Poll: adding Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and Leonine Prayers to OF

[RJames]

Faith and morals cannot change - that is they cannot be right one day and wrong the next; nor are they done away with; the Immaculate Conception is not a doctrine that is going to be withdrawn, and for morals, adultery is not going to be permitted.

Because the Church is protected from making errors in faith and morals. This is the charism of infallibility for the pope and the general inerrancy of the Church, or the infallibility of the Church.

However, the Code of Canon Law is disciplinary

Yes, but it expresses truths of faith and morals, and those underlying truths are not abrogated with the specific law that might be abrogated or replaced with a new expression.

the code can be changed or done away with.

But the truthes remain. Before there was a CIC; there were still these truthes.

The Code cannot violate morals or faith and that is where you seem to not follow.

That’s exactly what I am saying. This is an indirect or negative infallibility.

The curent code does not violate faith or morals, and the previous code did not either.

The 1983 CIC cannot negate nor completely ignore and thus obliterate a truth contained in the 1917 CIC.

 

[otjm]

I can no longer take you seriously. So you do think the Church is a political organization.

You are incredibly naive if you think there are not politics in the Church. A simple review of some of the threads herein will show that.

But do I think the Church is a political organization? No, I think the Church is founded by christ, lead by the Holy Spirit, and subject to the foibles and faults of humans who make up the body of the Church. Ultimately the Holy Spirit triumphs, but not before humnas have their spin at it.

 

[otjm]

It’s going to take a heck of a lot of remedy to forget 30 years of such perceived abrogation. Let’s face it, there will be scars forever. And the OF, though legal and pastoral and perhaps the best of what the late 60’s had to offer, will be a constant reminder of those scars.

No, actually, in the scale of things it isn’t going to take much time at all. The Church has been round for 200 or so years, give or take a decade or two.

It has taken all of what - less than 40 years of a minor stir to come to 1) a resolution that gave the EFby permission, and 2 subsequently gave the EF by right. As it currently stands (and as B16 predicted in his accompanying letter), there has not been a plethora of Masses celebrated in the EF. It will take time; time for priests to learn to say the Mass in the EF; time for some recalcitrnat bishops to make more provisions; time for whatever equlibrium there will be to be found. But the amount of time it will take depends on wht scale one is measuring on; if it is the scale of the lifetime of the Churhc, it will be miniscule. If it is the lifetime of someone who was angered by the apparent abrogation, if they have the Mass in the EF available to them, then I would have to question why they might continue to be angry; perhaps they enjoy the feeling. The issue has abeen resolved canonically. For some who want to harbor grudges, that will never be enough; but then, the Gospels tell us about what Christ’s opinion is of carrying grudges. For those who may not have the EF available to them now, if it is an issue of someone blocking that unfairly, that should be resolved. If it is simply an issue of lack of enough interest, that is something that will only be resolved by positive work to create and sustain that interest.

And if the OF bothers people, some of them may just ahve to get over it, just as those in the Eastern Rite churches who do not have enough of a group to be able to sustain a parish have had to get over it. At some time in the future, and most likely not the immediate future of the next 5 years or so, the OF is going to pretty much look like the OF; 10 years out there may be a few changes. Ultimately? It is possible that the Roman rite may have one Mass that blends the two. and ultimately is most likely to be beyond any of our lifetimes.

But like it or not, I strongly suspect that whether the two forms (EF and OF) blend into one or not, we will have a Mass that is largely in the vernacular.

 

[otjm]

**Sorry if I was not clear. **What I meant to say was that those who faulted the EF for not having enough readings are incorrect. It is incorrect to speak of the OF as superior insofar as it has more readings from the Bible in the Liturgy of the Word.

Well, then, you seem to be at odds with a whole lot of bishops who seemed to have felt that we should increase the amount of scripture used at Mass as well as how much the individual Catholic becomes immersed in scripture.

 

[LilyM]

All true. But if they would indeed wait until the prayers of thanksgiving and /or Leonine Prayers were prayed, and participated, their souls would be better for it, and surely it would please God.

Of course they would.

And of course if they were made to come half an hour early and recite five decades of the Rosary as a congregation, their souls would be still better and it would still better please God.

And if they were made to stay for an hour and a half afterwards and said FIFTEEN decades, their souls would be better still and please God still further.

And if they were told to stay all day Sunday in Church, sunup to sundown, and spend those entire twelve or fourteen hours in continuous vocal prayer, still more so.

Private devotions have to remain just that - private. And are not be confused with the Mass, and are not be imposed on those who don’t wish to participate in them.

 

[otjm]

Because the Church is protected from making errors in faith and morals. This is the charism of infallibility for the pope and the general inerrancy of the Church, or the infallibility of the Church.

Yes, but it expresses truths of faith and morals, and those underlying truths are not abrogated with the specific law that might be abrogated or replaced with a new expression.

