Polarity in the Church today

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OneSheep said:
Do you see a means by which we can turn things around?
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Maybe I see society as having taken a wrong turn when we all withdrew into the living room to watch the latest episode or the game.

Maybe what we need is to start working together on projects to change things rather than only focusing on getting the government to provide.

It seems like all of us want to see needy people being helped, but we have different ideas on how to do that. Some people focus too much on providing opportunity, others on government aid.

If we could dump all that and simply work together to help people, then some would learn that some poor people are not able to simply go to work, and other people would learn that economic opportunity is really necessary for some poor people.

(An aside: maybe this is what people think of when they think of the good old days or the 1950s as a good period?)

Anyway, I do not think we will be able to start unifying until we stop screaming at each other and start listening, and this applies to both sides of the aisle.
 
I’ll tell you what, I hear people say this about the pope, or that about this bishop, it doesn’t change the truth of the Gospel or the Catholic faith, regardless of what they do or what they believe. I feel like, not enough people trust God anymore. The Lord will provide, we just have to trust in him.
 
EndTimes said:
Judgement of souls - yes, people can yet must never do…
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Well, we do it without thinking, in my observation. But once we do judge in that way, here is the guide:
Mark 11:25 New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
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EndTimes said:
Recognizing for instance Sin in another - is not Judgement… rather, Discernment.
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Yes, in another, and especially in ourselves! 😀
 
I was going to link to that article too. The following I think are also relevant.
ConcernedConvert said:
People need to really stop saying that Jesus tells us not to judge one another… It’s completely not true.
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I agree with this. It is my understanding that we are to judge actions, but not the inner motives of the heart, or the eternal destination of souls - which is God’s role.

Judge Not Tim Staples • 2/14/2014 - scroll down to Judge Not Lest You Be Judged, and also the following section Jesus Commands Christians to Judge

CCC #1861 "… … However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. "

Fr. Dwight Longenecker Can I Judge Another Person or Not? June 26th, 2017 - “So can we judge others? We cannot judge their intentions or the state of their soul, but we can judge their actions.” …
and
“… the magisterium of the church provides more than ample instruction for judging the morality of our own actions and the explicit actions of others.”

Who Am I Not To Judge? Correcting the Sinner Is an Essential Work of Charity Msgr Charles Pope June 25, 2017 mentions various scripture verses and refers to a part of Summa Thelogica II, IIae.
 
I think we can become less polarized if we:
  1. Agree to defend and rally around Absolute Truth in a time when people are throwing up their arms and shouting 'fake news" willy nilly. Try to help each other determine what news organizations are compassionate and professional, recognizing that the mainstream ones, like most of the modern world, are not going to have a very good understanding on matters of sexual morality, but are usually otherwise professional. We need to be listening to the mainstream ones AND Christian ones to get the full picture, while avoiding creepy internet ones nobody has ever heard of that might be the mouthpieces of all sorts of evil groups.
  2. Find consensus on other things that really matter. I think most Christians can agree that patriotism is important. That racial justice is important, and that we have a lot of work to do here. Combined such virtues like patriotism AND racial justice, with God’s backing, are unstoppable!
  3. Be willing to change specific things that we have been doing wrong, even if we’ve been doing that way since the Industrial Revolution. We don’t always have to agree on what has to change. but we should be open to the idea of change virtually all the time.
 
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Emeraldlady said:
Everything seems to be so politically charged now. Political identity trumps Catholic identity.
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I think that may be a particularly American thing. Here in the UK I don’t think it is like that. I don’t think there is any political party over here that aligns with Catholic beliefs. I think there is division among Catholics over here (liberal v’s traditional/conservative etc) but I don’t see it as alligned around political parties.
 
Catholics in the US have several changes from 100 or 150 ago:
  1. we are mainstreamed, rather than politically marginalized or culturally insulated
  2. the two major parties oppose different portions of church teaching
  3. society and politics increasingly reject unapologetically Christian arguments in political policy.
  4. we have let ourselves be divided by how we handled the reforms of Vatican II
I think it is better to be spiritually united than politically relevant, honestly. If we are not one and one in Christ, what are we? I don’t mean we have to all be the same. I mean we have to see ourselves as fundamentally in unity.
 
