Political Philosophy: An arguement in support of Gay rights

[InSearchofGrace]

Were you offended by my post and my request for open debates and discussion to involve compassion? Not sure why the need to post a link to another thread. I have nothing to hide about who I am and what I believe to be right. Were you trying to “expose” me to others so they might then respond for my request for compassion? Not quite sure where you’re coming from. …

I thought my post explained the reason I linked yours on a related thread. It was not to ‘expose’ you in mean spirit, as you may be alluding here. You, like all CAF members upon joining the forum do not provide personal information beyond an anonymous username, faith identification (which is optional, and not always accurate), and views and beliefs which you on your own volition post in participation in any open thread.

As I stated, the divide in views and the several side issues (like the usage of certain words) do not get bridged by simply invoking the Golden Rule, frequent citing of the verse by pro-gays on “Judge not lest ye be judged …,” and the call to charity at the expense of truth. I don’t object to a call to civility in discourse, which is not the same.

No offense is taken with your call for open discussion to involve compassion. If you are talking about compassion for those with unwanted same sex attraction or those who regret living the gay lifestyle, I have no disagreement.

Participating members gravitate to threads of certain subjects. The subject of interest for you is apparent. My interest in same comes from a concern for the direction the country is being taken with this radical social experiment of SS"M." The stance stems from alignment with Catholic teaching based on Scripture, Tradition, natural law principles, and common sense! Those who do not agree with it make undeserved accusations of bigotry or ‘homophobia.‘ Having a homosexual brother in my family does not blind me to regard gay theology or philosophy or politics as reason to turn my back on a deeply held belief that promotes the family and individual good, in the life for the here and now and for eternity.

I do have a question for you regarding your statement “Nobody has called for discrimination and maltreatment of homosexuals in this thread”. Have you read through all 26 pages of postings? I have. I read some great postings in regards to the OP. I learned a lot and I am blown away and impressed with some members on both sides of the discussion.

I read all pages of postings. Did you read mine (this is #8 from a total of 397 posts so far?) that included the objective reasons I do not subscribe to the OP’s train of thought?

However, where I have a problem is when people abuse this type of forum and feel like they can spew all kinds of awful words just because they are hiding behind a computer screen. Just a couple for example:
"the word GAY has come to mean “Got Aids Yet”." …“Our Church is undergoing a very dark time. We have been infiltrated by homosexuals using the robes of piety as a guise for their depraved thoughts and ways. It is time for we Catholics to clean our Church as Our Lord cleaned the temple of depraved activities. There may be a place for homosexuals to practice their depraved activities, but our church is most certainly not that place” These were terrible terrible things that happened because Pedophiles and they were protected from within for too long! Pedophiles are heterosexuals and homosexuals who pray on children.

Also, calling gay men sodomites is in fact offensive. There are better choices of words that are more acceptable. Have we not learned that words can be very damaging and offensive. For example, do you still your the “N” word in referring to black people? I’m assuming not however in the past this term was widely acceptable. I’m also assuming that this forum is full of educated individuals who know how to communicate more effectively.

You are the one who brought up that gay has come to mean “Got AIDS Yet”. I would say that would be an antagonistic and unkind reference to homosexuals. However, when an objective discussion of how AIDS became an epidemic in the 80’s gets going, the fact that it started as a disease commonly diagnosed in promiscuous men who have sex with men is a matter of record with the CDC, before its spread to the heterosexual population.

As for your comment on the homosexual and pedophile problem of the Church, I agree with you. Homosexuals with deep seated tendency and pedophiles should have been weeded out upon application or during priest formation well before ordination. As you may know, the Church, in putting to practice her teaching of redemption and forgiveness sent the priests acting in sinful and harmful behavior towards the young to mental health professionals to be helped. It took a cascading crisis for the institution to realize its big failure.

The word ‘sodomite’ usage has been debated and you are simply repeating what was already said by those who side with the OP. However, the opposing point of view has good arguments in my opinion that you choose to dismiss.

