Poem of the Man-God

[Insight]

It would be difficult to believe, considering everyone involved is sworn to oaths of secrecy for life under excommunication, that when the guilty Priest finally transfers, that the scandal suddenly become free public knowledge for everyone.

I don’t have a problem with the Church considering the Poem fiction. The “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” provided by Bishop Roman verify that Valtorta’s writings are free of doctrinal or moral error and nothing in it that contradicts Catholic dogma. That is enough for me. As far as fact or fiction is concerned, one can consider the scientific and technical substantiations. It is more than likely that anyone possessing simple deductive reasoning would be come to a logical conclusion.

Maria Valtorta describes Jesus as having blonde hair and blue eyes. There are three entirely separate eyewitness descriptions that confirm this, one authenticated by The United States Congressional Library and another dates back to 5 BC (± 50yrs accuracy). The third by Publius Lentrelus. Not to mention the most recent analysis of the shroud.

Maria Valtorta keeps perfect track of Jesus, Mary and over 500 additional personalities. None of which are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jesus is appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Jesus traverses the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. A fundamental proof of divine influence.

“The 10,000 pages of Divine Revelation were given by our Lord in completely random succession. Maria records the visions in simple bound school note books, with no corrections, in the random order as they were given. On the surface, the complete work appeared as a well shuffled deck of cards. Towards the end, Jesus provides the proper sequence, the key, which could not be realized until the mammoth task of typing the manuscript was completed, allowing the individual pages to be sequenced in the specified succession. When finally placed in the correct progression, the puzzle materializes into a seamless perfect flowing chronology.

Geologist and Mineralogist Dr. Vittorio Tredici points out how Maria Valtorta described and correctly named several towns and villages that were not even discovered until after her death. David J. Webster posted a landmark 31 page article that fundamentally proves the authenticity of Maria Valtorta’s writings. The “Poem of the Man-God” may be the very first Private Revelation ever to be scientifically proven genuine. David meticulously and methodically examines Maria Valtorta’s strikingly accurate descriptions of first Century Palestine for every piece of topographical evidence. He then compares this evidence with currently known facts that are only now being proven authentic. “Over thirty percent or 79 (all entries marked with * and ) of the 255 geographical sites in Palestine mentioned in the Poem were not listed in the 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) Atlas. 62 (all) of these 79 were not even listed in the 184 page Macmillan Bible Atlas (MBA) published in 1968. [Maria Valtorta died in 1961] Where did Maria Valtorta get all these names? For a first century eye-witness to include so many obscure and unknown names would, of course, be expected. And most surprising is that these names, obscure and unknown in the 1940’s, are only now being proven authentic. 52 of these 62 have no biblical reference whatever, and 17 of these with no biblical reference have been either indirectly confirmed as authentic by recent “ancient external sources” found in the Macmillan Bible Atlas (1968) or actually listed in the HarperCollins Atlas of the Bible (1989). This makes a total of 29 confirmations since the 1939 ISBE atlas listing. Also among those 62 sites are mentioned the ruins of 6 ancient Palestinian cities some corresponding to the modern consensus on location. In addition, Valtorta’s precise descriptions of the natural topography of Palestine from numerous locations and the information about the outside pagan world of that day, including people, places, customs, Greek and Roman mythology, related in the conversations of that day, are strikingly correct.”

 

[adrift]

Why do you continue to repeat that which has been shown to be untrue.

Maria Valtorta describes Jesus as having blonde hair and blue eyes. There are three entirely separate eyewitness descriptions that confirm this, one authenticated by The United States Congressional Library and another dates back to 5 BC (± 50yrs accuracy). The third by Publius Lentrelus. Not to mention the most recent analysis of the shroud.

I asked you why did you believe the Library which has much fiction it verified it to be authentic? Since Jesus was born 5 BC to 7 BC how could it be authentic. Also you don’t identify what you are referring to. Publius Lentrelus is known fraud and the Shroud is only mentioned by one person not a rousing endorsement. Why do you repost rubbish? All proven false.

As for the rest of your post, it is unverifiable. There are two possible answers.
The statements are false and considering how much has been posted proven false it is likely that this to wouldn’t hold up to an investigation.

The second possibility is it is demonic.

Considering the fruits that is a good possibility.

