Police "Stings" and Hidden Cameras at Mass

[maregough]

Read the article. This was a pretty cheap shot from the church. The man is old and sick and donated 31 years of service to this church. How many priests have embezzeled money from the church and they have not been treated like a common criminial. Is it because he was some poor schlump? I have seen this priest in action he is a showoff and very consumed with money because this has become a very wealthy parish. Not so when JimmyMac was working and using his pickup to help the church grow. Did they stop to take into consideration the man’s age and the fact that his mental health was compromised. Why did they not speak to the family this would have been the Christian thing to do. They could have dismissed him from his duties with the help of the family. This was a cheap shot in a very Southern Baptist environment. Made us catholics look bad. What was he trying to prove?

 

[kesa82]

Having cameras in church is nothing like the Gestapo whether the police placed them or the parish did. The man in this story was not stolen from his family in the night, tortured or killed. He was not locked into a room and questioned without food or water for days without sleep. He was not singled out for no reason either! To equate the police with the Gestapo for doing their job within the boundaries of the law is irresponsible and uncharitable. It evinces a clear lack of knowledge of what the real Gestapo did and it demeans their real victims.

I beg to differ. I have studied the Gestapo, the NKVD, Fascism and Communism and this " free" country since I was ten. I went to a police academy, and my mother was a police officer. These are not my opinions, they are my experiences. Most career Gestapo were not indoctrinated Hitler Youth, they grew up and came of Age in Imperial or even Weimar Germany. Many of them Knew all about John Locke, The Rights of Man, The Bill of Rights, etc., and THEY WERE following the LETTER of the law. But to quote Cool Hand Luke, " calling it your job doesn’t make it right." ( the books " Ordinary Men; Police Battalion 101 and the final solution in Poland", and " The Field Men ; SS Einsatzgruppen in Russia go into extensive detail on the demographics / socio-economic status and background of german police in that period. Alexsandyr Solzhenitsyn’s " Gulag Archipelago contains a great deal of anecdotal material on the true nature of police in the modern world as opposed to the pre-revolutionary world. The second half of the chapter " The Blue Caps " has universal application , and specifically to police.) A single direct observation ; my sisters son climbed up on a table when she wasn’t looking, he fell off, and almost split his head open. As per routine, she and her husband were reported for possible child abuse. It took them over a year of trauma and red tape - and a great deal of money- to clear up the matter, and that was one of the BETTER outcomes I have seen. Do you have $ 10,000 dollars in your pocket to give to a lawyer RIGHT NOW? THE STATE HAS 20 times that at hand. THAT is what you face when you walk into court. I have lost track of the number of cases where a person was exonerated/ found innocent - but so what??? - The process bankrupted them. How can any of that be called reasonable, fair, or just ? But hey, the police never lie The police never commit crimes of their own. The state never lies. And the state never hits helpless individuals with politically motivated trumped-up charges. I guess we must be living in two different countries eh ? To hear you people tell it, what happened in Germany, what happened to blacks here 30 years ago, and what happens to the poor now, is all due to a tiny minority of racist crackpots. The thing I don’t get about you law-and-order types is that you invoke law , tradition, and parens patria where and when it suits you.
As I recall, the Soviets considered John Paul II subversive, and what was Jesus convicted and executed for ? Oh yes, SEDITION. But those cases don’t count do they?

 

[kesa82]

A few more things, somebody is bound to say, " Well, if someone was trying to kill you who would you call ? " Well, IN MY EXPERIENCE if someone were trying to kill me , that would be too bad. The police might send the EMS boys to clean up my corpse. Otherwise, they only defend their own kith, kin, and cronies, or pretend to defend - for the cameras - whatever special interest demographic happens to be popular at the moment.
You folks always invoke the argument, " But there has to be a line, there has to be a balance . " But the trouble with that is, I am 38 years old and I have a long memory. When you folks ushered in the income tax you said that it was just a temporary wartime measure. The trouble is, the Kaiser has been on ice a long time now. When does this temporary emergency end? When they started making people urinate into cups they said it was just going to be pilots and truck drivers. And you said, back in the day, that these cameras were just going to be for banks and army bases and such as that. So, AFTER 38 YEARS - maybe I’m crazy - but I think it is reasonable to ask WHEN and WHERE are you going to draw this line???
I would like an answer - yesturday.

