Plight of Catholocism under the British System

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Clevus

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newadvent.org/cathen/11611c.htm
Code: 
 A commentary on the historical treatment of Catholics. (Usually I use more sources than this for a commentary, but this says enough.)

 I have just read something in New Advent that has shocked me more than all the stories I read on abuse and religious injustice. The fallout of this horror still exists today in the form of Catholic bigotry in the U.S., but mostly in England, and to a lesser way, Ireland. To think England was the seat of the governing systems has we know them in America. I couldn't understand the aversion to Catholicism in Lincoln's time, and I noted again in Kennedy's. For me it could only be that residual bigotry passed on down from a British source somewhere way back.

Like every western Catholic, I read of the 6 years of the horror of the Jewish holocaust, and their oppression under Hitler's Germany. I read of the Neuremburg Trials, and it stuck in my mind a statement made by Goering to a British guard who verbally thrashed him on the existence of concentration camps. He simply responded with a calm voice that the Brits were the first to start them during the Boer War. Now, I was sympathetic to the Brits having family ancestry relations traced to there. My sister finds great fun and takes pride in her knowledge of the British royal ancestry, with the Queen's picture everywhere.
I invite the readers themselves to do their own research. I actually plead to hear that I am wrong, But I think not. Growing up, the elders of my family harbored their biases and I could not understand it. My French and staunch Catholic ancestors held the English with revulsion. My Quebec relatives complained about only holding menial jobs and never being able to obtain promotions. Meanwhile the Irish are even now trying to live has citizens in a similar biased situation, The Troubles I thought were simply a disgruntled terrorist group causing unrest. The world now can’t understand the unrest in that part of the world. No kinder and peace loving people you will find in the Irish, and my paternal grandmother who came over from Ireland alone.

But after reading this, I have grown to detest all the Brits represent. It explains the spikes in the chart of hate, where someone in the BBC comes to attack any commentary on anything coming from the Pope. I could not understand the odds that double the vitriol spews out of this nation than others against the Pope.

I think ISIS pails by the collective centuries of abuse of the Irish,Indus,Chinese,French Canadians, and their colonial nations soon to become Nations(U.S.). They ensured their hatred crossed oceans. They enacted Acts of in everything they did. Acadians suffered disruption because of their “I order you to say you like me” hoaths of allegiance. No respect for American commerce, the massacre of East Indians because they didn’t “like them”. It acted like a brat, and now it’s 400 year compounding from the prime spoiled brat Henry VIII gave birth to evil. Even the loyal head choppers eventually found their end as well. The Devil awarded his “Defender of the False”. It’s a wonder no one saw into it all.

I have a new outlook on that camouflaged nation. I am thankful for the revelation, now I have a few years of undoing the misinformation in my family.

Other reading: St. Thomas More and others, Catholic Emancipation, Penal Acts.
 
Not all English are like this. I come from Irish and Spanish Catholics. I was appalled to find discrimination in early America against all Catholics; Irish, Italian, Polish and most recently, Mexican.
 
My patron-Fathers lived during a rising of anti-popery. Two of them were converts and it cost them much to do so. The third was cradle-Catholic (in fact a direct descendant of St. Thomas More) and as priest and bishop, knew the bitterness his flock endured.

But not all the British were intolerant and there are accounts of non-Catholics helping and supporting the Catholics as best as they could in dangerous times.
 
My ancestors lived in Southern Germany and Italy, don’t get me started on the naughtiness of Catholics.

Or on the other hand . . . perhaps there comes a time when getting angry about the past becomes self-destructive rather than anything else?
 
I remember during the Kennedy election hearing people discussing whether or not Kennedy would be more loyal to the pope than to the US. Even though America broke away from Englands Royal traditions, the class system stayed. But as others point out, the past shouldn’t be an excuse to continue discrimination.

I’m sure the roots were the establishment of Protestantism by Henry the Eighth…can’t justify something new without villifying the old…
 
Clevus said:
newadvent.org/cathen/11611c.htm
Code: 
 A commentary on the historical treatment of Catholics. (Usually I use more sources than this for a commentary, but this says enough.)

