Poem of the Man-God

[Crusade_Guy]

I’m not sure if this belong in the Traditional Catholicism forum, but since I am a traditional Catholic I’m looking for a traditional perspective on it. What exactly is the “Poem of the Man-God”? I keep hearing it mentioned but don’t know what it is. I have heard it was forbidden (?) but I saw an old edition of it in a used book store and on the back cover it had a quote from Pius XII approving it.

 

[Mordocai]

o man this is probly going to get mixed responses…
ive flipped through a few pages and liked what i read.
i know little more than there is controversy surrounding it, supposedly a pope endorsed it, then it was on the index, then the index was taken away, and yeah.
i plan on reading it some time in my life.

God Bless
Mordocai

 

[marymonde]

I’m not sure if this belong in the Traditional Catholicism forum, but since I am a traditional Catholic I’m looking for a traditional perspective on it. What exactly is the “Poem of the Man-God”? I keep hearing it mentioned but don’t know what it is. I have heard it was forbidden (?) but I saw an old edition of it in a used book store and on the back cover it had a quote from Pius XII approving it.

I stopped reading it when it claimed Blessed Mother desired not only to be a sinner, but a big sinner so her Son could save her more. I paraphrasing, but it is in the right context.

Here are some links:

listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9501a&L=apar-l&T=0&P=2531

jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm

catholicplanet.com/apparitions/false10.htm

 

[Crusade_Guy]

I stopped reading it when it claimed Blessed Mother desired not only to be a sinner, but a big sinner so her Son could save her more. I paraphrasing, but it is in the right context.

Here are some links:

listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9501a&L=apar-l&T=0&P=2531

jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm

catholicplanet.com/apparitions/false10.htm

If it says that then it is probably false and I am going to stay away from it. Why would Our Blessed Mother want to wound Her Son’s Heart by committing any sin?

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Uh-oh. Looks like it got some kind of semi-approval by the false Medjugorje “apparition.” Stay far far away!

 

[Goblin_Taters]

The Poem of the Man-God is basically a collection of books that contain visions/narrations supposedly given to Maria Valtorta, an Italian woman living in Italy in the early part of the 20th century. There is controversy as to the claim that they were approved by at least one pope, if I recall correctly.

The books basically narrate those events that might be found in the gospels but were not included. The first book contains a narration of Mary’s early life and her betrothal to Joseph. (that’s how far I got into the first book.) Overall, so far as I can tell, the book is very interesting. While not all of it may be true, it does read as good historical fiction, and many extra-Biblical events portrayed (i.e. the Entrance of Mary into the Temple) can be considered in accordance with Catholic Tradition.

There are a few moments when you’re like What?! that doesn’t make sense, as for example when Mary claims she wishes she were a great sinner. Another moment I remember off-hand is the claim that Joseph was a Nazarite (as in the OT order of Nazarites), the problem being (if I remember correctly) that Joseph correctly burries the dead in the book, when in fact Nazarites were not allowed to come into contact with the dead.

However, I know that some religious in their orders have been commended the reading and meditation of the Poem. I personally don’t see anything horribly wrong with it, although caution would be good, since there have been pronouncements of weak theology concerning the book.

I believe that Maria Valtorta at the time of having the Poem written down was on her death-bed, and before she died she was hallucinating, or was at least clearly not connected with reality.

According to wikipedia’s entry on her, the Poem was placed on the Index in 1959 (before VII)

 

[Benedictus]

As the previous poster indicated, it was placed on the Index of Prohibited Books. Our current Pope spoke out against it several years ago.

 

[Crusade_Guy]

According to wikipedia’s entry on her, the Poem was placed on the Index in 1959 (before VII)

LOL. Lemme guess when it was taken off the index…

 

[Eliza10]

I discovered these books about three years ago? I picked it up to read and hardly a day passes where I have not read from it, and I always put it down with reluctance.

I found the book after God had already seen me through a very difficult passage of my life and becaue of circumstances, I believe strongly He gave me the book as a gift. (Thats another story). The book was immediately and still continues to be my great comfort and delight as I have continuted to work my way through that difficult passage.

