are sins; there are some apologists on this board who can probably explain it better than I would. However, keep in mind that calling something a sin isn’t necessarily vanity. Saying “the Bible says this is a sin in Romans 1:26” is just pointing out a fact; it doesn’t mean that the person who points this out is claiming to be free from sin himself, or wants to stone people to death for that particular sin.

I got a U.S. constitution saying that I do not have to follow your religion

Yes, the First Amendment says that Congress cannot establish a religion. However, it also guarantees free exercise of religion. Current gay rights laws deny the free exercise of religion to Catholics. For instance, in D.C. and in Massachusetts, Catholic Charities was forced to stop performing adoptions because it did not approve of same-sex couples (weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/191kgwgh.asp). So gay marriage isn’t just about letting others have their privacy or their freedom. It takes away freedom–religious freedom.

 

[josephryungk]

“Current gay rights laws deny the free exercise of religion to Catholics.”

Um, what laws are those? Please list.

Right now your church wants to impose your church rules on me, against the constitution.
You can go right ahead and practice whatever religion you want, but my living and enjoying the same rights as you is what the constitution is about, not imposing your religion on me.

 

[josephryungk]

by the way, I have a right to adopt, should I choose, that does not interfere with your religion, but your religion wants to interfere with my right?

what your religion tells you is your problem, there’s no constitutional nor rational reason why you should make it mine.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The difference is that homosexuality is something that runs to the core of who a person is; their sexual identity. regardless of whether or not they act upon it.

With all due respect, LCMS – and I continue to pray for you, and I say that with no condescension whatsoever, but with affection – that statement is born from the “science” of modern psychology and is, in addition, a subjective statement which cannot be verified. If it were empirically true, then every single soldier in the Roman Empire was “born gay” and every male of any prominence in the ancient Greek empire was as well. And what do we do with all the male prisoners in this country who engage in homosexual behavior while in prison (those who do so voluntarily, not raped)? Do we say that, Wow, look what a prison sentence did for them? It allowed them to discover, for the very first time, their hidden homosexuality that ran core to their identity – but whoops, I guess prison was the first time they noticed that.

The vast majority of homosexual behavior in ancient Rome and ancient Greece was engaged in by heterosexual males, who had wives and who preferred women as sexual partners. Ditto for those in Hitler’s army who did so. Ditto for all the heterosexual male prisoners who have done so, and do so regularly, and return home to wives or girlfriends whom they prefer. In some situations and in some societies, past and present, the option to practice those sexual behaviors, and the frequency of their practice, is an aspect of status, privilege, popularity, power, conformity, etc.

I have always loved music. I don’t remember when I “chose” to love music, so since I don’t remember that, is that evidence that I was “born” loving music? Yet I consider that love of music – as a subjective perception – one of the core aspects of my identity. I was surrounded by excellent music as a very young child, and probably even *in utero *-- since my parents had classy taste in music. Maybe environmentally I was disposed to love music; maybe it wasn’t something in my genes. That’s something about me that neither your nor I will ever know in this lifetime, for certainty.

Saying that homosexuality is a “disordered” condition is essentially saying that a person, at their core, is defective. Granted, the Church does make the distinction, but most people don’t understand that and talk about homosexual people in ways that are unbelievably cruel.

I agree that too many people fail to understand the correct distinctions that the Church makes, and use those distinctions inappropriately to express a personal immoral rejection. But some of us do understand the distinctions and can balance these without compromise to the love commandment. Let me explain, just for myself:

I have gay acquaintances and friends. One of them is even a very trusted, close family friend, whom we all embrace though we are all very clear that he is gay. That even included my father before his death, who initially rejected this man for his lifestyle, but came to love him so much that he “thought of him as a son.” He even willed some personal belongings to him. And after my father’s death now, I continue to feel genuine affection for this man. I stay overnight at his house and keep up with his life and his hurts and joys. We have discussed gender differences, with which he and I agree. We have never discussed sexuality. I would never presume to bring up such a sensitive subject unless he himself introduced it and wished to discuss it.