 I have just read something in New Advent that has shocked me more than all the stories I read on abuse and religious injustice. The fallout of this horror still exists today in the form of Catholic bigotry in the U.S., but mostly in England, and to a lesser way, Ireland. To think England was the seat of the governing systems has we know them in America. I couldn't understand the aversion to Catholicism in Lincoln's time, and I noted again in Kennedy's. For me it could only be that residual bigotry passed on down from a British source somewhere way back.

Like every western Catholic, I read of the 6 years of the horror of the Jewish holocaust, and their oppression under Hitler's Germany. I read of the Neuremburg Trials, and it stuck in my mind a statement made by Goering to a British guard who verbally thrashed him on the existence of concentration camps. He simply responded with a calm voice that the Brits were the first to start them during the Boer War. Now, I was sympathetic to the Brits having family ancestry relations traced to there. My sister finds great fun and takes pride in her knowledge of the British royal ancestry, with the Queen's picture everywhere.
I invite the readers themselves to do their own research. I actually plead to hear that I am wrong, But I think not. Growing up, the elders of my family harbored their biases and I could not understand it. My French and staunch Catholic ancestors held the English with revulsion. My Quebec relatives complained about only holding menial jobs and never being able to obtain promotions. Meanwhile the Irish are even now trying to live has citizens in a similar biased situation, The Troubles I thought were simply a disgruntled terrorist group causing unrest. The world now can’t understand the unrest in that part of the world. No kinder and peace loving people you will find in the Irish, and my paternal grandmother who came over from Ireland alone.

But after reading this, I have grown to detest all the Brits represent. It explains the spikes in the chart of hate, where someone in the BBC comes to attack any commentary on anything coming from the Pope. I could not understand the odds that double the vitriol spews out of this nation than others against the Pope.

I think ISIS pails by the collective centuries of abuse of the Irish,Indus,Chinese,French Canadians, and their colonial nations soon to become Nations(U.S.). They ensured their hatred crossed oceans. They enacted Acts of in everything they did. Acadians suffered disruption because of their “I order you to say you like me” hoaths of allegiance. No respect for American commerce, the massacre of East Indians because they didn’t “like them”. It acted like a brat, and now it’s 400 year compounding from the prime spoiled brat Henry VIII gave birth to evil. Even the loyal head choppers eventually found their end as well. The Devil awarded his “Defender of the False”. It’s a wonder no one saw into it all.

I have a new outlook on that camouflaged nation. I am thankful for the revelation, now I have a few years of undoing the misinformation in my family.

Other reading: St. Thomas More and others, Catholic Emancipation, Penal Acts.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget to revile the Catholic Church for all the evil it did throughout history .
 
Who enjoys bringing to light such history?. I should think at some point in time someone needs to state there is a disease in order to apply a remedy. At any point in England’s history the people could have collectively protested. A holocaust victim finalized her TV interview by saying that these events should never be forgotten, and that is true. I had my grandchildren learn of this black stain in human history. The Books of Wisdom warn monarchs of temptations unique to governance. One would have thought that the birth of parliamentary democracies would improve the nation. When it was adopted, the people hoped fair representation would be born, but discovered that it simply offered to the king the convenience of packaging groups into bundles of shared opinions for targeting purposes.

More important to this forum is the Church’s reaction to the acts of collectives and individuals in our time. Now that we have a clear picture of what the Church deems as tolerant and intolerant, and who constitutes an ally in her cause, we should expect the standard should be applied dependent on the same spectrum of circumstances and mores that play out today. We will see.

Thanks all for your thoughts.
 
Clevus said:
Who enjoys bringing to light such history?. I should think at some point in time someone needs to state there is a disease in order to apply a remedy. At any point in England’s history the people could have collectively protested. A holocaust victim finalized her TV interview by saying that these events should never be forgotten, and that is true. I had my grandchildren learn of this black stain in human history. The Books of Wisdom warn monarchs of temptations unique to governance. One would have thought that the birth of parliamentary democracies would improve the nation. When it was adopted, the people hoped fair representation would be born, but discovered that it simply offered to the king the convenience of packaging groups into bundles of shared opinions for targeting purposes.

More important to this forum is the Church’s reaction to the acts of collectives and individuals in our time. Now that we have a clear picture of what the Church deems as tolerant and intolerant, and who constitutes an ally in her cause, we should expect the standard should be applied dependent on the same spectrum of circumstances and mores that play out today. We will see.