But the truthes remain. Before there was a CIC; there were still these truthes.

That’s exactly what I am saying. This is an indirect or negative infallibility.

The 1983 CIC cannot negate nor completely ignore and thus obliterate a truth contained in the 1917 CIC.

OK.so what is your point? Whether or not the EF was abrogated or not is neither a matter of faith or morals. it is a matter of law.

If you are saying that the EF could not be abrogated, you are simply wrong. Masses were abrogated at the time of Trent; the only forms of the Mass allowed to continue in the Roman rite were those which had been around from 200 years or more. If Trent could abrogate one or more Forms, Paul VI could also. That he did not legally abrogate it is a question that was not addressed specifically until Benedict 16 looked at that specific issue; prior to that it was assumed that it was abrogated.

There seem to be a number of people running around saying “I told you so”. That is a response that is not going to gather a lot of support from anyone other than someone else who wants to focus on that issue. John Paul 2 clearly wanted people who desired the EF to have it available to them. It is also clear that a number of bishops didn’t respond. That was then; this is now. The Mass was available to all; if it was in the form of the OF instead of the EF, it was still available.

Whether the EF was abrogated is not a matter of faith. The form of the Mass - Latin or English; this set of prayers of that - is not a matter of morals either.

There have been no polls I have been made aware of showing how many people want the EF in any give parish, or diocese, or country. The EF is showing up slowly from place to place. The vast majority of people I have met do not seem to be particularly interested in being involved in revising the EF (which is not to say they would not attend one if it were available; only that they don’t feel any need to work to see it become available). And that pretty much seems to be where it stands.

You seem to be of the opinion that someone should answer a question, when they are of the understanding that it has already been answered. Most people in that position don’t; but they may earnestly try to find a resolution to the problem, just as John Paul did. If you are mad at him, then get over it.

 

[I_Believe]

Of course they would.

And of course if they were made to come half an hour early and recite five decades of the Rosary as a congregation, their souls would be still better and it would still better please God.

And if they were made to stay for an hour and a half afterwards and said FIFTEEN decades, their souls would be better still and please God still further.

And if they were told to stay all day Sunday in Church, sunup to sundown, and spend those entire twelve or fourteen hours in continuous vocal prayer, still more so.

Private devotions have to remain just that - private. And are not be confused with the Mass, and are not be imposed on those who don’t wish to participate in them.

Hi Lily, point taken. But just as the Church does not currently require that the laity spend time in prayer and thansgiving after Mass, nor does it encourage thoughtless irreverence and disregard for those who chose to spend time after Mass in prayer.

I’ve had people walk up to me after Mass wanting to chat. I greet them with a warm smile and suggest we move to the Vestibule or step outside if the weather isn’t bad. No one has ever hesitated or asked me why I suggest we move away from the Sanctuary.

I’m very fortunate to belong to a great parish. On weekdays, we pray the Rosary before the noon Mass. After Mass, it is quiet, with about 10 percent or so of us remaining for 10-20 minutes in prayer. Many leave right after Mass to return to work. The parish is in the downtown area, so quite a few are spending their lunch break at Mass. Those who do stick around for conversation do it in the Vestibule or outside.

Sundays are a different story. But still, it’s not as bad at our parish as some others here in town.

I’m not budging on my opinion though. To engage in chatter loud enough to be heard by those kneeling in prayer in a place designed for that very purpose is rude. But I don’t shun them or focus a cold stare their way. I simply offer a prayer of reparation.

J+M+J

 

[ConservativeOne]

I can’t believe this would be an issue - not only debatable but perhaps not wanted ! In this horrific day and age? People not wanting to stay - what?---- maybe two more minutes to say a Hail Holy Queen, 3 Hail Mary’s, - and with all the evil rampant in the world - people don’t want to take 60 seconds to say the St. Michael Prayer? Is it more important to rush outside and socialize?

Traditional or Modern - Latin or vernacular - does anyone see the resistance (without my reading the entire thread - just a few posts) to even a little bit of prayer? How long can you stay sitting watching a football game - or the Olympics - or a mini-series?

We need to get down on our knees and BEG God to help us - not jump to our feet and run to the nearest exit as soon as the priest gives his final blessing.

 

[RJames]

OK.so what is your point? Whether or not the EF was abrogated or not is neither a matter of faith or morals. it is a matter of law.

And Church laws do have elements that pertain to faith and morals.

otjm:

If you are saying that the EF could not be abrogated, you are simply wrong.

It wasn’t, that is a fact. It was a fact before the Moto Proprio of Pope Benedict XVI.

otjm:

Masses were abrogated at the time of Trent; the only forms of the Mass allowed to continue in the Roman rite were those which had been around from 200 years or more.