 

[pnewton]

I went to a police academy, and my mother was a police officer. These are not my opinions, they are my experiences. Most career Gestapo were not indoctrinated Hitler Youth, they grew up and came of Age in Imperial or even Weimar Germany… The police never commit crimes of their own. The state never lies. And the state never hits helpless individuals with politically motivated trumped-up charges.

There is a rule of thumb on the internet that the side to bring up Hitler or Nazis has run out of any useful things to say. Well, my experience trumps your in spades (ooh, Academy) and your bashing and paranoia about police is unfounded. Using “never” to make your sarcasm true, does not change the fact that the vast majority of the time the police do not lie or target political targets. Of course there are occasions that exceptional where police commit a crime, like perjury, but that is very rare. One reason why videotape would be used in a situation like this is to eliminate that possibility.

I simply have no patience or respect for anyone who is prejudice and disrespectful against all policemen, or anyone else who will put their life on the line for them.

 

[pnewton]

I have seen this priest in action he is a showoff and very consumed with money because this has become a very wealthy parish. Not so when JimmyMac was working and using his pickup to help the church grow. Did they stop to take into consideration the man’s age and the fact that his mental health was compromised. Why did they not speak to the family this would have been the Christian thing to do. They could have dismissed him from his duties with the help of the family. This was a cheap shot in a very Southern Baptist environment. Made us catholics look bad. What was he trying to prove?

Thank you for a personal perspective. It puts a different view on things. You make a good point and one that has caused me to re-think this article.

 

[kesa82]

There is a rule of thumb on the internet that the side to bring up Hitler or Nazis has run out of any useful things to say. Well, my experience trumps your in spades (ooh, Academy) and your bashing and paranoia about police is unfounded. Using “never” to make your sarcasm true, does not change the fact that the vast majority of the time the police do not lie or target political targets.
Not true. Of course there are occasions that exceptional where police commit a crime,
like perjury, but that is very rare.
Not so.
One reason why videotape would be used in a situation like this is to eliminate that possibility.
And why did that become necessary?

I simply have no patience or respect for anyone who is prejudice and disrespectful against all policemen, or anyone else who will put their life on the line for them.

When you take off the funny costume and put your life on the line for another without the power of the state behind you, and without any renumeration, I will conceed that your experience is equal to mine. You are one to talk about prejudice and disrespect , going about armed to the teeth.

 

[kesa82]

There is a rule of thumb on the internet that the side to bring up Hitler or Nazis has run out of any useful things to say. Well, my experience trumps your in spades (ooh, Academy) and your bashing and paranoia about police is unfounded. Using “never” to make your sarcasm true, does not change the fact that the vast majority of the time the police do not lie or target political targets. Of course there are occasions that exceptional where police commit a crime, like perjury, but that is very rare. One reason why videotape would be used in a situation like this is to eliminate that possibility.

I simply have no patience or respect for anyone who is prejudice and disrespectful against all policemen, or anyone else who will put their life on the line for them.

I was a member of the Communist Party DURING the cold war. So , yes, I do think I recognize my own - former - kind.
As for my Soviet buddies, well, the Soviet Union was very very far away. I had myself and not much else. It goes without saying that I wasn’t the most popular kid on the block. I didn’t lose my family, I just lost completely any respect or trust they had in my judgement. And FOR WHAT? You will deny it of course, but I submitted to that crucible because I wanted to make the world a better place.
So you put on a funny costume and join a herd, and I’m supposed to be in awe, or impressed, or intimidated by you?