Its over 4000 pages of pure joy. And why not; its the life of our Lord, beautifully told. The books are always scattered about my house, I am always aware of where they are, because I am thinking about when I can next pick one up to read! I am nearly done reading it through the second time (and I assure you its not because I have a lot of time on my hands!), but I also love to pick it up anywhere and read so there also are so many, many parts I have read over and over, multiple times. Like the Adoration of the Shephards. Miracles stories. Whatever corresponds to feast days we are having, or the rosary mysteries. Mary Magdalene. Lots of other things I read again and again for pure delight.

I have piles of great books. But Poem of the Man-God is giving me a great reason to pare way down finally. I’m going to have a garage sale. And keep only the very best. (Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism will make the cut!)

(this is long so will finish in next post)

 

[Eliza10]

Another keeper (of my other books) will be John Haffert’s Her Glorious Title. Recently I was reading on a Valtorta website I have been meaing to read (but would always rather just read The Poem), and I see how Haffet discovered the books:

Ihappened to be in Rome with the Most Rev. John Venancio, the Bishop of Fatima, when he sought out a special bookstore to purchase the ten volumes of the Italian edition. It had been recommended by a highly esteemed friend in Paris, the celebrated author-editor, Abbe Andre Richard.

Years later, after Bishop Venancio retired, whenever I visited him our conversation seemed to turn to the *Poem. *Inhis last years *the Bishop read from it every day. *He must have read all ten volumes over and over. *I began to wonder what could be so special about it. *The Bishop was widely read and had a sizable library. He had been a professor of dogmatic theology in Rome before becoming the Bishop of Fatima. Yet now, when he had ample time to read anything he wished, he seemed to spend all his time on this one book.

At the time it was available only in Italian, which was not my best language. But I found my way back to the same bookstore in Rome and bought the ten volumes. Next I bought each volume in French (my “second” language) as it came out. Finally I read the entire work a third time (3,327 pages) when the English edition became available. Today I continue, like Bishop Venancio, to read it over and over.

So I find I am not the only one that can’t stop reading it, and who feels a strong desire to read it over and over again! I am not in bad company, you see!

Yes, it was on the baned list in 1959 but that was abolished in 1965. Pio was banned, too, remember?

I was a bit overwhlemed with I debate i had here on this forum because of the strong opposition from some sincere individuals, who would quote the same things over and over from the net. But there are answers to those things. Like EWTN has something on ther Q&A site, quoting from Radzinger’s office (sp.?), but a later statement from Radzinger himself supporting the passages he read as being morally theologiacally correct, which contraddicts the office letter mentioned by EWTN, is not mentioned.

On this forum I answered the slams against it best I could at the time, but, upon further investigating, I see always that the detractors haven’t read it! They pick a few passages out of context (always) and write detracting on that alone!

I could not find any intelligent discussion detracting it anywhere on the net! And I really tried! I was dying to see some kind of intelligent reasoning against it. It was like deja-vous - when I was looking for intellignet detraction of the Catholic Church, dying to find something truly against it that could hold some water when examined - but it didn’t exist!

The Mary/sinner statrement made by Mary when she was three is oft-repeated by detractors but lo! They always use only half her staement (the racy half of course!) and its never repeated in its beautiful context. Its like saying that Bible is an evil book because it says “An eye of an eye, a tooth for a tooth”. Or any other racy Bible passage. Mary’s statement was not a literal statement of her wish. To read that chapter in its context is a mysterious, beautiful delight.

Well, its all I can say for now. I could go on and on. Sorry for any typos, I don’t have time to check and must run.

 

[adrift]

Why do I think this is false?

Leaving aside it being put on the list, the contents convince me it is not true.

The book claims that Jesus had blonde hair. Jesus would not have had blonde hair. The people of that region are dark.

The book claims that she tells Joseph God Bless You. Mary was faithful and a Jew. Never would she use the word God.