The 10,000 pages of Divine Revelation were given by our Lord in completely random

To claim that this is a Divine Revelation, is a direct disobedience of the Church which has said that it can only be considered fiction.

 

[Insight]

As much fun as we are having, I have to get back to you later. My wife and I are helping our daughter with a presentation she is doing on Julie Andrews.

I’ll just touch on a few. The United States Congressional Library authenticated it, just because there is a fiction section doesn’t mean everything that is nonfiction suddenly becomes fiction. Jesus was born in approximately 5BC, the dating was ± 50 years (that means plus or minus 50 years. Publius Lentrelus is not a fictitious character as you stated posting 80, there is a bio on him in Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britanica:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Cornelius_Lentulus_Spinther

Not one, there are two shroud confirmations:

Dr. Gilbert Lavoie in his Unlocking the Secrets of the Shroud presented another intriguing discovery. The negative image of the shroud as compared with the negative images of photography reveals that the man in question had either white or light blond hair.

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/shroudofturin.asp

&

Lorenzo Ferri was also a prominent Shroud of Turin scholar, and made an illustrious full sized sculpture of Jesus based on the Shroud (with special permission of the Vatican to handle and examine the original Shroud) and Maria Valtorta’s descriptions, which he said were in perfect harmonious agreement.

How could the Poem be demonic with two Papal endorsements, including endorsements by Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, Nuns and noted Lay Persons? And don’t forget the The “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” provided by Bishop Roman.

 

[adrift]

I’ll just touch on a few. The United States Congressional Library authenticated it, just because there is a fiction section doesn’t mean everything that is nonfiction suddenly becomes fiction.

Nor does it mean that it is not fiction. I doubt that the Library said that is wasn’t fiction as that is the judgment of historians.
Jesus was born in approximately 5BC, the dating was ± 50 years (that means plus or minus 50 years. Publius Lentrelus is not a fictitious character as you stated posting 80, there is a bio on him in Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britanica:

:http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Cornelius_Lentulus_Spinther

Publius Lentulus

Publius Lentulus is a fictitious person, said to have been Governor of Judea before Pontius, and to have written the following letter to the Roman Senate:

Lentulus, the Governor of the Jerusalemites to the Roman Senate and People, greetings. There has appeared in our times, and there still lives, a man of great power (virtue), called Jesus Christ. The people call him prophet of truth; his disciples, son of God. He raises the dead, and heals infirmities. He is a man of medium size (statura procerus, mediocris et spectabilis); he has a venerable aspect, and his beholders can both fear and love him. His hair is of the colour of the ripe hazel-nut, straight down to the ears, but below the ears wavy and curled, with a bluish and bright reflection, flowing over his shoulders. It is parted in two on the top of the head, after the pattern of the Nazarenes. His brow is smooth and vary cheerful with a face without wrinkle or spot, embellished by a slightly reddish complexion. His nose and mouth are faultless. His beard is abundant, of the colour of his hair, not long, but divided at the chin. His aspect is simple and mature, his eyes are changeable and bright. He is terrible in his reprimands, sweet and amiable in his admonitions, cheerful without loss of gravity. He was never known to laugh, but often to weep. His stature is straight, his hands and arms beautiful to behold. His conversation is grave, infrequent, and modest. He is the most beautiful among the children of men.

Publius Cornelius Lentulus Spinther not the one associated with the supposed letter.

Not one, there are two shroud confirmations:

Dr. Gilbert Lavoie in his Unlocking the Secrets of the Shroud presented another intriguing discovery. The negative image of the shroud as compared with the negative images of photography reveals that the man in question had either white or light blond hair.Lorenzo Ferri was also a prominent Shroud of Turin scholar, and made an illustrious full sized sculpture of Jesus based on the Shroud (with special permission of the Vatican to handle and examine the original Shroud) and Maria Valtorta’s descriptions, which he said were in perfect harmonious agreement.

Speculation only.

How could the Poem be demonic with two Papal endorsements, including endorsements by Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, Nuns and noted Lay Persons? And don’t forget the The “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” provided by Bishop Roman.

Don’t you forget that none of what you provide is infallible.
Non of it says that it is anything but fiction.

 

[Insight]

Good Morning,

Spinther was only a nickname for Publius Cornelius:

“Publius Cornelius Lentulus, nicknamed Spinther because of his likeness to a popular actor of that name, came from an ancient Roman patrician family of the Cornelia gens.”

