Political Philosophy: An arguement in support of Gay rights

[guest24]

I want to apologize up front for this not being directly related to the original post.

I thought this was a Christian site? Why is there so much hatred and bigotry coming through? Regardless of what you believe to be morally right, please understand that there are people being persecuted and put to death around the globe for trying to live their lives the only way they believe to be right. This includes people of different faiths, women, homosexuals and others.

Please have compassion for those who are different than you. We are all Gods children and are all made in His image.

Peace be with all of you

 

[GraceSofia]

Regardless of what you believe to be morally right, please understand that there are people being persecuted and put to death around the globe for trying to live their lives the only way they believe to be right. This includes people of different faiths, women, homosexuals and others.

Yes, and Christians are the most-persecuted group on earth.

Most Persecuted Religion in the World

Virtually every human rights group and Western government agency that monitors the plight of Christians worldwide arrives at more or less the same conclusion: Between 200 million and 230 million of them face daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and torture, and a further 350 to 400 million encounter discrimination in areas such as jobs and housing. A conservative estimate of the** number of Christians killed for their faith each year is somewhere around 150,000.**
Christians are “the largest single group in the world which is being denied human rights on the basis of their faith,” the World Evangelical Alliance has noted.

It is also informative to look around this site: Persecution: International Christian Concern

 

[sedonaman]

Do you have an example of this? I have seen the claim made but never seen it substantiated that Christians are denied freedom of speech or denied suffrage for being Christian. However Christian and societal persecution of gays is very easily documented. The entire premise of this thread and the comments made here are a case in point.

I thought I posted this case earlier, or perhaps it was in another thread. This one of the more notorious cases of recent:

Student Sues School District and Teacher Over Punishment Received After He Expressed His Religious Belief Opposing Homosexuality

ANN ARBOR, MI – The Thomas More Law Center filed a federal lawsuit yesterday afternoon against the Howell Public School District located in Howell, Michigan, and teacher, Johnson (“Jay”) McDowell, for punishment and humiliation heaped on a student after he expressed his religious belief opposing homosexuality when asked by the teacher during class.

The student, Daniel Glowacki, a junior at Howell High at the time of the incident, was specifically asked by McDowell about his feelings on homosexuals. Daniel responded that as a Catholic he was offended by the gay and lesbian lifestyle. Because of his answer, Daniel was ordered to leave the classroom under threat of suspension. Read the rest here : alliancealert.org/2011/12/15/student-sues-school-district-and-teacher-over-punishment-received-after-he-expressed-his-religious-belief-opposing-homosexuality

Other Cases

Following Boy Scouts of America’s success in Dale

, gay rights advocates and “politically correct” government officials have attacked Scouting’s right to have access to public facilities and government forums on an equal basis with other community groups.

In determining whether the government may exclude an individual speaker or group from a “forum” program or facility that is generally open to others based on the speaker’s or group’s expression, courts apply different standards depending on the type of forum involved. No matter what the type of forum, however, any exclusion must be done on a viewpoint neutral basis. Any exclusion based on the speaker’s viewpoint is unconstitutional.

Gentala v. City of Tucson (Equal Access) 2003.
This is another equal access case in which the ACLJ is fighting on behalf of a group of citizens who applied to use a public park for a National Day of Prayer event. The city officials agreed to let them use the park for free but charged a fee for use of the amplification equipment. This fee is waived for other similar groups.

Prince v. Jacoby (Student Rights - Equal Access) 2003
When Tausha Prince, a sophomore at Spanaway Lake High School in Spanaway, Washington, tried to set-up World Changers, a student-led, student-initiated Bible club school officials stopped her. School officials refused to allow the Bible club equal status with other student clubs because it was “religious.”

Lamb’s Chapel v. Center Moriches School District 508 US 384
School district violated First Amendment by refusing access to school premises to a church seeking to show a film which addressed a topic from a religious viewpoint.

The reason you haven’t seen cases like these, I suspect, is that SS"M" and gay “rights” in general are the current cause célèbre of today’s media.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I thought this was a Christian site? Why is there so much hatred and bigotry coming through?

Good question. Honestly, while I appreciate and respect the contributions of several posters to this site, since coming here:

1. I have lost my faith in the rationality and intellectual nuance of most Catholics (not that others, including most atheists, are any better in that respect).
2. I have lost my faith in the morality and common decency of many Catholics.

Sad but true.

I am still glad to be Catholic though, despite all that. I love the message and I believe it is the truth, even though the messengers are flawed. I am flawed too, by the way, but I am not a hateful bigot.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Al

**I am flawed too, by the way, but I am not a hateful bigot. **

Very big of you, I’m sure.