[/con’t]

 

[guest24]

I notice you have made no remarks concerning the efforts in some public schools to normalize the teaching of same-sex partners and marriage in the classroom. Since this is offensive to the morals of Christian school children who attend public schools, you might have noted that same-sex agendas in the classroom also ought to be forbidden. If Christian morals are not to be addressed in the classroom, neither should pagan morals be addressed there.

Charlemagne ll

Read again. I said that it is not right for a public school teacher whose salary is payed by tax payers to promote personal opinion on such matters (gay and anti-gay agendas, etc). A teacher should not “promote” there personal agenda in the classroom, unless it is a private institution. Therefore, this creates a safe environment for all children of different backgrounds and family beliefs.

The reality is, there are children in that school who have same sex parents, heterosexual parents, Christian parents, Jewish parents, etc. The reality is, there will be school events, parent teacher conferences, fund raisers, sporting events where these parents and children will be interacting. There will be situations where a child who is brought up to believe that homosexuality is wrong will be teamed up on a project or become friends with a student who is gay or who has parents of the same sex.

Who are we protecting by not acknowledging that there are different types of family’s in our communities. This is not promoting an agenda.

Our public school system should not be in the business of “promoting” any type moral agenda. This should come from the home. This should come from the parents! Not the school!

 

[sedonaman]

guest
**
This goes back to the original argument regarding what rights to we have as American citizens under the Laws of our government (not our God). I’m not arguing for the Christian church to change what they believe and what they teach. The point is that here in the US our government has laws put in place to protect all citizens regardless of faith, non-faith, race, sex, age etc. They are not put is place to protect just one group of people. **

I notice you have made no remarks concerning the efforts in some public schools to normalize the teaching of same-sex partners and marriage in the classroom. Since this is offensive to the morals of Christian school children who attend public schools, you might have noted that same-sex agendas in the classroom also ought to be forbidden. If Christian morals are not to be addressed in the classroom, neither should pagan morals be addressed there.

guest24 also alludes that rights come from our government and not God.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

[/Con’t]

…
I love the opportunity to have a good discussion/debate. I think this is a wonderful site and a great resource. Its unfortunate when people use it to preach their hate agenda.
I have said nothing other than the request for people to have compassion and love for thy neighbor. Believe what you believe. That is the amazing and wondering gift we have because we live where we live.

Just so you can stop assuming… I’ve known that I was gay my entire life. I am a successful educated female and I am married to a wonderful women. I belong to a wonderful Catholic community here in MA. For the 1st 28 years of my life I always felt the Catholic church consisted of hypocrisy. I’ve seen people preaching on the street about gays, sinners and hell. Ive seen people handing out pamphlets with bloodied pictures of Christ stating that gays were all going to hell. I’ve had friends attacked and beat up on the street just because someone thought they were gay. However one day, I met a group of amazing compassionate Catholics and we started debating. I started researching different topics and I even started attending Mass which I now attend regularly. I befriended a wondering Priest who I speak with regularly to discuss different topics and teachings. And just so you know, everyone in my community knows that I am gay and very happily married. Do I still struggle with my faith? Yes, every day. But I continue work on my relationship with God by constant prayer and continue to educate myself on my faith.

My hole point is there are better ways of getting your point across to people. Through compassion, love and understanding. By using hateful language you are only going to push other people away from the faith. It is just as important for other people to learn about the Catholic faith as it is for Catholics to learn about other people.
Rather you like it or not, we live in the USA. We have many people of different faiths and backgrounds and it is important that we all learn to live next door to each other.
…

That’s good that you found a Catholic group. If that group is really Catholic, meaning in communion with Rome and the USCCB, the priest and the people you say who know you are gay and happily married, are certainly not setting aside the applicable teaching on homosexuality and the official position on the legalization of SS”M” notwithstanding that it was made legal in your state since 2004.