But the Mass of the Latin Rite was not abrogated and replaced with a new rite. Look, for years the Mass of Paul VI was said to be the reform of the Mass of John XXIII. It was not, as we now have heard from Benedict XVI.

otjm:

If Trent could abrogate one or more Forms, Paul VI could also.

Again, the claim was made by so many that the Mass of John XXIII required an indult when actually, it didn’t or at least shouldn’t have, if the term indult has any meaning.

otjm:

That he did not legally abrogate it is a question that was not addressed specifically until Benedict 16 looked at that specific issue; prior to that it was assumed that it was abrogated.

And this (the fact of the abrogation) was either denied or questioned by many traditionalist Catholics.

otjm:

There seem to be a number of people running around saying “I told you so”. That is a response that is not going to gather a lot of support from anyone other than someone else who wants to focus on that issue.

Whether it is prudent to say “I told you so” is a side issue. They were right; it was never abrogated.

John Paul 2 clearly wanted people who desired the EF to have it available to them.

Not until 1984. Then 1988 again with Ecclesia Dei. Prior to that he showed no interest.

It is also clear that a number of bishops didn’t respond.

You mean almost none responded.

That was then; this is now. The Mass was available to all; if it was in the form of the OF instead of the EF, it was still available.

Whether the EF was abrogated is not a matter of faith. The form of the Mass - Latin or English; this set of prayers of that - is not a matter of morals either.

The liturgy expresses the faith.The formulae of prayer approved for public use in the universal Church cannot contain errors against faith or morals.

otjm:

There have been no polls I have been made aware of showing how many people want the EF in any give parish, or diocese, or country. The EF is showing up slowly from place to place. The vast majority of people I have met do not seem to be particularly interested in being involved in revising the EF (which is not to say they would not attend one if it were available; only that they don’t feel any need to work to see it become available). And that pretty much seems to be where it stands.

Polls? You do seem to think the Church is a political party or something.

otjm:

You seem to be of the opinion that someone should answer a question, when they are of the understanding that it has already been answered. Most people in that position don’t; but they may earnestly try to find a resolution to the problem, just as John Paul did. If you are mad at him, then get over it.

Nobody is mad at anyone. That seems to be some fixation with anger you and jfallow have. I’m not angry, just dicussing the issues.

 

[I_Believe]

RJames,

How’s things in Kentucky?

RJames,

You have completely hijacked this thread the moment you entered it, in order to further your own agenda. This is most unfair to the OP and those who wish to discuss his topic.

If you wish to discuss the purported deficiencies of John Paul II concerning the indult, as you view them, kindly start another thread.

Pax,
Carole

Your first post on a thread discussing pious practices is a question of how things are going in RJames’ home state(if he/she does live there, I wouldn’t know), and then you follow that with ridicule of a post straying off topic.

Mercy

 

[I_Believe]

I can’t believe this would be an issue - not only debatable but perhaps not wanted ! In this horrific day and age? People not wanting to stay - what?---- maybe two more minutes to say a Hail Holy Queen, 3 Hail Mary’s, - and with all the evil rampant in the world - people don’t want to take 60 seconds to say the St. Michael Prayer? Is it more important to rush outside and socialize?

Traditional or Modern - Latin or vernacular - does anyone see the resistance (without my reading the entire thread - just a few posts) to even a little bit of prayer? How long can you stay sitting watching a football game - or the Olympics - or a mini-series?

We need to get down on our knees and BEG God to help us - not jump to our feet and run to the nearest exit as soon as the priest gives his final blessing.

Exactly

The results of the poll are encouraging.

 

[PKinsale]

Well, then, you seem to be at odds with a whole lot of bishops who seemed to have felt that we should increase the amount of scripture used at Mass as well as how much the individual Catholic becomes immersed in scripture.

Well, as I noted, I am all for Catholics being immersed in Sacred Scripture. But, gosh, a “whole lot of bishops” have also done a whole lot of wrong on liturgical issues. Many bishops and cardinals have allowed or taken part in significant abuses. Many have also fought serious efforts at reforming the Mass, such as the new translation into English. And it is a whole lot of bishops who have dumbed down the language of the Mass and of scripture. In the process, they have dumbed down the faithful.

 

[kleary]

Went to the OF for DEc 8 Mass…

Fr. Malcolm (ourladyofsorrows.us) said the Last Gospel and prayer to St. Michael after Mass ended…

No prayers at the foot of the altar however…

The Last Gospel and Prayer to St. Michael can be added to the Novus Ordo because what happens after the final blessing is not part of the liturgy… If Fr. Michael can yell “Go Eagles” after the final blessing…so can Fr. Malcolm read the Last Gospel and prayer to St. Michael.