I don’t know what to tell you? Perhaps you could write a letter to the Encyclopedia Britannica and tell them that they are making a mistake.

Perhaps you could even write a letter to The United States Congressional Library and tell them that their authentication is erroneous.

Maybe you could write a letter to the Archeologists and tell them that they were performing their Carbon 14 Dating methods incorrectly.

The translation you posted by Publius Lentrelus from the Catholic Encyclopedia is entirely unique and doesn’t match the History Channel’s, nor anyone else’s.

A Description of Jesus Christ by Publius Lentrelus

“There lives at this time in Judea a man of singular virtue whose name is Jesus Christ, whom the barbarians esteem as a prophet, but his followers love and adore him as the offspring of the immortal God. He calls back the dead from the graves and heals all sorts of diseases with a word, or touch. He is a tall man, well-shaped, and of an amiable and reverend aspect; his hair of a color that can hardly be matched, falling into graceful curls, waving about and very agreeable crouching upon his shoulder, parted on the crown of the head, running as a stream to the front after the fashion of the nazarites. His forehead high, large and imposing; his cheeks without spot or wrinkle, beautiful with a lovely red; his nose and mouth formed with exquisite symmetry; his beard, and of a color suitable to his hair, reaching below his chin and parted in the middle like a fork; his eyes bright blue, clear and serene. Look innocent, dignified, manly and mature. In proportion of body and most perfect, and captivating; his arms and hands delectable to behold. He rebukes with majesty, councils with mildness, His whole address whether in word or deed, being eloquent and grave. No man has seen him laugh, yet his manners are exceedingly pleasant, but he has wept frequently in the presence of men. He is temperate, modest and wise. A man for his extraordinary beauty and perfection, surpassing the children of men in every sense”

Perhaps you could also write all these websites and tell them that their Publius Lentrelus descriptions are all translated incorrectly. Every one of the following Publius Lentrelus descriptions has “bright blue eyes”, yours is the only one that doesn’t.

mariavaltortawebring.com/Pages/015_Jeus_Physical_Appearance.htm

angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/book6.html

docrob.100megsfree5.com/descrip.htm

crutchercpa.com/jesusdescription.htm

subtleenergies.com/ormus/jesus/descript.htm

preterism-eschatology.com/Evidence%20that%20Jesus%20Existed.htm

originofnations.org/HRP_Papers/Scots%20-%20True%20Roots%20and%20History.pdf

british-israel.ca/USA.pdf

vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=2785

devotions.com/1998/04/where-did-you-get-that-picture-of.html

jakin2000.com/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=41768&columnid=

matchdoctor.com/thread_87_16258_1/Is_There_Proof_That_Jesus_Really_Existed.html

israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Resurrection.htm

yahstable.com/go_in.htm

search.yahoo.com/search?p=Publius+Lentrelus+Jesus+bright+blue&ei=UTF-8&y=11&fr=yfp-t-501&xargs=0&pstart=1&b=21

 

[Insight]

Regarding the Shroud you state: “Speculation only”. Those are two experts (a Scientist and a Professor), who actually handled and analyzed the actual Shroud of Turin.

“Don’t you forget that none of what you provide is infallible”: The Pope is infallible:

“Her writings were presented to Pope Pius XII in 1947, who examined them for ten months. His Holiness agreed to a special meeting in 1948, in which He ordered the publishing before three Priests: Fr. Corrado Berti (Professor of Dogmatic and Sacramental Theology at the Pontifical “Marianum” Theological Faculty of Rome from 1939 onward, later becoming Secretary of the Faculty from 1950 to 1959, as well as consultant to the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council), Fr. Romualdo M. Migliorini (Prefect Apostle in Africa), and Fr. Andrew M. Cecchin (Prior of the International College of the Servites of Mary in Rome. These aforementioned Priests documented this event immediately afterwards with signed testimony. The fact that the Pope did grant this audience was historically documented the next day, February 27, 1948 in L’Osservatore Romano. The Official Vatican recorder Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, inscribed that Pope Pius XII’s action as: “The kind of official Imprimatur granted before witnesses by the Holy Father in 1948. An “Official Imprimatur” of the Supreme Authority of the Church”. The Code of Canon Law - Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I, Article I - gives the Pope full and supreme power over all levels of the Church and free use to exercise this power. The Papal order came first. Canon law prohibits this Papal order from being reversed by subordinate levels of Church authority. Canon law clearly requires that this Papal order be embraced with unconditional acceptance and submission.