Let’s talk some more about experience shall we? I said my mother was a police officer. The funny thing was, I’m not psychic, but I predicted when she took that job that they would get rid of her. Why? Because my mother is a well-meaning, god-fearing, reasonable, compassionate 50 year old woman with a strong internal moral compass who raised four kids and somehow survived in the private sector for 30 years with no help from uncle sam and managed to get a doctorate. Police recruiting world-wide weeds out such people. Sure enough, two years later they got rid of her. She took them to court. They offered her $ 60,000 and her old job back out of court, but believe it or not, ( and you will of course claim not ) she wanted her vindication in court. She lost - BECAUSE she ran out of money for lawyers.
Wanna talk some more about experience ?

 

[Walt_Oliver]

WARNING

This thread is wandering off topic and the charity exibited, especially toward police officers, is declining. Please adhere to the forum rules in both cases. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[pnewton]

I was a member of the Communist Party DURING the cold war.

I see! All too well where you are coming from. By experieince I was referring to the positive kind. I have twenty plus years in law enforcement serving the people. Fortunately we live in a democracy and not a communist state, where the vast majority of people continue to elect local officials who will uphold the law, even when unpleasant. Now whether or not this priest was out of line, I will bow to maregough’s better experience. But the police are responsible for helping victims or crime if requested.

There will always be a minority that wish to side with criminals over police, be they communist or criminals themselves, but most Americans support the rule of law, and believe that violators should be punished.

In this case, one would think that the judge (or jury) will take into account the man’s age and service. If this is his first offense, I doubt much will come of it, except protection from future theft.

 

[contemplative]

Read the article. This was a pretty cheap shot from the church.

The man is old and sick and donated 31 years of service to this church.

How many priests have embezzeled money from the church and they have not been treated like a common criminial. Is it because he was some poor schlump?

I have seen this priest in action he is a showoff and very consumed with money because this has become a very wealthy parish.

I strongly disagree.

And how many of those 31 years was he servicing and stealing?

Poor shlump…indeed…and many priests are treated like criminals when they deserve it.

At this point I believe nothing of what you say…especially now.

I support the priest and his actions despite what your opinion is. I support the actions of the priest in this matter. He did the right thing…

 

[contemplative]

WARNING

This thread is wandering off topic and the charity exibited, especially toward police officers, is declining. Please adhere to the forum rules in both cases. Thanks for your cooperation.

Thanks

 

[contemplative]

WARNING

This thread is wandering off topic and the charity exibited, especially toward police officers, is declining. Please adhere to the forum rules in both cases. Thanks for your cooperation.

and thanks again

 

[prv]

Well, my compassion goes out to the sinner too. And it also goes out to the ones ‘sinned against’. That money goes for fuel bills, it goes for programs to feed and clothe the poor. So maybe the ‘marked $20’ is the only bill that can be proved to have been stolen? By the man’s own admission he has stolen before. And not from some big almighty ‘corporation’ but from the people in the pews–his friends and neighbors. Because that’s where most of the money goes to–supplying a place for them to worship, supplying spiritual and corporal works of mercy to them, their families, and their own contributions to charities.

What if this were 300 years ago and he was taking harvest foods figuratively speaking from the mouths of the poor? What if his theft of the then equivalent of $20 in food or goods was the reason that some poor widow froze to death or some child starved to death?

Stealing is stealing. The end doesn’t justify the means. This man knew he was stealing and he is the one we should be considering–not to cast stones, but certainly not to raise to the status of “poor misunderstood man being PERSECUTED by money grubbers”.

You know, one of the reasons that we have all kinds of sin, bad behavior, and general apathy today is that nobody wants to take a stand, for fear that they’ll be labeled as unkind, unChristian, or only concerned about what’s in it for them.

So people can go ahead and steal, and curse, and lie, and cheat, and commit all sorts of sexual sin. . .because so many will just say, “Oh, we can’t BLAME poor so and so because he’s old. . .he’s poor. . .he’s ethnic. . .he’s this and this and everything else, anything but responsible for his actions.”

I notice some people have no trouble whatsoever in casting blame, and deriding, the priest, or the police, who are simply in the case of the police doing their job as upholders of the law, and in the case of the priest, trying to shepherd his flock without having them be, pardon the expression, fleeced.