Ken

 

[LilyM]

I can’t believe this would be an issue - not only debatable but perhaps not wanted ! In this horrific day and age? People not wanting to stay - what?---- maybe two more minutes to say a Hail Holy Queen, 3 Hail Mary’s, - and with all the evil rampant in the world - people don’t want to take 60 seconds to say the St. Michael Prayer? Is it more important to rush outside and socialize?

Traditional or Modern - Latin or vernacular - does anyone see the resistance (without my reading the entire thread - just a few posts) to even a little bit of prayer? How long can you stay sitting watching a football game - or the Olympics - or a mini-series?

We need to get down on our knees and BEG God to help us - not jump to our feet and run to the nearest exit as soon as the priest gives his final blessing.

I resemble that remark. Every day and age has been horrific in its own way, ours no more so than others.

I say all the prayers you’ve mentioned, and say them as often as anybody here. However, being an adult, well and truly capable of regulating my own prayer life in the way that best enables me to pray effectively, there’s no point in me or anyone being made to say those particular prayers inside the church on a Sunday after Mass. I don’t believe that God somehow hears us better just because of our physical location or the time we choose to pray.

Requiring people to stay for prayers after the OFFICIAL and only required public prayer for Catholics, the Mass, will do about as much good as requiring children to stay in after school for extra algebra lessons - none at all.

On the contrary, prayers that people say because they ‘have to’ - excepting the Mass which is unique because it brings forth the Real Presence of Jesus, unlike the St Michael prayer or Hail Holy Queen - are likely to be not just ineffective but downright offensive to God, who warned us against vain and thoughtless repetition disguised as prayer which this is likely to be, for those who don’t otherwise pray already anyway.

I do see what people are saying about chatter in church after Mass, I certainly don’t like it and don’t indulge in it. If you’re saying we should pray in order to shut up the chatterers or early leavers then that’s disrespectful to God to whom we are praying, and totally contary to what prayer is actually for.

Our church a while back put up a notice on the door as you entered that simply said ‘Silence’. They needed to do no more to discourage the chattering, it worked a treat.

 

[LilyM]

A further thought - those who are going to leave are going to leave anyway, probably straight after Communion as most do, ten to one they won’t even know there ARE extra prayers being said, let alone hang around for 'em.

 

[CradleCath]

I can’t believe this would be an issue - not only debatable but perhaps not wanted ! In this horrific day and age? People not wanting to stay - what?---- maybe two more minutes to say a Hail Holy Queen, 3 Hail Mary’s, - and with all the evil rampant in the world - people don’t want to take 60 seconds to say the St. Michael Prayer? Is it more important to rush outside and socialize?

Traditional or Modern - Latin or vernacular - does anyone see the resistance (without my reading the entire thread - just a few posts) to even a little bit of prayer? How long can you stay sitting watching a football game - or the Olympics - or a mini-series?

We need to get down on our knees and BEG God to help us - not jump to our feet and run to the nearest exit as soon as the priest gives his final blessing.

Agreed!! I have only been attending a Latin Mass parish for 8 mos. now. But, in the parish I left because of abuses in the Liturgy Everyone & I mean EVERYONE, filed out pew after pew behind the priest as he processed out. If I had stayed, as I wanted to for a few minutes of SILENCE & private prayer, I would have ended up with a whole pew full of people scrambling to get around me, stepping on my feet & each others & generally be guilty of creating a diversion.

I have had two special intentions I’ve been praying about…one for several years & one for about 6 months. After the Latin Mass I now attend, I realized that I could stay & light a candle & pray there for a time. I wouldn’t be bothering people for most stayed & were deep in prayer themselves. So, I did it. I was OVERJOYED. It had been 45 yrs. The last time I remember leaving a candle burning in front of the statue of Mary, was when I was a teenager & my maternal Grandmother died. My Mother was devestate.d…it was a sudden death & a shock.so I lit that candle for Mom. so that my petitions took on a burning desire & became a “special request to Mary to intercede for my Mothers peacr of mind”.

All week I thought of my two candles & then the words, “fear not for I am with you, to the end of the age” came to me. I have mp doubt that they were words from a heavenly source. The candles was just a simple thing that I did to show that I was handing the worries over to Mary to present to God.

 

[bubba451]

I guess my question is what would it really hurt? I believe most people would stay and those who feel compelled to leave are going to leave ANYWAY. If our local OF priest decided to do this 90% of the people would stay and partipate IMO. PATFOTA would be a bit trickier but it could be worked out.

All that said, making the OF more like the EF seems as unlikely as making the EF more like the OF. They differ for a reason. Attend the one you like. Ask for a EF if you don’t have one for example–just be prepared to provide attendees.

I choose to attend (and drive some distanceto do so) the TLM for my own benefit even though I can walk to my OF parish church. I take nothing away from my OF parish-they do a nice job of it and many people attend. My priest is a very holy man and we are lucky to have him. I just seem to internally respond to the EF. I stay on task more and remember WHY I am there–worship, but that’s just me.