The book claims that Mary said Come, let us offer Jesus to the Father. Calling God. Father was a novel idea when Jesus said to pray Our Father. Mary would not have said this at this time.

The description of what Mary and Joseph does after Jesus’ birth does not match what the bible says for its says that Jesus was wrapped in swaddling cloths not in Mary’s mantel.

 

[bear06]

It was on the banned book list and I’ll have to look for it but I remember something from Cardinal Ratzinger about the last list still being in effect. I’ll see what I can dig up tomorrow.

Interestingly enough, not only is this book touted by the followers of Medjugorie but I believe it’s also touted by Bishop Williamson of the SSPX.

 

[Eliza10]

It was on the banned book list and I’ll have to look for it but I remember something from Cardinal Ratzinger about the last list still being in effect. I’ll see what I can dig up tomorrow.

Interestingly enough, not only is this book touted by the followers of Medjugorie but I believe it’s also touted by Bishop Williamson of the SSPX.

If you are looking to dig up dirt, you certainly will find it. You have your conclusion, so you look for the evidence to support it.

Or, you could look for evidence of what is true, and weigh it. That takes more time and thought.

Concerning the fact that it was on the now defunct banned list, consider this statement of Bishop Roman Danylad:

“The repetition of the notions of the earlier censors and maligners of Maria Valtorta reveals that whoever continues to invoke this index is not aware of the response of Cardinal Ratzinger to the bishop of Birmingham, Alabama in 1993**; **and of the statements of the Conference of Italian Bishops over the past several years. These acknowledge that there is nothing against faith or morals in the Poem of the Man God and the other writings of Maria Valtorta. They further acknowledge the current legislation of the Catholic Church in the Code of Canon law, that no longer require the nihil obstat of ecclesiastical authorities for writings purporting to alleged messages or revelations (CIC cann. 823-4, 830, 832)”

 

[adrift]

ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp
In 1966 when the Index was abolished many thought this meant the works listed on it could be read. Cardinal Ratzinger addressed this issue with respect to the “Poem of the Man-God,” in the aforementioned Letter saying,

"After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing and distribution of the work was permitted, people were reminded again in 'LOsservatore Romano' (June 15, 1966) that, as was published in the 'Acta Apostolicae Sedis' (1966), the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution. A decision against distributing and recommending a work, which has not beeen condemned lightly, may be reversed, but only after profound changes that neutralize the harm which such a publication could bring forth among the ordinary faithful."

In 1993 Bishop Boland of Birmingham, AL wrote the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith about “Poem” on behalf of an inquirer. Cardinal Ratzinger responded by letter, which the bishop then quoted in his response to the person, who shared it with us. The response noted that because of continuing interest in the books the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had requested the Italian Bishops Conference to ask the publisher (who as I noted never in the past has complied with Roman decisions) to have a disclaimer printed in the volumes that “clearly indicated from the very first page that the ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin.” Whether this has been done I don’t know.

 

[Eliza10]

Why do I think this is false?..

The book claims that Jesus had blonde hair. Jesus would not have had blonde hair. The people of that region are dark…

LOL, I had the same reaction to Jesus having blond hair! And I didn’t hear it from Poem of the Man-God first. I was reading another book on the Shroud, on the latest scientific findings. They say that the Man of the shroud had LIGHT hair! Either blond or white! When I heard this I was shocked and refused to believe it. I could not believe Jesus was blond. I pictured him of medium brown hair, and soft brown eyes. But I could not deny this scientific fact, and I beleive the shroud is real. I could not picture my Jesus as a blond, so I figured it must have turned white from the passion! Part of me said that didn’t make sense, but I didn’t know what to do with that information. This way at least I could keep imagining Jesus as I always had.

So then I read Poem of the Man-God and Maria Valtorta described his hair as “golden” and “reddish” and “fair”, as well as wavy or curly, and always neat in appearance (She also described his skin as like old ivory). Now it was not so hard to accept. Now I picture him this way.