Thanks all for your thoughts.
Click to expand...
I read this one every day:
amazon.com/Birthday-Book-English-Martyrs/dp/1930873190
Haven’t read this, but by same (brilliant) author and a freebie here:
archive.org/details/livesofenglishma01camm
 
I…can’t imagine caring that much about what the Brits did hundreds of years ago…
 
You’ll find that every nation on this earth has a history of brutality and hatred. Yes, Britain has committed many indefensible acts. So has France, so has China, so has Japan, so has the USA, so has Austria etc. So has each and every religion. No country or faith is unique in this.

Lou
 
Just so. No more than Burke do I know the method of drawing up an indictment against a whole people.
 
A sentiment I have oft expressed, variously, though I’ve never met Mr. Gaiman (my daughter has). He admires Chesterton and so is worth listening to.
 
I yield to you on the main question. In a word, history is complicated, being full of people and stuff.

That issue of the Sandman comic, with Fiddlers Green, is the only comic by Mr. Gaiman I own. I was hoping to get his GOOD OMENS signed, on the occasion I failed to meet him. I envy you. .
 
All nations have skeletons in their closet, things they have done that have been bad. The UK is certainly not excepted, and of course some of their worse sins were against the Irish and Catholics. Having said that, I have both an admiration for the British people and for much of their contribution to history. I used to travel extensively on business. I found the English people were by far and away the best, excepting Poland, when it came to attitudes towards the Catholic Church. They are certainly some of the friendliest people in the entire world, and they are just enjoyable to be around.
Historically, we must remember that England singlehandedly stood up to Hitler for almost 2 years before they had any help from us Americans. We owe them a debt of gratitude for saving Western civilization. I will also add that the English navy did a lot in 19th century in trying to end the slave trade between Africa and the Americas. They did this at substantial cost and at time when they were embroiled in wars with Napolean and they were rather limited resources. And lets go ahead and bring up the Napoleanic wars, there is a tyrant they were responsible, at great cost, of disposing.
They certainly supported the Cold War effort against communism better than any other western European power.
And finally, the English culture gave us a treasure of Catholic literary converts in the early 20th century that we should all treasure.

Yes, the English have done some very bad things, and they have done some very, very good things. Not that much different than us.

This American says: “Long live the queen”!!
 
I would have equally liked to meet him. Sir Terry was a brave man. But not one whose work I have enjoyed.
 
As one of those detestable Britons I’ve been pondering the need to reply to the OP and the difficulty of finding the productive way of doing so. Coming online today I’ve found others have done the job admirably for me: –

The fact that humans have a propensity to persecute, especially at the boundaries of race, tribe and faith; the unwisdom of regarding Catholics as the only martyrs, or Catholics as martyrs only; the understanding that history is messy and complicated because people are messy and complicated; the advice (which I would only have the presumption to offer because it applies also to myself) to read more widely.

My thanks to those who have been thoughtful enough to add an ounce or two to the plus side of the scales as far as the history of the British is concerned. My especial thanks to Mr Carnelian for his generosity, given that he is in an especial position to understand.
 
I love my English brothers and sisters - have many friends from there and have loved visiting. The people are friendly, interesting, humble - and very kind to strangers (like myself when I’m visiting). I’ve always loved the culture - studied English lit in college and admired so many authors and artists. I can’t say enough positives.

But could I offer one critique on something I hope may change in the green and pleasant land without offending or hurting anyone?

I thought not.

But I’ll do so anyway:

We all know the anti-Catholic history - at least most of us here know it. We suffered some of it here in the U.S. I know, I know - everybody does bad things. Catholics also. My point here, however, is there remains an anti-Catholic spirit embedded in the English culture. In some cases, it’s outright hatred at the local level.
My hope? That someday this will be addressed. Starting with academia (which is actually slowly coming aroung - talk of the anti-Catholic historical era is more common in scholarship today, but not nearly enough ot it), there needs to be more openness about this. I have actually been pleasantly suprised to see more academics accepting Shakespeare’s Catholicism, for example, when at one time that was considered some kind of blasphemy.

Sure, I’m just one of the oppressed looking for justice. Just like descendents of slaves in America or Jews in post-holocaust England. But for many reasons, people don’t think about Catholics as needing apologies and a re-write of history to include them.
I guess nothing much is going to happen until/unless the Church of England separates from the state.
Something like Guy Fawkes day is seen as a celebration of patriotism because Catholics were considered traitors to the state at one time.
That’s what needs to be corrected. It wasn’t about treason but about religious freedom.