Read carefully to understand Your Hierarchy. First Vatican Council, Session IV, Chp. IV, p.IX - “So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 883 - "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.”

 

[adrift]

I always check out everything. When there was a conflict between what the Catholic Encyclopedia said and what the Britannica said. I checked it out and found there was no contradiction.
Britannica:

Lentulus Spinther, Publius Cornelius was a real person who died according to Britannica 63 BC.

He died long before Jesus was born.
There is no one by that name however that was a contemporary of Jesus hence the Catholic Encyclopedia is correct that he was fiction.

As for the multiple web sites, I think it happens this way. Someone post on their web site the claim that the letter exists, the next person doesn’t check out the first and just repeats it. Then another person seeing the two posts believes that is verification and without checking further puts it on their web site. This goes on and on all until there are multiple sites being based on the same misinformation that no one has bothered to confirm.

I believe that is what happened. From what I have been able to find, the only reference in the Library of Congress is that it has a copy of the Archko Volume that has been labeled a hoax. That is not the Library verifying it is true. It only means they have a copy of a book written in the late 1887. If you have evidence that the Library verified this account as factual by all means present it.
From the Blue Letter Bible

The Archko Volume

One of the most famous written hoaxes is the Archko Volume. The work is also known as the “Report of Pilate” or “Archko Library.” The content of this work is an alleged report of the trial and death of Jesus made by Pontius Pilate to the Emperor Tiberius. Its existence can be traced back to Rev. W. D. Mahan of Boonville, Missouri, who published a thirty-two page pamphlet in 1879 titled, “A Correct Transcript of Pilate’s Court.”

 

[adrift]

“Don’t you forget that none of what you provide is infallible”: The Pope is infallible:

You misunderstand Imprimatur
NIHIL OBSTAT
“nothing stands in the way”
IMPRIMATUR
“let it be printed”

Sadly this is how Protestants misinterpret infallibility. The Pope is not infallible in everything he does.

INFALLIBILITY

Freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals. As defined by the First Vatican Council, “The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra – that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church” (Denzinger 3074).

An imprimatur does not define doctrine so it does not fall under the charisma of infallibility.

The “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur agree with the content, opinions or statements expressed.

An Imprimatur does not mean that a book is an official text of the Church. It’s not the approval of the work by the Pope or a dogmatic Council, and it’s not a stamp of infallibility. It doesn’t even mean that everything in the book is accurate, only that there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic dogma.

Maybe you could write a letter to the Archeologists and tell them that they were performing their Carbon 14 Dating methods incorrectly.

Is this what you are referring to?

In 1988, the Holy See permitted three research centers to independently perform radiocarbon dating on portions of a swatch taken from a corner of the shroud. All three, Oxford University, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology agreed with a dating in the 13th to 14th centuries

Doesn’t the carbon dating make the Shroud not the burial cross I do happen to believe that the carbon test made errors in their test. I however don’t have to tell them. Other scientist have told them. The Shroud is debatable and has not been ruled on by the Church to be authentic.

[1948] Pope Pius XII: Meets with Father Berti who claims that the Pope tells him to publish. No independent verification is presented.
[1949] Two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr. Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the “Poem,” ordering Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it.
Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his typed versions.
[1952] Despite his signed promise, Father Berti went to publisher Emiliano Pisani.
[1956] Though aware of the Holy Office’s opposition, Pisani printed the first volume and a new volume each year through 1959
[1959] Pope John XXIII: Signed the decree placing the Poem on the Index Bishop Roman Danylak states it was put on the index for lack of imprimatur.
[1966] Pope Paul VI: Abolishes the Index, Many think that this means that they may read what was on the list
[1993] Cardinal Ratzinger responds to Bishop Boland of Birmingham, AL in a letter about the book: The response noted that because of continuing interest in the books the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had requested the Italian Bishops Conference to ask the publisher to have a disclaimer printed in the volumes that “clearly indicated from the very first page that the ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin.”

 

[adrift]

Britannica:
Lentulus Spinther, Publius Cornelius was a real person who died according to Britannica 63 BC.