The Catholics who admonish their brothers against the self-destructive sin of sodomy are now hateful bigots?

Then so were Lot, and Moses, and Jesus, and Paul.

You must be the only Catholic I know who claims to have risen above the hateful bigotry of Lot, Moses, Jesus, and Paul.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Al

**I am flawed too, by the way, but I am not a hateful bigot. **

Very big of you, I’m sure.

The Catholics who admonish their brothers against the self-destructive sin of sodomy are now hateful bigots?

Then so were Lot, and Moses, and Jesus, and Paul.

You must be the only Catholic I know who claims to have risen above the hateful bigotry of Lot, Moses, Jesus, and Paul.

As MindOverMatter would say: context.

And by the way, there is a huge difference between admonishing against the self-destructive sin of sodomy and calling homosexuals “sodomites”. But you fundamentalists are morally insensitive and numb to such important details of human decency.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

guest24

**I thought this was a Christian site? Why is there so much hatred and bigotry coming through? **

Would you mind citing a specific post that contains hatred and bigotry toward sodomites?

I haven’t seen one yet … unless it is a hatred for the Christian point of view, which I’ve heard several times. Apparently some people here think everything is to be tolerated except the Christian point of view. If so, what part of the phrase “Catholic Answers” do they not understand?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Al

But you fundamentalists are morally insensitive and numb to such important details of human decency.

Apparently the Catholic point of view really turns you off. You would have made a great character in Orwell’s 1984, one of the thought police who would have abolished the term “sodomite” from the English language and substituted “gay” in its place. Newspeak, or Doublespeak. In any case, thought control. Sodomy is anything but gay. It is sad.

Man up. Admit it.

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20

For your information, Al, the citizens of Sodom would have been called Sodomites.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I thought this was a Christian site? Why is there so much hatred and bigotry coming through? Regardless of what you believe to be morally right, please understand that there are people being persecuted and put to death around the globe for trying to live their lives the only way they believe to be right. This includes people of different faiths, women, homosexuals and others.

I’d like to think that some of the behaviour that you are seeing isn’t how the same people would act in “real life.” I’ve got no doubts there are some members of this forum that can be every bit as abrasiveness and rude face-to-face as they are here in this forum. But for now I assume that isn’t the majority.

I think that part of what you are seeing is aspects of the personality of some of the members once the the consequences of their manner of communication are (seemingly) removed. In real life if I am rude there are several punishments/consequences that I could suffer. There’s physical violence, damage to my reputation, being excluded from participation of other events, loss of social status, and so on. In the online world your reputation is attached to your user name but not to the rest of the activities in which you engage. If you get banned you can just get a new user name and start all over. If you are banned from something in real life the consequence is not so easily circumvented.

Also some of the conversation you see in this and other threads is centered around talking about labels. These labels are sometimes intentionally dehumanizing and deflationary or play on a them-vs-us mentality making it easier to speak about some one with the same level of kindness that one might in real life. I don’t think that a lot of people talking here have any gay people in their lives (friends, family members, coworkers) and haven’t heard their view on these issues.

Some members display what I find to be an excessive amount of out-group hostility. So I’ve taken advantage of the “ignore list” feature to just filter them out all together since I was never able to have a positive exchange of ideas with them.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Thinking

**I don’t think that a lot of people talking here have any gay people in their lives (friends, family members, coworkers) and haven’t heard their view on these issues. **

I believe everyone in this forum has known a homosexual person at one time or another.

The issue is not hatred of homosexuals. It is hatred of the sin which some (not all) homosexuals commit … sodomy. You don’t show people who commit sodomy a kindness by calling them gay.

You don’t call a prostitute a gay person.

You don’t call a liar a gay person.

You don’t call a thief a gay person.

You don’t call a murderer a gay person.

You don’t call a hypocrite a gay person.

Out of Christian charity shall we eliminate the names given to all these sinners and call them all “gay”? What is to be gained but a colossal lie?

And a smaller dictionary.

 

[guest24]

Because one group of people are being discriminated against, does that then give them permission to discriminate against another? This applies to all peoples. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

We are all Gods daughters and sons. We are all made in His image… We evolve and grow over time as individuals and as a society with love, faith, relationships, education, etc With this we also grow with patients, compassion and forgiveness.

In addition, our language has evolved as well with our vocabulary and how we use our language. We’ve learned that the meaning of certain words and how they are used has changed over time depending on where, when and how we live. We also know how powerful words can be in a supportive sense as well as in a hurtful sense.