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PetraG said:
Catholics in the US have several changes from 100 or 150 ago:
  1. we are mainstreamed, rather than politically marginalized or culturally insulated
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I think that is a major difference between the USA and UK (and much of Europe). Over here we are not mainstream, we are marginalised and our beliefs are increasingly being viewed as extreme by the mainstream.
 
Yes I second that. Not so much by personal experience but definitely when you read the cases of people helped by Christian Concern.

Weirdly enough there have been situations I have been able to use the abominable Equality Act for me … it’s normally just a tool they use to bash Christians with
 
Frankie65 said:
Not so much by personal experience but definitely when you read the cases of people helped by Christian Concern.
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I think Christian Concern are a very good organisation. They’re predominantly Evangelical Protestants, I think, but they do good work and are worth supporting. They’re good people and a strong voice in the legal defence of Christians in the UK.
 
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CRV said:
CCC #1861 "… … However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. "
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Exactly. We are not to judge people, we are to judge the acts. If, however, we hold the act that a person does against their value as a beloved child of God, then we are called to forgive. Mark 11:25
PetraG said:
I mean we have to see ourselves as fundamentally in unity.
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How do we help Catholics see one another this way?
that_emotional_one said:
Combined such virtues like patriotism AND racial justice, with God’s backing, are unstoppable!
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Some Catholics would say that patriotism can be taken to an extreme, especially when it conflicts with Christian values.

Have you always had good experiences with patriotism?
 
Discernment of ignorance, doubt, sin…
OneSheep said:
But once we do judge in that way, here is the guide:
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And of course this - which is our duty when/if necessary

First three Spiritual Acts of Mercy

To instruct the ignorant. To counsel the doubtful. To admonish the sinners.
 
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EndTimes said:
And of course this - which is our duty when/if necessary

First three Spiritual Acts of Mercy

To instruct the ignorant. To counsel the doubtful. To admonish the sinners.
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Exactly. And since these are acts of mercy, a person is to carry out these acts mercifully, which means that we are to forgive people first, especially before we admonish (when the forgiveness is applicable). We are to treat others as we would like to be treated, so instruction, counsel, and admonishment are to be exercised charitably and compassionately. If we judge/condemn the person, the act of mercy is certainly contradicted.
 
OneSheep said:
Exactly. And since these are acts of mercy, a person is to carry out these acts mercifully , which means that we are to forgive people first, especially before we admonish (when the forgiveness is applicable). We are to treat others as we would like to be treated, so instruction, counsel, and admonishment are to be exercised charitably and compassionately. If we judge/condemn the person, the act of mercy is certainly contradicted.
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Indeed!

Which dovetails with my prior,
" Judgement of souls - yes, people can yet must never do… "
presented so that we’re quite clear as to what ‘Judgement’ means… .
 
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OneSheep said:
Exactly. We are not to judge people, we are to judge the acts. If, however, we hold the act that a person does against their value as a beloved child of God, then we are called to forgive.
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Agreed. Because then we are judging the person and not the act.

And not knowing the interior motives or the guilt the person is culpable for in the eyes of God - we have judged rashly and provided this rash judgement remains interior then that is something we seek God’s forgiveness for. If we’ve spoken and condemned another rashly without knowing whether it really is true (even if the secular court has found the person guilty [and the person has stated they are innocent], we still don’t know that persons’ motives, intentions and culpability before God) - so should not verbally condemn them either.

Though the explicit actions are a different matter, as is if the person themselves admit guilt voluntarily (not under duress or torture and therefore most likely a false admission of guilt).

Mark 11:25 - yes, if they’ve sinned against ourselves, we should always forgive the person from the heart and the will and the intellect. Thus we should not hold grudges.
 
CRV said:
yes, if they’ve sinned against ourselves, we should always forgive the person from the heart and the will and the intellect. Thus we should not hold grudges.
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Exactly, I agree! 😀

And what we have in the Church, for some people, is a big divide. Some people hold the ideologies, affiliations, opinions against the other’s value as a beloved child of God, it is as if “oh, you support Trump, you are against Christian values/the Church” or “oh, you are support liberal candidates, you are against Christian values/the Church”.

Mark 11:25 still applies.

How do we move beyond the grudges?
 
OneSheep said:
How do we help Catholics see one another this way?
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Do it ourselves.
We’re not all teachers or prophets, or we’re not meant to be, but we’re all witnesses.
By that I mean being conscientious about seeing the good in those we have differences with, and not in a “bless their hearts” kind of way.
 
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