By maintaining that you are happy in your same sex marriage status says a lot about where you are on the debate and why. Please don’t equate your call for compassion, love and understanding to a call for affirmation of your personal choice in life.

I will include you, who goes by the username of guest24 at CAF, in my prayers. It will serve you to find the time to read and contemplate on these words by Bishop Fulton Sheen. Finally, may your personal journey lead you to the truth.
,

 

[guest24]

No offense is taken with your call for open discussion to involve compassion. If you are talking about compassion for those with unwanted same sex attraction or those who regret living the gay lifestyle, I have no disagreement.

Participating members gravitate to threads of certain subjects. The subject of interest for you is apparent. My interest in same comes from a concern for the direction the country is being taken with this radical social experiment of SS"M." The stance stems from alignment with Catholic teaching based on Scripture, Tradition, natural law principles, and common sense! Those who do not agree with it make undeserved accusations of bigotry or ‘homophobia.‘ Having a homosexual brother in my family does not blind me to regard gay theology or philosophy or politics as reason to turn my back on a deeply held belief that promotes the family and individual good, in the life for the here and now and for eternity.

You are the one who brought up that gay has come to mean “Got AIDS Yet”. I would say that would be an antagonistic and unkind reference to homosexuals…

As for your comment on the homosexual and pedophile problem of the Church, I agree with you. Homosexuals with deep seated tendency and pedophiles …
[/con’t]

As a Christian you get to pick and chose who you compassion for? Does that correlate with the Christian teaching? Just wondering. I think I’ve heard the term people use for picking and choosing what to follow.

Yes, I agree, the entire reason to comment on threads is because you have an interest. I’m happy you felt the need to state that. I’m sure nobody else on this thread has any interest with the topic at hand. I’m sure they are just wasting their time with postings that they care nothing about. Good point.

So you think that those who disagree with your point of view think your gay? Or a bigot? Now there may be other reasons why someone might think those things of you however I do not know you. I’ve only read your posts and to surprise I disagree with you, and I guess, to your surprise, based solely on what I read, I refuse to compliment you by calling you gay, and I did not call you a bigot, did I? I just said I disagreed with you. Also, I chose to disclose personal information about myself because I have nothing to hide or feel any shame. On the contrary I feel incredibly blessed to be exactly who I am, have the people in my life and to have a very powerful relationship with GOD.

Where do you get off by saying that I was the one who brought the statement regarding what the letters GAY mean??? That is an insult! You asked for examples of postings of what I considered to be offensive. That statement came from Sedonaman. Re-read the posts!

And I like how you twisted my comment about the sex abuse scandal in the Church. These terrible priests who abused our children were Pedophiles! And the church leaders protected these men allowing for them to abuse more children! This issue has absolutely nothing to do with being gay or straight! In addition, your comment to rid homosexuals from the church is a terrible comment! I can’t believe you are speaking of gods children this way! If someone is called to be closer to God or is interested in the Church, instead of education you want to condemn! You want to throw them aside! Who are you to judge! God is our only judge! And those who try to impose Gods judgement for Him will also fave Him and Judgement day!

I’ll pray for you “insearchofgrace”.

Have a great debate/discussion. Talk about these issue. You are no better than me and I no better than you. We all try our best and we will all be judged.

Peace be with you

 

[guest24]

guest24 also alludes that rights come from our government and not God.

You’ve miss quoted me. As you stated, lets get real. All of our rights come from God. I was speaking of the United States of America and our government. Our “Civil Rights” under our government.

Not everyone believes what you believe or practices what you practice. That the entire point!

 

[guest24]

[/Con’t]

That’s good that you found a Catholic group. If that group is really Catholic, meaning in communion with Rome and the USCCB, the priest and the people you say who know you are gay and happily married, are certainly not setting aside the applicable teaching on homosexuality and the official position on the legalization of SS”M” notwithstanding that it was made legal in your state since 2004.

By maintaining that you are happy in your same sex marriage status says a lot about where you are on the debate and why. Please don’t equate your call for compassion, love and understanding to a call for affirmation of your personal choice in life.