Oops I missed the need to cite this page so here it is
To cite this page:

* MLA style:
  "Lentulus Crus, Lucius Cornelius." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2008. Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition. 1 Apr. 2008  <http://library.eb.com/eb/article-9047776>.
* APA style:
  Lentulus Crus, Lucius Cornelius. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved April 1, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: [library.eb.com/eb/article-9047776](http://library.eb.com/eb/article-9047776)

 

[Insight]

My Encyclopedia Britannica says “Cornelius Lentulus Spinther first attained public office in 63BC”. He didn’t die in 63BC. He also had a son who bore the same name, that is why if you go back to page 6 on this thread, I wrote in posting 86, that it was more likely his son. Don’t forget that you were insisting for several pages that he never existed.

So the 15 websites are wrong, and you are right, including the Israeli one?

I don’t have time right now, but I’ll check it out later. I recall coming across sites saying the Archko Volume dated to 5BC.

Regarding the Pope, many Catholics believe that a Papal Order is infallable.

I’ll have to do further research on the Shroud also, I recall a show on the Discovery Channel saying that the Shroud was involved in a fire, which messed up the Radiocarbon dating results.

“[1948] Pope Pius XII: Meets with Father Berti who claims that the Pope tells him to publish. No independent verification is presented.” Three notable Priests witnessed the Papal Order, and a Cardinal Validated it. The fact that the Pope did grant this audience was historically documented the next day, February 27, 1948 in L’Osservatore Romano, proof that the meeting did take place. There is nothing that says it must be video taped.

First Vatican Council, Session IV, Chp. IV, p.IX - “So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 883 - "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.”

A will is valid with two witnesses, not even Priests. A person can go to Jail for life as a result of the testimony of one witness. Yet the testimony of three notable Roman Catholic Priests and a Cardinal are not enough for you?

 

[adrift]

My Encyclopedia Britannica says “Cornelius Lentulus Spinther first attained public office in 63BC”. He didn’t die in 63BC. He also had a son who bore the same name, that is why if you go back to page 6 on this thread, I wrote in posting 86, that it was more likely his son. Don’t forget that you were insisting for several pages that he never existed.

I went to the library and saw the printed version. I than went on line and confirmed that there was no difference.

Lentulus Spinther, Publius Cornelius
Encyclopædia BritannicaWorkspace
Page 1 of 1

died c. 48 BC

a leading supporter of the Roman general Pompey the Great during the Civil War (49–45 BC) between Pompey and Julius Caesar; he was a brother of Lentulus Crus.

As curule aedile, Lentulus in 63 helped Cicero suppress Catiline’s conspiracy to overthrow the government. He was praetor in 60 and with Caesar’s aid became governor of the province of Nearer Spain in 59. As consul in 57 he worked to recall Cicero from exile and to restore his property to him. Lentulus governed Cilicia from 56 to 53. Despite his debt to Caesar, he joined the Pompeians in 49. Captured at the battle of Corfinium (Italy), he was granted clemency by Caesar, but he subsequently again went over to Pompey. After Pompey was decisively defeated at Pharsalus, Thessaly, in 48, Lentulus escaped to Rhodes; soon thereafter he fell into Caesar’s hands and was executed.

Until you provide credible evidence, I stand with the Catholic Encyclopedia that this was a fictional character.
I like Wikipedia but I know that it must be used with care. Not everything is states is true. They have the dates you suggest but I would take the Britannica over them.

 

[adrift]

Regarding the Pope, many Catholics believe that a Papal Order is infallable.

Many people’s belief does not make it so. Papal orders are not infallible. There has only been two infallible statements made. Statements are on faith and moral that based on Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. I am sure you can see that the document we have recently been discussing was signed by the Pope was a Papal Order. It was not infallible. I am sure you will agree.

 

[adrift]

Three notable Priests witnessed the Papal Order, and a Cardinal Validated it. The fact that the Pope did grant this audience was historically documented the next day, February 27, 1948 in L’Osservatore Romano, proof that the meeting did take place. There is nothing that says it must be video taped.

I didn’t say that the meeting didn’t take place

Pope Pius XII: Meets with Father Berti who claims that the Pope tells him to publish. No independent verification is presented.

There is no independent witness to say to publish. If it had been published as was the custom in L’Osservatore Romano that would have been independent. As it stands, there is no credible proof that the Pope said this. I personally don’t believe it. There is no verifiable proof he did. Bishop Roman Danylak, a supporter of the Poem, verified it had no imprimatur.