Finally, do people really believe that by using hurtful words and using hatred instead of love will open peoples eyes and make them want to convert to the faith. It does the exact opposite. Its shuts them down and turns them away. There are ways of having an honest and open discussion and debate on this topic with out being attacking.

Preach with compassion, preach with love, preach with peace and I promise people will listen. People will be open.

Peace be with all of you.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Because one group of people are being discriminated against, does that then give them permission to discriminate against another? This applies to all peoples. Treat others how you would like to be treated.
…
Peace be with all of you.

When possible, I make efforts to understand where new posters are coming from. This post from you in a related thread gives the context to me and I would imagine to others following this thread.

Now I will not assume that you are in a same sex marriage in Massachusetts as you only refer to a committed healthy marriage in MA. You also identify as gay and Catholic. There are enough members here who identify as Catholic and yet dissent and do not accept, much less live Church teaching on homosexuality.

I do not think that we are arguing in this thread, which you should note is under the Philosophy subforum, simply the Golden Rule, or verses on “Judge not …,” and the call to charity, charity not isolated from truth, that is. Nobody has called for discrimination and maltreatment of homosexuals in this thread.

The OP is about ‘philosophic argument in support of gay rights’ which the thread starter premised on the separation of church and state to be the basis of extending legal gay rights (gay ‘marriage’) notwithstanding the reasons against it on moral principles and the social / common good. The discussion weaved, with many twists and turns, getting to an argument on the use of words ‘sodomy’ and ‘sodomites.’ The view that I hold (and others here) is that the words have a place in certain discourses, and its elimination from usage in language is capitulation to the homosexual agenda to see same sex ‘marriage’ enshrined in law.

Marriage serves a public interest. SS"M" does not stop with the public recognition of the private interests stemming from claims of committed relationship between two people. It extends to rights of parenthood and adoption of children where, in my opinion, bring on the real harm. The children of today are the future citizens in society. We know that the law does not only enforce, it “teaches” as well. When a bad law gets passed, it does not teach a good message. Already in Massachusetts and in some states, children are being taught that “gay is okay” in school. That’s grooming in a massive scale.
,

 

[sedonaman]

…
Marriage serves a public interest. SS"M" does not stop with the public recognition of the private interests stemming from claims of committed relationship between two people. It extends to rights of parenthood and adoption of children where, in my opinion, bring on the real harm. The children of today are the future citizens in society. We know that the law does not only enforce, it “teaches” as well. When a bad law gets passed, it does not teach a good message. Already in Massachusetts and in some states, children are being taught that “gay is okay” in school. That’s grooming in a massive scale.

I also have a problem with the word “discrimination”. According to constitutional scholar Lino Graglia, the very purpose of the law is to discriminate, for it cannot, for example, treat 18-year-old men the same as 80 year-old women; those under 18 cannot vote; those under 16 cannot drive a vehicle; those closer than second cousins cannot marry. Why, even homosexuals discriminate … against those of the opposite sex.

 

[guest24]

When possible, I make efforts to understand where new posters are coming from. This post from you in a related thread gives the context to me and I would imagine to others following this thread.

Now I will not assume that you are in a same sex marriage in Massachusetts as you only refer to a committed healthy marriage in MA. You also identify as gay and Catholic. There are enough members here who identify as Catholic and yet dissent and do not accept, much less live Church teaching on homosexuality.

I do not think that we are arguing in this thread, which you should note is under the Philosophy subforum, simply the Golden Rule, or verses on “Judge not …,” and the call to charity, charity not isolated from truth, that is. Nobody has called for discrimination and maltreatment of homosexuals in this thread.,

Were you offended by my post and my request for open debates and discussion to involve compassion? Not sure why the need to post a link to another thread. I have nothing to hide about who I am and what I believe to be right. Were you trying to “expose” me to others so they might then respond for my request for compassion? Not quite sure where you’re coming from. Oh and by the way, assume away.

Also, I appreciate you informing me of what this thread is titled as if I had no idea. Since you were so thorough to look through my other postings, I’m surprised that didn’t notice that in my previous post on this thread I stated “I want to apologize up front for this not being directly related to the original post”.