I will include you, who goes by the username of guest24 at CAF, in my prayers. It will serve you to find the time to read and contemplate on these words by Bishop Fulton Sheen. Finally, may your personal journey lead you to the truth.
,

I appreciate your prayers. We can all use them.

A couple points. There you go again assuming that just because a some Catholics are compassionate to a homosexual, that means they must not be “real Catholics”. Unbelievable. But just to put your mind at ease, Yes I attend a Roman Catholic Church. And I know it sounds crazy but I’ve even had multiple conversations with our Cardinal O’malley. It is possible to still have conversation with out spewing hate or calling names or making assumptions.

Oh and one last thing. Coming from a Gay adult, being Gay is not a choice!

Peace be with you

 

[sedonaman]

You’ve miss quoted me. As you stated, lets get real. All of our rights come from God. I was speaking of the United States of America and our government. Our “Civil Rights” under our government.

Not everyone believes what you believe or practices what you practice. That the entire point!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

InSearch

Please don’t equate your call for compassion, love and understanding to a call for affirmation of your personal choice in life.



All sinners need love and understanding, and they automatically get it from their fellow Christians. What we sinners do not seem to have, which is why we are all sinners, is love and understanding for God’s truth.

Without the truth, we are lost. As Jesus said, the devil is most of all a liar, and by his lies he is also a murderer of souls.

As Jesus said, scolding the Jews who did not recognize him:

“You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44

Jesus spoke harshly to these Jews, even though he loved and understood them.

Those who live in sin can ask for love and understanding. They cannot ask for approval … and they are wrong to conclude that disapproval means lack of love and understanding.

 

[guest24]

InSearch

Please don’t equate your call for compassion, love and understanding to a call for affirmation of your personal choice in life.



All sinners need love and understanding, and they automatically get it from their fellow Christians. What we sinners do not seem to have, which is why we are all sinners, is love and understanding for God’s truth.

Without the truth, we are lost. As Jesus said, the devil is most of all a liar, and by his lies he is also a murderer of souls.

As Jesus said, scolding the Jews who did not recognize him:

“You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44

Jesus spoke harshly to these Jews, even though he loved and understood them.

Those who live in sin can ask for love and understanding. They cannot ask for approval … and they are wrong to conclude that disapproval means lack of love and understanding.

Charlemagne II

I agree with you.

We are all sinners. We pray and look to God for guidance with how to navigate through our world and how to live our lives according to His Will.

By asking for compassion in my previous posts I was not seeking approval for anything. I mentioned Love, compassion and understanding. Never mentioned approval.

The only approval we should be seeking is that of our Lord.

Peace be with you

 

[Charlemagne_II]

guest

**Peace be with you **

*Et cum spiritu tuo! *

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I appreciate your prayers. We can all use them.

A couple points. There you go again assuming that just because a some Catholics are compassionate to a homosexual, that means they must not be “real Catholics”. Unbelievable. But just to put your mind at ease, Yes I attend a Roman Catholic Church. And I know it sounds crazy but I’ve even had multiple conversations with our Cardinal O’malley. It is possible to still have conversation with out spewing hate or calling names or making assumptions.

Oh and one last thing. Coming from a Gay adult, being Gay is not a choice!

Peace be with you

Hey, guest24,

I know I hit a nerve with you. You see, I did not assume you were in a same sex marriage with a woman because in your previous post, you were not clear enough. You offered your story later. I also did not assume you were talking about the Catholic Church, until you clarified it following a conditional (not declarative) statement I made. There are many dissenting groups such as Dignity that has a Boston-based chapter, and New Ways Ministry, which try to pass as Catholic but are not or are no longer. If you noticed, I take care in not using sarcasm or reacting to it when you do.

As you said you don’t know me, and I don’t know you. But as surely as our common belief in God, I believe there is a human being on the other end of the line with a username of guest24 worthy of dignity and respect posting her heart out.