Elsewhere in her books as she describes the Jewish people, she said some have that typical look we think of as Jewish, but also she describes a wide variety of looks in the Jewish people, and once she described a crowd as being mostly dark heads, and “only very few golden ones” here and there. So, I figured many peoples must have their few. Italians have their Northren blondes. And being proximate to the seat of civilisation, and also the people at the stem of civilisation, it makes sense there were many types of people.

She also describes him as tall, long fingers, and very handsome. The other apostle who was as tall, about Jesus’ height, was Judas Iscariot, and he was also handsome she said (and proud of it), but in a different way, with more Jewish-like features, olive skin, dark hair and eyes.

In one of the scenes, of the hundreds and hundreds of scenes described, an annoyed and boisterous Roman was insulting the Jewish people present in a crowd [because the two peoples were constantly antagonizing each other, with the Jews resenting their presence and the Romans resenting their insults against their uncleanness, etc.], - and he begins his address of insult by proclaiming, “O big-nosed people!..”

Also, as she begins to describe one of my favorite scenes, the first one I read which is partway into volume one, after setting the stage beautifully of the location, the feel of the air, and the night, she writes, “I see a group of hairy men…”

Getting back to the topic Jesus, Valtorta describes Mary also as being fiar-haired. Also, there is this sketch of Mary in the Pieta prayer book said to be drawn by a mystic (its been cut for the website, wrongly, I think*):
http://olrl.org/pray/pieta/pics/ourlady.gif

I think she looks like she could be blond there.

*What I mean is, I think they cut off the top of her head too much. Maybe sometime I will redraw this as my own interpretation.

(Continued in the next post)

 

[Eliza10]

The book claims that she tells Joseph God Bless You. Mary was faithful and a Jew. Never would she use the word God…

Well, I’ve heard that about the Jewish and the word God. I undersatnd. But I would ask a Jewish scholar if this were always true at all times for all Jewish people before I would be so sure. Anyway, if many Catholic Theologians with many years of high level Biblical studies at the Pontifical University don’t complain about this point in Valtorta’s writings, I am sure not going to.

The book claims that Mary said Come, let us offer Jesus to the Father. Calling God. Father was a novel idea when Jesus said to pray Our Father. Mary would not have said this at this time. .

Where in the Bible does it say that when Jesus taught this to the Disciples it was the first time he ever taught God as Father to anyone?? Why do you think He and Mary had not already shared this prayer? Or this concept? There is nothing in the Bible to back up your statement, and since learned Catholic Theologians don’t see a problem with this, nor do I.

The description of what Mary and Joseph does after Jesus’ birth does not match what the bible says for its says that Jesus was wrapped in swaddling cloths not in Mary’s mantel.

Maybe it was both!

Well, I just love how she writes. But you can read some yourself. 20% of the massive writings are online to read at the publisher’s site here: valtorta.org/

Careful, its rich! You can’t race through it. You have to savor it. I suggest pick on topic you want to know more about and read it slowly.

I have the abridged City of God and I realize I can’t rush throught that either.

You can read The Poem it to pick it apart for things but remember, you can do the exact same thing with the Bible if you aren’t a believer. Or, you can build a whole false religion around the Bible. Does that make the Bible wrong? No, it wasn’t read with faith, openness to the truths taught, and with the guiding of the Holy Spirit. I am not saying the Poem and the Bible are on par, in no way. I am only saying what I did.

I had a colleague once whom I told I knew would become a believer if he’d just read the Bible. He told me he had! Two times! I was shocked. I didn’t think it was possible. But without faith, I guess it is.

 

[adrift]

Anyway, if many Catholic Theologians with many years of high level Biblical studies at the Pontifical University don’t complain about this point in Valtorta’s writings, I am sure not going to.

You are over looking that this is an unapproved book. No matter how you try you can’t get around that it was condemned. That condemnation has never been lifted. Your statement is just that a statement that is not backed up.

Where did you get your info on the Shroud. I have searched and cannot find it.

Where in the Bible does it say that when Jesus taught this to the Disciples it was the first time he ever taught God as Father to anyone?