I do have a question for you regarding your statement “Nobody has called for discrimination and maltreatment of homosexuals in this thread”. Have you read through all 26 pages of postings? I have. I read some great postings in regards to the OP. I learned a lot and I am blown away and impressed with some members on both sides of the discussion. However, where I have a problem is when people abuse this type of forum and feel like they can spew all kinds of awful words just because they are hiding behind a computer screen. Just a couple for example:
*“the word GAY has come to mean “Got Aids Yet”.” …“Our Church is undergoing a very dark time. We have been infiltrated by homosexuals using the robes of piety as a guise for their depraved thoughts and ways. It is time for we Catholics to clean our Church as Our Lord cleaned the temple of depraved activities. There may be a place for homosexuals to practice their depraved activities, but our church is most certainly not that place” These were terrible terrible things that happened because Pedophiles and they were protected from within for too long! Pedophiles are heterosexuals and homosexuals who pray on children.
Also, calling gay men sodomites is in fact offensive. There are better choices of words that are more acceptable. Have we not learned that words can be very damaging and offensive. For example, do you still your the “N” word in referring to black people? I’m assuming not however in the past this term was widely acceptable. I’m also assuming that this forum is full of educated individuals who know how to communicate more effectively.

I love the opportunity to have a good discussion/debate. I think this is a wonderful site and a great resource. Its unfortunate when people use it to preach their hate agenda.

I have said nothing other than the request for people to have compassion and love for thy neighbor. Believe what you believe. That is the amazing and wondering gift we have because we live where we live.

Just so you can stop assuming… I’ve known that I was gay my entire life. I am a successful educated female and I am married to a wonderful women. I belong to a wonderful Catholic community here in MA. For the 1st 28 years of my life I always felt the Catholic church consisted of hypocrisy. I’ve seen people preaching on the street about gays, sinners and hell. Ive seen people handing out pamphlets with bloodied pictures of Christ stating that gays were all going to hell. I’ve had friends attacked and beat up on the street just because someone thought they were gay. However one day, I met a group of amazing compassionate Catholics and we started debating. I started researching different topics and I even started attending Mass which I now attend regularly. I befriended a wondering Priest who I speak with regularly to discuss different topics and teachings. And just so you know, everyone in my community knows that I am gay and very happily married. Do I still struggle with my faith? Yes, every day. But I continue work on my relationship with God by constant prayer and continue to educate myself on my faith.

My hole point is there are better ways of getting your point across to people. Through compassion, love and understanding. By using hateful language you are only going to push other people away from the faith. It is just as important for other people to learn about the Catholic faith as it is for Catholics to learn about other people.

Rather you like it or not, we live in the USA. We have many people of different faiths and backgrounds and it is important that we all learn to live next door to each other.

Again, I pray for compassion, I pray for love, I pray for peace.

Peace be with all of you*

 

[Charlemagne_II]

guest

**Also, calling gay men sodomites is in fact offensive. There are better choices of words that are more acceptable. Have we not learned that words can be very damaging and offensive. For example, do you still your the “N” word in referring to black people? I’m assuming not however in the past this term was widely acceptable. I’m also assuming that this forum is full of educated individuals who know how to communicate more effectively. **

sodomy is a dictionary word that refers to unnatural sex. As indicated in an earlier post, people who sin have no right to be offended by the words used to describe their sin. A thief might be hurt by being called a thief. So what? A murderer might be offended by being called a murderer. So what? A hypocrite might be offended by being called a hypocrite. So what? Are we supposed to call all these people by names that indicated their opposite.

Sodomy is not gay. Sodomy is sad. The effort to sugarcoat the sin is part of the reason why this problem needs to be tackled in an honest way. Gay people proudly parade down 5th Avenue. Do other kinds of sinners parade down 5th Avenue? They don’t. And it’s because they don’t want to draw attention to themselves as sinners.

Why do you think these people who call themselves “gay” call themselves “gay”? Are they not also trying to hide the fundamental sadness that haunts them? Or do you think they are rightly proud of their proclivity for anal sex (sodomy)?

Yes, sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes it should hurt. It’s compassionate to try and get people to confront the truth. Ours is not only a religion of love. It is also a religion of truth. You don’t get to love by hiding the truth.

 

[Mudgely]

I thought I posted this case earlier, or perhaps it was in another thread. This one of the more notorious cases of recent:

The reason you haven’t seen cases like these, I suspect, is that SS"M" and gay “rights” in general are the current cause célèbre of today’s media.

We can all live together. I dont buy that Christians are persecuted in places where they are they are the majority. Let’s not forget the many centuries of persecution by Christians in the western world. This is simply fact. So, equalizing the playing field may feel like persecution, but it is just the opposite. It is redressing a historic wrong. Sort of like when men discovered that women had the rights that they have now.

In places where Christians are a minority religious group there has been terrible and atrocious persecution. It is terrible what one religious group will do to another, and also religion is used to persecute minorities sometimes.

 

[sedonaman]

We can all live together. I dont buy that Christians are persecuted in places where they are they are the majority.