I have landlords who are probably gay partners, although they haven’t come out and said that explicitly, nor is it any of my business to inquire. I regard them exactly the same as I regard all straight men. I don’t recoil from them; I don’t avoid them; I’m not repelled by them in the slightest. But we don’t get into discussions about their lifestyle; it’s not material. They function as my landlords. They have not asked my opinion on gay issues in the news or any such thing. And, if they did, LCMS, I would respond charitably. I would state up front that I am fond of them as human beings and would run into the street for them if I saw a car coming, just as I would for someone I knew to be straight. There is no difference for me. But I would state politely that I have some differences for them on political issues, and understand it might upset them to hear my opinions, and that if they do want to hear my opinion on issues, I will offer it and does not reduce my affection for them as human beings.

If I with my insufficient and finite level of love am capable of loving people whose behavior and weaknesses (any weaknesses or tendencies, not just sexual) I believe to be immoral, how much more does God love you, me, and my gay friends? Infinitely more. He sees your struggle and loves you the more for it.

 

[Diotima]

Um, what laws are those? Please list.

I provided a link explaining the issue. Basically, the states in question allowed same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption. Catholic Charities, as a private religious organization, did not interfere with state adoptions to same-sex couples or with same-sex marriage, but it chose not to serve those couples. The states told Catholic Charities that it couldn’t do that–in other words, it had to actively support same-sex adoptions, even though this was against its religious beliefs.

This has happened in several U.S. states as well as Great Britain.

 

[Abu]

The Word
no sinners have the right to judge anyone

Failure to know what Christ teaches is at the root of many problems.
Such a grave error is a sure sign of incompetence, or unconcern and dissent in morality.

It seems that there is no end to the deconstruction of Christ and His Church, but so that others may not be misled similarly, Jesus and His Church have made it quiet clear for us here also through Her Sacred Scriptures.
Christ commanded us to
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

And St Paul, following the Master:
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).
“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).
“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).
“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).
“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

That is precisely why we judge actions, speech, writing against true teaching to determine what is good and what is evil.

 

[Abu]

josephryungk
Why are you not working on your own sins rather than legislating what you think mine are?
I have a right to adopt, should I choose

Why should anyone respect anyone else’s rights? What is the reason for respecting rights?

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Not a bad idea, maybe “Charity and Truth and the Five Non-Negotiables”.

“Love” and “Compassion” as terms have been corrupted and defined down to meaningless relativity.

I cheerfully agree.

Still, it’s more than likely that posting any such statement or FAQ will not have any appreciable effect on poster behavior. Sure to follow is the ever hollow recommendation of “we need to send a message, set a tone, create an atmosphere of tolerance, compassion, diversity, respect, blah blah.” It’s a natural reflex, but it’s unfailingly infertile.

How do we make it fertile? Also, I figure that the audience would not be posters in this particular forum, though if they find use all the better, but rather everyone searching “catholic teaching homsexuality love sinner” on Google.

I believe there must be a way to follow Jesus’ example on the issue of homosexuality. There must be a way to protect gay teenagers from the violence and abusive language they currently suffer at school, or to protect gay adults from gratuitously cruel attacks launched by people like Fred Phelps, while at the same time telling them that we love them too much to “tolerate” their sin.

Exactly my dilemma.

When telling the truth to homosexuals, I think we should avoid insults and instead speak with compassion and empathy. We need to be mindful of the fact that they’ve already endured insults and abuse. My gay friends in high school, for instance, were called nasty words, pelted with garbage, and sometimes even physically injured. And the gay rights movement preys on this trauma. They tell gay people that Christians are responsible for this abuse, that gays can only find love and compassion through the gay rights movement and its supporters. (Just see this article by Dan Savage: thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/10/01/sl-letter-of-the-day-sorry-nothing-fun)

I read that too … that sarcastic, mocking tone of all faith everywhere is exactly the sort of disenfranchising I worry about. Not only do gay people face ostracization from God from believers but also from the gay community who, as a whole, roundly rejects God because of His believers. This rejection of God is by far a more serious sin, by definition, and it is this I believe we can affect.

The news narrative is that religious groups approve of and defend the Arkansas school board member who said he enjoys it when gay kids kill themselves, and Catholic.com needs an example of how this is not — let’s be honest, should not be — true of Catholics.