It is very hard to have exchanges in an internet forum; it does not have the advantageous factors or dynamics at play when having a conversation say over coffee with a new acquaintance. We go straight to issues and positions with little chance for prefacing and laying down foundation for an honest discourse.

My request is that you don’t in haste conclude that Charlemagne, Sedoman and InSearchofGrace are devoid of compassion

It is awesome that you have had direct contact with Cardinal O’Malley! He represents the good face of the Church, condemning violence and real bigotry against homosexuals, at the same time firmly holding up high the Church view of the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.

Now I know you will object to my saying that being gay is not a choice. However, I will not pursue a debate on it here as it is not really on topic of this thread and in a category that is more under Moral Theology than under Philosophy.

As for the discussion in this thread, I would appreciate it if you direct your attention to the last paragraph that I have on Post 390 and the last two paragraphs I have on Post 402.

Blessings,

 

[guest24]

Hey, guest24,

I know I hit a nerve with you…

As you said you don’t know me, and I don’t know you. But as surely as our common belief in God, I believe there is a human being on the other end of the line with a username of guest24 worthy of dignity and respect posting her heart out.

It is very hard to have exchanges in an internet forum; it does not have the advantageous factors or dynamics at play when having a conversation say over coffee with a new acquaintance. We go straight to issues and positions with little chance for prefacing and laying down foundation for an honest discourse.

My request is that you don’t in haste conclude that Charlemagne, Sedoman and InSearchofGrace are devoid of compassion

As for the discussion in this thread, I would appreciate it if you direct your attention to the last paragraph that I have on Post 390 and the last two paragraphs I have on Post 402.

Blessings,

Insearchofgrace

Thank you for your post. I absolutely agree with you that it is very hard to have exchanges on an internet forum versus a face to face conversation. Tone can very easily be misinterpreted.

You are correct in stating that this is a very passionate subject for me, but I want you to know that even though we disagree, I still respect for you and your opinions. I do want to apologize for using sarcasm. I don’t think it was appropriate and that’s not how i want to represent myself.

I am new to this site and I want you to know that I have the best intentions. I’m not trying to pretend I’m something that I’m not. What you see is what you get.

I absolutely do not think that insearchofgrace, sedoman or charlemagne are devoid of compassion. Since we are all made in Gods image, I believe we all have the ability to love, be compassionate, forgive, and understand.

By discussion/debating openly and honestly we can learn about each other and about our beliefs. I also believe that through prayer, communication and education we can all become better followers of Christ.

Again, I want to thank you for your posts and the ability to be honest on the subject matter. I hope that we can all continue our discussions, even on the “sensitive” topics.

Peace be with you

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Insearchofgrace

Thank you for your post. I absolutely agree with you that it is very hard to have exchanges on an internet forum versus a face to face conversation. Tone can very easily be misinterpreted.

You are correct in stating that this is a very passionate subject for me, but I want you to know that even though we disagree, I still respect for you and your opinions. I do want to apologize for using sarcasm. I don’t think it was appropriate and that’s not how i want to represent myself.

Apology accepted, guest24.

I am new to this site and I want you to know that I have the best intentions. I’m not trying to pretend I’m something that I’m not. What you see is what you get.

Glad to hear it, and welcome to CAF! Our awkward start, notwithstanding, I offer my hand in friendship.

http://www.smileyshut.com/Others/handshake-147.GIF

I absolutely do not think that insearchofgrace, sedoman or charlemagne are devoid of compassion. Since we are all made in Gods image, I believe we all have the ability to love, be compassionate, forgive, and understand.

By discussion/debating openly and honestly we can learn about each other and about our beliefs. I also believe that through prayer, communication and education we can all become better followers of Christ.

I agree.

Again, I want to thank you for your posts and the ability to be honest on the subject matter. I hope that we can all continue our discussions, even on the “sensitive” topics.

Peace be with you

I appreciate the gesture. It’s my wish as well that we can continue to discuss things, including sensitive topics.
,