Nazis were a minority in Germany under Hitler; communists were a minority in the Soviet Union. Besides, you did not read the entire lawsuit, particularly paragraphs 51 and 52. thomasmore.org/downloads/sb_thomasmore/HowellPublicSchoolsComplaint–FiledDecember142011.pdf

Let’s not forget the many centuries of persecution by Christians in the western world. This is simply fact. So, equalizing the playing field may feel like persecution, but it is just the opposite. It is redressing a historic wrong. …

This is revenge and solves nothing because you cannot right the wrongs A did to B by having C doing wrong to D.

 

[guest24]

Nazis were a minority in Germany under Hitler; communists were a minority in the Soviet Union. Besides, you did not read the entire lawsuit, particularly paragraphs 51 and 52. thomasmore.org/downloads/sb_thomasmore/HowellPublicSchoolsComplaint–FiledDecember142011.pdf

This is revenge and solves nothing because you cannot right the wrongs A did to B by having C doing wrong to D.

Are you seriously comparing the current environment and the treatment of Christians in the United States to Nazi Germany? To the Holocaust???

Also, a teacher in a PUBLIC school system who’s salary is paid from tax dollars shouldn’t discuss “personal opinion”. This goes for both pro gay agenda and anit-gay agenda. There could be students in his classroom who might be gay and/or who might have same sex parents. Don’t those kids deserve the same type of education in a safe environment as the other kids? The teacher has a contract to teach the students on the subject matter of that day (math, history, science) and then to be a mediator to allow discussion in a safe environment for those children (with out implementing his own personal opinion). If he wants to preach is opinion on religion in the classroom, get a job at a religious based school.

The same thing happens on the other side all the time. I have a friend who got fired from a Catholic high school because the administration found out that she was gay.Note, she was not discussing homosexuality in the classroom. One of her colleagues noticed her relationship status on her facebook page that she was with a female. I also have a friend (heterosexual male) who got fired form a Catholic high school because the administration fond out he was living with his girlfriend and they weren’t married. In both of these situations the people were fired did not put up a fight or file a law suite. They accepted the termination because it was against the values of the institution where they were teaching. It goes both ways!

This goes back to the original argument regarding what rights to we have as American citizens under the Laws of our government (not our God). I’m not arguing for the Christian church to change what they believe and what they teach. The point is that here in the US our government has laws put in place to protect all citizens regardless of faith, non-faith, race, sex, age etc. They are not put is place to protect just one group of people.

 

[sedonaman]

Are you seriously comparing the current environment and the treatment of Christians in the United States to Nazi Germany? To the Holocaust???

How did I know you would leap to this conclusion? I was merely providing examples of numerical minorities oppressing a majority. You don’t even need to look that far: the Mafia is a numerical minority, but it oppresses entire cities. Get real.

Also, a teacher in a PUBLIC school system who’s salary is paid from tax dollars shouldn’t discuss “personal opinion”. This goes for both pro gay agenda and anit-gay agenda. There could be students in his classroom who might be gay and/or who might have same sex parents. Don’t those kids deserve the same type of education in a safe environment as the other kids? The teacher has a contract to teach the students on the subject matter of that day (math, history, science) and then to be a mediator to allow discussion in a safe environment for those children (with out implementing his own personal opinion). If he wants to preach is opinion on religion in the classroom, get a job at a religious based school.

I agree that he should save the world on his own time, but the initiative [Spirit Day, or what have you] is the brainchild of the school DISTRICT. It does homosexuals no good to oppress heteros.

…

This goes back to the original argument regarding what rights to we have as American citizens under the Laws of our government (not our God). I’m not arguing for the Christian church to change what they believe and what they teach. The point is that here in the US our government has laws put in place to protect all citizens regardless of faith, non-faith, race, sex, age etc. They are not put is place to protect just one group of people.

This is an old argument that somehow never works out in practice. It’s sort of a zero sum game. Since it is easier to tear down than build up, to make one favored group feel better by making it more equal necessarily requires other groups to be oppressed, all in the name of fairness, of course. Capisce?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

guest
**
This goes back to the original argument regarding what rights to we have as American citizens under the Laws of our government (not our God). I’m not arguing for the Christian church to change what they believe and what they teach. The point is that here in the US our government has laws put in place to protect all citizens regardless of faith, non-faith, race, sex, age etc. They are not put is place to protect just one group of people. **

I notice you have made no remarks concerning the efforts in some public schools to normalize the teaching of same-sex partners and marriage in the classroom. Since this is offensive to the morals of Christian school children who attend public schools, you might have noted that same-sex agendas in the classroom also ought to be forbidden. If Christian morals are not to be addressed in the classroom, neither should pagan morals be addressed there.