First Vatican Council, Session IV, Chp. IV, p.IX - “So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.” - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 883 - "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.”

Meaningless in this context. I must add this would apply to todays Pope who says it should be referred to as fiction.

A will is valid with two witnesses, not even Priests. A person can go to Jail for life as a result of the testimony of one witness. Yet the testimony of three notable Roman Catholic Priests and a Cardinal are not enough for you?

An unwritten will as they say is as good as the paper it is written on. I imagine that the validity of a will would depend where. The state that I live it would not be valid. Perhaps your state is different. Cardinal? The only cardinal who has been mentioned was teaching and there is no evidence that he was in Rome at this time.

 

[BVXI]

As far as authentication is concerned I’ll go with the Bible any day over, most of what you posted.

The First Chapter of Apocalyspe pretty states, Christs Appearance. It is either believed in Faith or it is just knowledge, something to fancy a reader.

The Bible is Called “Sacred” and “Holy” by the Church. Everything in it is the Word of God. From Book 1 to the LAST One. The Whole Thing. If you do not believe it is, than you should go to the Church Holy Office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and tell them yourself.

Read the First 3 Chapters.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,

2 Who hath given testimony to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, what things soever he hath seen.

3 Blessed is he, that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy; and keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne,

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

11 Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks:

13 And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 And his head and his hairs were white, as white wool, and as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire,

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace. And his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as the sun shineth in his power.

17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last,

18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

19 Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter.

20 The mystery of the seven stars, which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

Now here in verse twenty Jesus is telling John what the mystery of the seven stars are along with the seven candlesticks.

The Person doing the explaining is Jesus, not an angel.

This is not an illusion, it is not symoblism, because this is How God is. He has many symbols, to us they are symbols to Him they are spiritual. Angels do not possess corporal bodies. They are pure spirits. If you have seen pictures of the Universe courtesy of NASA, you can then imagine God. He is not Human.
He operates on an entirely different level of works, actions, thinking, imagination. Our imagination comes from God, the abilit to imagine. God thinks and He makes it so, as He thinks, the thought of God is so simple but when it is done it brings for incredible results, such as the Universe. The Universe is matter.
God is not Matter. He is Spirit. Therefore only with Spirits can one comprehend God. Good NEWS! God gave us a Soul! With our souls the spiritual aspect of a Human being, or Man, we can than understand God spiritually, After a time of receiving from this Great Spiritual being, we than start to understand on a different level it’s called Spiritual understanding, not Mental.

The spirit thinks and is active once it begins it’s “regeneration” to Higher aspirations, which is To Know God. To Love God. To Serve God.

A overly learned person, knowledge heavy with little spiritual growth, is operating in the mind only, the reasoning is not inspired by the spirit, but by the intellect. Thus the Tree of Knowledge as depicted by God not to eat! Because when you do you lose the higher aspect of the Spirit being in control and know you live according to the lower nature, the flesh which was created to cover your spirit. Thus we read, in Genesis, “we were naked” and hid ourselves, before this event they were naked but they were not living according to the flesh, they were living according to the soul/spirit. Thus when the transformation took place after eating from the Tree of Knowledge, They became physically aware of their bodies. Whereas before, this event they were spiritual, and the flesh was “clothing.” Clad.

Part 1

 

[BVXI]

To make this distinction a bit more clear I use the angels.
The angels are pure spirits, no flesh, no gender, they are spiritual matter similar to God… For God is a consuming fire. Angels that are closest to God exhibit this attribute, thus we read in the Old Testament of Cherubims, but the highest is Seraph’s. They are flames. And Archangel is not as close to God’s throne so they exhibit less and are the ones who travel to this side of the Gate of Heaven and back.

God Himself is a spirit, without having this distinction in our knowledge base called the soul, we cannot understand what this means.

In Genesis is it stated after God breathed into Adam, Adam became a living soul, it does not say Adam became a living piece of flesh. Adam became a living piece of flesh when he ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Though he had a soul at first. By his choice he became less than what God created. He thus became his own god. Though God is God. Free will. Man lowered himself by this silly move. Of course he was enticed. Which means he had the craving to be like God. Thus we read, Lucifer saying “if you eat of this Tree you will be like God knowing good and evil.”