W/o reading the article yet, I want to take this time to suggest that the Church beef up its own tribunal system in order to correct offenders of this type (namely thieves in the collection basket, etc.) first before having to use civil penalties. This would seem more pastoral, as the ecclesiastical tribunals allegedly exist for the correction of the offenders as opposed to mere “justice” by the state. There is a limit, however, that this should be used, and sometimes, like the sex abuse cases (don’t discuss this here), ecclesiastical penalties (excommunication) as well as civil ones (namely jail time plus fines against individual offenders) need to be used in combination.

 

[prv]

No…priests no longer get ushered out quietly when they are found to be criminal. Those days are long gone.

I can hear that you are really angry about this news story and I am sorry. Perhaps I’ve lived longer than you. Maybe I’ve seen more and heard more than you…
Over the years I’ve witnessed a number of senseless petty thefts in churches, parish centers and Catholic schools. This is painfully sad to hear and see…I think that at any given time there will be a certain percentage of people who think they have the right to fleece the Church. Maybe more people who are inclined to steal will think twice about being criminals and sinners after reading about this sting operation. It might do them good to know that God isn’t the only one watching. Parishioners have been fleecing for as long as I can remember…maybe it is time that they too get ushered out in new kind of way.

I think it should be the reverse…they should know that not only mere humans are watching, God is also watching, who will issue a judgement on the last day, in addition to the ones which are necessary on earth to correct an offender and prevent society from being harmed.

 

[contemplative]

I think it should be the reverse…they should know that not only mere humans are watching, God is also watching, who will issue a judgement on the last day, in addition to the ones which are necessary on earth to correct an offender and prevent society from being harmed.

I have no contradiction.

 

[TimOliv]

W/o reading the article yet, I want to take this time to suggest that the Church beef up its own tribunal system in order to correct offenders of this type (namely thieves in the collection basket, etc.) first before having to use civil penalties. This would seem more pastoral, as the ecclesiastical tribunals allegedly exist for the correction of the offenders as opposed to mere “justice” by the state. There is a limit, however, that this should be used, and sometimes, like the sex abuse cases (don’t discuss this here), ecclesiastical penalties (excommunication) as well as civil ones (namely jail time plus fines against individual offenders) need to be used in combination.

Well, then your answer pretty much means that every time a person does something wrong, we just excommunicate them. I don’t know what other penalty a tribunal could levy against a lay person besides excommunication, barring that person from working in Diocesan schools or institutions or something along those lines.

Your idea would set a very dangerous precedent. Namely, if you steal from the church, grab as much as you can the first time because you’ll most likely just get a wrist slap.

When you steal from the church, you deserve to be arrested. Someone stole a local church’s collection a few weeks back. I wish our local police would set something up there to catch the person who did it, and I certainly don’t think the Diocese should be handling the punishment in that case.

Let the tribunals worry about disciplining Priests and religious, there is no need to try to usurp the judicial system for the laity.

 

[contramundum7]

I’m in conflict with my convictions and disgusted with my Church. In Raleigh, NC an article appeared on the front page of the newspaper today stating that a “sting operation” was done during the New Year’s Day Mass to catch someone taking money out of the offering plate. The “sting” involved 5 undercover police officers and 10 hidden cameras. The “target” was a long-time 75-year old usher (parishner). They had to perform the “sting” three times before they arrested him. They caught him with a police marked $20 bill.

My conflict:Our Monsignor suspected who this person was – the sting was targeted specifically against him.

1. Why didn’t the Monsignor talk/council the person (or all the ushers if he didn’t want to single out an individual)?
2. Is this what our Church is coming to; the “almighty dollar” becomes more important than a priest’s obligation to council, show grace, and lead a wayward 75 year old man back to the flock?

Ironically, this front page article ajoins another front page story headlined “Lacrosse pair back in Duke’s good graces”

Hey - some good came out of it. Policemen at Mass. Maybe some of them had never been there before… (Maybe??)