I’m not trying to start a fight or hurt anyone with this. Just hoping for some balance, over time - at least to Catholic history in England.
 
reggieM said:
I love my English brothers and sisters - have many friends from there and have loved visiting. The people are friendly, interesting, humble - and very kind to strangers (like myself when I’m visiting). I’ve always loved the culture - studied English lit in college and admired so many authors and artists. I can’t say enough positives.

But could I offer one critique on something I hope may change in the green and pleasant land without offending or hurting anyone?

I thought not.

But I’ll do so anyway:

We all know the anti-Catholic history - at least most of us here know it. We suffered some of it here in the U.S. I know, I know - everybody does bad things. Catholics also. My point here, however, is there remains an anti-Catholic spirit embedded in the English culture. In some cases, it’s outright hatred at the local level.
My hope? That someday this will be addressed. Starting with academia (which is actually slowly coming aroung - talk of the anti-Catholic historical era is more common in scholarship today, but not nearly enough ot it), there needs to be more openness about this. I have actually been pleasantly suprised to see more academics accepting Shakespeare’s Catholicism, for example, when at one time that was considered some kind of blasphemy.

Sure, I’m just one of the oppressed looking for justice. Just like descendents of slaves in America or Jews in post-holocaust England. But for many reasons, people don’t think about Catholics as needing apologies and a re-write of history to include them.
I guess nothing much is going to happen until/unless the Church of England separates from the state.
Something like Guy Fawkes day is seen as a celebration of patriotism because Catholics were considered traitors to the state at one time.
That’s what needs to be corrected. It wasn’t about treason but about religious freedom.

I’m not trying to start a fight or hurt anyone with this. Just hoping for some balance, over time - at least to Catholic history in England.
Click to expand...
First, thanks for the courtesy of your post.

But second (and of course I am not in touch with all blends and flavours of Britishdom) I am not aware of any embedded anti-Catholicism within England, although I admit elsewhere in the U.K. — in Ireland and Scotland — the situation is different, including I suppose even outright hatred in places. So I’m not sure how disestablishment of the CofE would play into this scenario. The CofE is actually, of course, on very good terms with the RC church.

As a side issue, re Guy Fawkes Day, it may once have been a celebration of patriotism but today (in England at least) it is now simply Bonfire Night, an occasion for enjoyment with not a thought of Catholics in it. As to its cause, however, it was not just about religious freedom, but about religious terrorism, which brings us back to the source of this thread.
 
Clevus said:
newadvent.org/cathen/11611c.htm
Code: 
 A commentary on the historical treatment of Catholics. (Usually I use more sources than this for a commentary, but this says enough.)

 I have just read something in New Advent that has shocked me more than all the stories I read on abuse and religious injustice.
Click to expand...
Hi Clevus,

I grew up in an Irish family and learned about how bad the Brits were. When young, this bad feeling towards Britain was part of my psyche which was enhanced with the Troubles in Northern Ireland going on at the same time.

I would agree with many other posters who say this bad feeling is not a good thing for anyone to hold with them.

I think it is actually healthy to try to understand that Britain is bigger than this history, much bigger. The English people themselves were often also victims and none of them today are responsible for some few people of the past.

It is also healthy as an antidote to this bad feeling to look at the great things of British history including their literature, industrial revolution, spread of common law and modernity such as railways and their stopping of international slavery etc. There is a lot to admire about Britain and in some ways we get to choose which emphasis to place on different aspects of British history.

I have just come back from a month in Japan to the Philippines and I know how terrible the Japanese were in World War II to every country they invaded and this includes British, Australian, Dutch and American prisoners of war. Yet I find the Japanese today as very reasonable, helpful and peaceful people. I would guess you would probably say the same things about Germans and I’ll have a beer with one when I get back home tomorrow.

I think if injustice is still prevalent then it is right to highlight the bad sections of history in an effort to redress the injustice, otherwise I would suggest really trying hard to see the best in people’s history and present culture.

One disagreement I have with the SJW class is that they continually try to see the world a certain way to justify their own rage and victim status as I once did.

As you can see with the Feminists, Socialists, Black Lives Matter, international Jihadists etc it can be a very unhealthy state of mind to be in.

God bless.
 
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