So, once you get this picture into your soul which means not your intellect, than after you have meditated on this for some time like a few months, things will become different, because you will understand the grief Adam caused God. Adam after being created by God said, oh, the woman gave me to eat, God gave specifics to Adam to make sure he and the woman did not eat from the Tree. God commanded them is what it says in Genesis to not eat from that Tree. We read in Exodus God giving 10 Commandments to Moses. We do not know how many commandments He gave to Adam, because it is not written how many He gave them. It is at this point irrelevant.

The Bible itself is put together to find out about God and man, there is an order to this, and they all string along, one building on the other, within each other, over each other, intertwining, a weave of knowledge, that is bound, held together by the Infinite God. Layers upon layers upon layers and at very core is God Himself saying You Found Me. One has to find Him in the Bible before one can be taught. This requires faith, and a will to know God. Once you have these, He then reveals Himself. At some point, you start to understand that “there’s” more! Wella, an astute reader will notice gaps, in timeline, events, in the Gospels.
Which then prompts one to think, hmm there is definitely more to this but where does one find the other parts? the ones that say what is not written here? Epistles. Then, an astute reader says, there’s alot here, but there’s more to this, who’s the author? Obviously, the Teacher of these disciples has taught them in some fashion. How? Through Revelations. The Holy Spirit brings us the Word. Depending on how much one wants to go, The Holy Spirit takes you. Comfort zone. The Infinite God is endless in Knowledge. Endless in Size. Endless in all things.

Thus we separate those who want to know more from those who are skeptical, afraid, or feel this is beyond their capacity, capability, and so forth. Thus you either stay grounded like bird with wings that are too heavy to flap, or you become and Eagle and fly high to as high as one can go! God is infinite, there is no end to Him. We can go and go and go, the pink bunny is nothing in comparison to what a true believer can accomplish in God. Life starts when we start regenerating and continues throughout eternity.

I stop arguing with Legalism, because that’s all it is legalities.

God is not legality. He is Spirit. There are no legals, but only in the Earth to govern skeptics and faithless generations. The not too bright, the overbearing, the fearful, etc.,.

When one reads the Bible with God teaching, one learns about God. He gives us more as we eat spiritual food to take us to higher levels within the Infinite God Who’s knowledge is unextinguishable and endless. There is no end to learning. This natural things are there to inspire one to spiritual things. To look up and say there’s more. As one gets closer to God the world fades into the background and it’s things are become less important.

Pray and long for Eternal things. Legalism gets you know where but chasing tail round and round you go and you spend so much time chasing tail, think of all that time you could have been with God in contemplation. Skepticism is legalism, because you look for evidence visual proof. God is invisible. It takes a great amount of faith to trust in something not seen. Thus many have a hard time with Bread and Wine. Because they can’t see God Who is invisible in Bread and Wine. One can only see God with the soul. Everything God is soul. No soul no God. If you can see God in the Bible it’s not hard to see Him in the Eucharist.

Peace

 

[adrift]

As far as authentication is concerned I’ll go with the Bible any day over, most of what you posted.

The First Chapter of Apocalyspe pretty states, Christs Appearance. It is either believed in Faith or it is just knowledge, something to fancy a reader.

Oky doky than you go right ahead and believe. Don’t look to the Church to agree with you though. My postings before are the accurate belief of the Church. So go ahead and believe that Jesus has white hair. White hair is not blond. Go ahead and believe that Jesus has seven horns and seven eyes but please do not say you are believing what the church teaches. teaches.

he Church is the one that I learned about scripture.
The Catechism 109 - 137
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.htm
Quote:
109
In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75
110
In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking, and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Apocalypse belongs to a class of literature dealing with eschatological subjects. The Apocalypse or Revelation using a lot of imagery. So when it says

Quote:
14
The hair of his head was as white as white wool or as snow.
usccb.org/nab/bible/revel…evelation1.htm
What the author intention is to say as footnoted in the New American Bible. This follows Church teaching.
Quote:
13 [14] Hair . . . as white as white wool or as snow: Christ is eternal, clothed with the dignity that belonged to the “Ancient of Days”; cf Rev 1:18; Daniel 7:9. His eyes were like a fiery flame: Christ is portrayed as all-knowing; cf Rev 2:23; Psalm 7:10; Jeremiah 17:10; and similar expressions in Rev 2:18; 19:12; cf Daniel 10:6.
Otherwise you would have to say that Jesus is a real lamb that has seven horns and seven eyes
Rev 5:6

Quote:
6
Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.
Or is that what you contend?