 

[fbl9]

snip…
The news narrative is that religious groups approve of and defend the Arkansas school board member who said he enjoys it when gay kids kill themselves, and Catholic.com needs an example of how this is not — let’s be honest, should not be — true of Catholics.

When any person kills themselves one should be truly saddened, regardless how the suicide victim lived.
True love wants not hell but heaven.
If people could realise that they are no less a sinner than homosexual person maaybe the truth could be better conveyed.

 

[cargau]

Looking over for resources in a recent argument I had on Gay Marriage, I searched around and found this particular article.

catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp

When I glanced at it at first, I decided to my dismay that I can’t use this as an easy link in an argument. It isn’t because I disagree with anything that is said — the content is surely line with Catholic teaching — but rather because the tone is entirely devoid of compassion, as so many against Gay Marriage talk. It spends its entire time hating the sin.

While that’s the purpose of the article, being devoid of love for the sinner is worse than hating the sinner in this instance, I believe, because a pro-gay marriage reader’s mind will run rampant and conflate the worst abuse towards gay people, ready to accuse the Catholic Church of hating gay people in the worst ways possible — there’s no evidence to the contrary.

Again, I’m not asking that we consider removing the essential position or even any part of the arguments, but I firmly believe that if we are to bear truest witness to God’s love for all sinners we mustn’t be so harsh. At the very least, we must add several paragraphs throughout reminding the reader, no matter the political persuasion, that Catholics are called to love the sinner. The answer to the question about homophobia is far too dry to be of any real help, I believe. While there are rational arguments which support our position, they are both cold and dry, and only reinforce the image of the Catholic Church as distant and out of touch with the very real human beings with whose borne cross we should sympathize.

In this article, we must at least in brief explain the difference in practice between loving the sin and hating the sinner, emphasis on the former, for at least the sake of Catholics rightly against gay marriage who seek this resource. We need the constant reminder to love the sinner as much as we need the dogma to know to refuse to condone a sin.

Specifically:

&c.

Moreover, putting marriage in quotation marks is polemic and just plain bad writing. This will only drive those in favor of gay marriage further away.

Thoughts?

Exactly how should this love of sinner be manifested? Most pro gay rights pundits will tell you about tolerance while accusing anyone who may dissent as a bigot.

Funny, but there is no tolerance for different opinions. Anyway, let’s talk about the sinner. First, we must acknowledge that persons who actively engage in the homosexual lifestyle are, in fact sinners. Since grave matter is in play, there is a real danger that these people are being separated from their God. Now, is it more loving to embrace their lifestyle in the name of tolerance or is it more Godly to help them to repent and avoid actions that are spiritually deadly?

I believe that the latter is what it means to love the sinner…

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Exactly how should this love of sinner be manifested? Most pro gay rights pundits will tell you about tolerance while accusing anyone who may dissent as a bigot.

Funny, but there is no tolerance for different opinions. Anyway, let’s talk about the sinner. First, we must acknowledge that persons who actively engage in the homosexual lifestyle are, in fact sinners.

As is every single person born on this planet, save two.

Since grave matter is in play, there is a real danger that these people are being separated from their God.

Not only is it grave matter, but they are acts of “grave depravity.”

NO OTHER SINS ARE DESCRIBED BY THE CHURCH IN THIS WAY! Check it out. Do a search of the CCC and you’ll see that only homosexual acts are “grave depravity.”

I wonder if a homosexual person’s sins count as double and their penances only for half.

Now, is it more loving to embrace their lifestyle in the name of tolerance or is it more Godly to help them to repent and avoid actions that are spiritually deadly?

I believe that the latter is what it means to love the sinner…

The question is now you do it.

 

[Abu]

LCMS_No_More
Not only is it grave matter, but they are acts of “grave depravity.” NO OTHER SINS ARE DESCRIBED BY THE CHURCH IN THIS WAY! Check it out

No wonder there is so much misinformation and confusion – so little is known by those who mislead others.
Check the references to CCC #2357: Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the grave depravity of sodomy – the acts are “intrinsically disordered”. St Paul is equally blunt.
Christ was extremely severe with His Apostles, on occasion.

Pope Pius XI’s Encyclical Casti Connubii, 1930, teaches infallibly (#56) that “any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.”