Where in the Bible is it taught before this? The was a wonderful new revelation by Jesus. Before this God was distant and unattainable. Since this book was condemned I guess your comment

since learned Catholic Theologians don’t see a problem with this, nor do I.

is false.

 

[Eliza10]

Where did you get your info on the Shroud. I have searched and cannot find it…

Its from a book I have, I think its the one in the following quote, which is from the following reputable website:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/shroudofturin.asp

Here is the quote which is from just below center (above the subtitle, “Controversy”) on that page:

*Dr. Gilbert Lavoie in his Unlocking the Secrets of the Shroud presented another intriguing discovery. The negative image of the shroud as compared with the negative images of photography reveals that the man in question had either white or light blond hair. He noted another peculiarity: the shadows of the face and the fall of the hair indicate that the man was upright and suspended when the image was made, while the blood marks indicate the man was in the supine position on top of the cloth with the rest folded over him. Dr. Lavoie concluded that this upright image was made after the blood had stained the cloth: “This finding is intellectually exciting to anyone who contemplates the possibility that this image reflects the moment of the resurrection” (p. 182). *

So you see the passage is about how the shroud tells of the resurrection. The haircolor is an aside. In the book there are images of the shroud to explain this theory and when you see it, it is hard to deny that the hair was light.

I had to ask myself at the time why it bothered me so much that Jesus could have been light haired (But you know, that combined with his height would have helped him stand out in the crowd, which certainly would have been useful when he spoke to the crowds!). And I realized it was because it would make those white supremesists, those neo-nazi types so happy! But who are they, but the work of the devil? What matters or doesn’t matter to them ought to be ignored.

I am not writing to make a case for the hair coloring of Jesus. I am saying to open your mind, don’t be so sure that YOU know the hair coloring of Jesus. You could be wrong.

Although light skin, hair, eyes are not politically correct anymore, it was a long traditon that Jesus’ hair was somewhat light. And here is a website I just found that tells of the sources of some of those traditions. I do not promote this site as I know nothing about it. I just think its interesting that the earliest sources they site (sources which I have heard mentioned elsewhere) match what Valtorta writes:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/shroudofturin.asp

I want to say, some people are probably really stuck on this and I think Jesus would appear to that person as that person needs him to appear. Jewish, Arab, or African-American features, for instance. Perhaps he has done so. And perhaps his appearances as golden-haired were for those seers who needed that, only!

Who knows? Because ultimately it doesn’t matter.

I am happy with the image I have of Jesus in my mind which has been inspired by the writings of Maria Valtorta, and seems true. But its Jesus I love, not His particular appearance, and if He ever appears to me in a different way than I imagine, I know I will recognize Him and I know I won’t be disappointed.

Where in the Bible is it taught before this? The was a wonderful new revelation by Jesus. Before this God was distant and unattainable…

Yes, it is new in the Bible, and it is new to the apostles at that moment of which is written, I assume. But is it new to Mary? Jesus lived with her for 30 years. How do you think he kept this great secret of the Father from her?? And why would He?? Do you think He didn’t talk to her?

Since this book was condemned I guess your comment is false.

It was on a now defunct condemned book list. No longer.

But in your opinion, the fact that there was ever such a list of condemned books means that list should still be honored. Thats your opinion, which you are entitled to. But its not fact.

Perhaps the confusion is in the wording. Condemned sounds so final. But apparently they didn’t mean final because they abolished the list.

 

[bear06]

If you are looking to dig up dirt, you certainly will find it. You have your conclusion, so you look for the evidence to support it.

Thanks, adrift for finding the information. The list is still binding according to Cardinal Ratzinger and if you’d like a letter from Williamson regarding this book, I have that too. If you want to ignore Cardinal Ratzinger about the list, go ahead, but have you actually found something contrary to what he has said?

the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution

 

[Theodora]

At the time when I bought the 4-volume set of the Poem I did not realize that the writings were on the Index.

My question is: What do I do with the books. Burn them? Trash them? Sell them?

Please let me know the correct manner to dispose of the books. Thank you.