 

[adrift]

BVXI

All that you post is merely a red herring, to pull away from the fact that the book has been ruled by the Church as fiction.

 

[Insight]

It looks like there may be two different people, or two different spellings. I’m using an Encyclopedia Britannica 2003 Reference DVD. You looked up Publius Lentulus, I looked up Publius Lentrelus, and have no listing under “Lentulus”. Anyhow, like I said on page 6 of this thread (posting 86), it could have been his son, “The younger Lentrelus had his name and nickname (which was also Spinther) engraved on the reverse of his coins.” His son had the same name, and must have been of some significance to have his name on coins. It also shows that at least a person by the name of Publius Lentrelus existed in the proper time frame.

I also have Encyclopedia Encarta Reference Library Premium 2005 DVD, which has another version. It says that He was condemned by the Senate, but Caesar spared his life just before execution.

As far as one can tell, a stenographer from L’Osservatore Romano was not invited to the meeting. “An unwritten will as they say is as good as the paper it is written on.” - These aforementioned Priests documented this event immediately afterwards with signed testimony. Cardinal Edouard Gagnon wrote from the Vatican that Pope Pius XII’s action was: “The kind of official Imprimatur granted before witnesses by the Holy Father in 1948. An “Official Imprimatur” of the Supreme Authority of the Church”.

 

[adrift]

It looks like there may be two different people, or two different spellings. I’m using an Encyclopedia Britannica 2003 Reference DVD. You looked up Publius Lentulus, I looked up Publius Lentrelus, and have no listing under “Lentulus”. Anyhow, like I said on page 6 of this thread (posting 86), it could have been his son, “The younger Lentrelus had his name and nickname (which was also Spinther) engraved on the reverse of his coins.” His son had the same name, and must have been of some significance to have his name on coins. It also shows that at least a person by the name of Publius Lentrelus existed in the proper time frame.

I also have Encyclopedia Encarta Reference Library Premium 2005 DVD, which has another version. It says that He was condemned by the Senate, but Caesar spared his life just before execution.

I went to the library and was told how to access the on line version which I checked against the written and I have presented it here. There are no other entries with the spelling you have. It has to be filed under doubtful until other evidence surface. I really don’t see how it matters. Since the ruling of the Church is that the book is fiction. This ruling is not infallible. It could change but that is how it stands now.

As far as one can tell, a stenographer from L’Osservatore Romano was not invited to the meeting. “An unwritten will as they say is as good as the paper it is written on.” - These aforementioned Priests documented this event immediately afterwards with signed testimony. Cardinal Edouard Gagnon wrote from the Vatican that Pope Pius XII’s action was: “The kind of official Imprimatur granted before witnesses by the Holy Father in 1948. An “Official Imprimatur” of the Supreme Authority of the Church”.

Thats the problem they are not disinterested witnesses.
Do you have a source for the writings of Cardinal Gagnon His name has come up before. I believe it is claimed he was at the Vatican as a secretary. This web site gives the events in his life. It doesn’t mention this. Do you have something to document this letter?

I also found this

In 1941 he was sent to study Canon Law at Laval in Quebec City and in three years obtained his doctorate. On his return to Montreal he taught moral theology and canon law for ten years at the Grand Seminary.

      From 1954 to 1960 he was Seminary President at St. Boniface, Manitoba. In 1961 he was named rector of a major seminary in Colombia, South America. He was there for three years before returning to Canada, when he was elected Provincial of the Sulpicians for Canada, Japan and South America. During his time as Provincial he also acted as a peritus during the closing phase of Vatican Council II.

No mention of being in Rome.
This is all very interesting but has nothing to do to say that this isn’t fiction.

 

[Insight]

Cardinal Edouard Gagnon acted as a peritus during the closing phase of the second Vatican Council. His Obituary (cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=53133), says that He resigned his Vatican assignment in 1990. So he must have been at the Vatican.

I was told that the original letter is at The Basilica of the Annunciation in Florence, where Maria Valtorta is buried under the Altar. Bishop Roman Danylak has a copy, He had it on His website: HeartOfJesus.ca. He is in poor heath now, and His site just recently went down.