Poll: adding Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and Leonine Prayers to OF

[SenorSalsa]

Do you want them added?

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Do you want them added?

I voted for both, but strongly, strongly support the usage of the Leonine Prayers after the Mass. A parish in Milwaukee did this, and I loved it. They would sing Salve Regina (in Latin!) as the end, and the priest and altar servers would get all ready for the procession, do the prayers, and then they would process out as some music was played.

I think the Church needs this.

 

[Stewmont]

Do you want them added?

Nope.

The Penitential Rite (if you will) has changed from the priest and servers reciting it to the entire assembly reciting it. It’s been hugely improved in my opinion.

The “Leonine Prayers” can come right after the dismissal – as is done daily on the EWTN televised Masses. I visited the Cathedral in Los Angeles and they pray a prayer for vocations (pasted inside the front cover of the hymnal) just before the final blessing which was nice.

If the Church made the change I would support it of course, but it doesn’t seem too likely.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I also voted no. There is a noble simplicity to the Pauline Rite that I hope will be maintained.

 

[SenorSalsa]

Nope.

The Penitential Rite (if you will) has changed from the priest and servers reciting it to the entire assembly reciting it. It’s been hugely improved in my opinion.

what if the assembly could recite all of the servers parts?

The “Leonine Prayers” can come right after the dismissal – as is done daily on the EWTN televised Masses.

I have not seen this done(I usually just watch for the homily), but it was my understanding that these could not be done as “part of the Mass”, so you would have to have everyone process out, I would think have the priest devest, and then come back up, and lead a separate “prayer”. It seems this would have a lot of people leaving, first out of confusion, then out of those who don’t care to stay an extra 5 minutes for something that isn’t part of the Mass. I don’t quite know how it would fit in since they were not used at sung Masses, but I would say after the final blessing, the priest could reverence the Altar, meet the servers at the foot, say the prayers, then the recessional hymn

 

[Stewmont]

what if the assembly could recite all of the servers parts?

I would still prefer the current Penitential Rite. If the assembly took part it would be more of a timing during the Mass than anything else.

I have not seen this done(I usually just watch for the homily), but it was my understanding that these could not be done as “part of the Mass”, so you would have to have everyone process out, I would think have the priest devest, and then come back up, and lead a separate “prayer”. It seems this would have a lot of people leaving, first out of confusion, then out of those who don’t care to stay an extra 5 minutes for something that isn’t part of the Mass. I don’t quite know how it would fit in since they were not used at sung Masses, but I would say after the final blessing, the priest could reverence the Altar, meet the servers at the foot, say the prayers, then the recessional hymn

As soon as the dismissal is given (which is the end of Mass) you’ll hear a server say “prayers after liturgy” and immediately begin the Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel during the recessional.

 

[SenorSalsa]

I would still prefer the current Penitential Rite. If the assembly took part it would be more of a timing during the Mass than anything else.

not to derail my own thread, but I don’t think so, I mean the Confiteor would be moved, and doubled, but you would add the whole Psalm 42 part, a Glory Be, and a couple other short lines. And plus if it adds anything, I think it adds the idea that the Sanctuary is just that, Sanctus, Holy.

As soon as the dismissal is given (which is the end of Mass) you’ll hear a server say “prayers after liturgy” and immediately begin the Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel during the recessional.

I will have to look for this before I judge, but it seems minorly chaotic

 

[malphono]

For what it’s worth, I voted no as well.

(a) the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar have a long and rich history and are an integral part of the EF (and, with some variation, the other ancient forms of the Roman Rite, as well at least parts of the East) and it seems to me that is where they should stay. The OF is the OF and the EF is the EF. Now that we have the great gift of Summorum Pontificum, why would one want to mix the two?

(b) I never understood the reason for the Leonine Prayers after Low Mass in the first place, and I did not regret their passing with the Missal of 1962.

 

[SenorSalsa]

For what it’s worth, I voted no as well.

(a) the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar have a long and rich history and are an integral part of the EF (and, with some variation, the other ancient forms of the Roman Rite, as well at least parts of the East) and it seems to me that is where they should stay. The OF is the OF and the EF is the EF. Now that we have the great gift of Summorum Pontificum, why would one want to mix the two?

I would want them to mix to bring about the “mutual enrichment” that Benedict has said should happen by having both forms. I think ideally we would have one form that was somewhat of both, however, I do not in reality want that. However, I think we have to let the enrichment take place, so doing things like adding these prayers(which really wouldn’t be hard, just say the priest stops before ascending, then life goes on as normal, except at the penitential rite, where the confietior would no longer be an option as it was said already, so just the kyrie and gloria. I might even say it could be only for Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, kind of like how the Gloria is now.

Anticipating the jump some people make that I and others only want to enrich the OF, and leave the EF alone, I do think it is important that we don’t jump too fast to change it. Like I said, ideally we would have one form, and that would be an organically changed EF, that would be in the middle of the two present forms. The problem now is nobody wants to change the EF, because it was basically brought back for being what it was. But organic change should and will come. I really do think that having the three readings as in the OF would be(is? I forget) a good option for the EF, for a couple of reasons: more bible is always good, unity in the two forms. As a group we reflect on the scriptures for Sunday, and on the one week a month I attend the EF, I get different readings, so it really doesn’t help as it does if you hear the readings a second time when at Mass.

Thats my round about answer of “we want to mix the two so that each can be made better”

 

[Chatter163]

The “Leonine Prayers” can come right after the dismissal – as is done daily on the EWTN televised Masses.

The Leonine Prayers are not recited after EWTN Masses; I believe that only the prayer to St. Michael is said.

 

[Dauphin]

Stop tinkering and return to the TLM exclusively.

Even if these venerable practices were introduced to the NO, they’d find some way to banalize them and cock it up.
The idea that the congregation must speak the confiteor aloud for it to be meaningful is just more of the stupidity and novelty we don’t need.

It’s the culture of irreverence and self-centredness that needs changing much more than the rubrics.

 

[Brian777]

For what it’s worth, I voted no as well.

(a) the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar have a long and rich history and are an integral part of the EF (and, with some variation, the other ancient forms of the Roman Rite, as well at least parts of the East) and it seems to me that is where they should stay. The OF is the OF and the EF is the EF. Now that we have the great gift of Summorum Pontificum, **why would one want to mix the two?
**
(b) I never understood the reason for the Leonine Prayers after Low Mass in the first place, and I did not regret their passing with the Missal of 1962.

I would like to see a mixing of the two (organically of course) because hopefully by the time I die there will then be only one form of the Mass. “High Mass” in Latin with chant etc, and “Low Mass” in English, with chants, and what not. The Church really needs ONE form not two. Two is great for now, but eventually we need to let them mingle and become one once again.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The Leonine Prayers were NEVER part of the Mass.

They were always explicitly identified as “Prayers to be recited AFTER LOW MASS”.

In other words, after a Missa Cantata or Solemnis, they were not to be said.

 

[udoc89]

This is all very new to me. Had to look up the definition of “Leonine Prayers.” We had our first Latin Mass at my church yesterday (Sunday.) It was beautiful. We said the prayers afterward, per the Missal.

 

[Unitas]

I also think psalm 25 should be restored to the lavabo and the placeat tibi restored to the last blessing.

 

[SenorSalsa]

The Leonine Prayers were NEVER part of the Mass.

They were always explicitly identified as “Prayers to be recited AFTER LOW MASS”.

In other words, after a Missa Cantata or Solemnis, they were not to be said.

but they were also suppressed back in the 60s. So it isn’t as easy as a priest can just say them after mass today. WHile being after Mass, they to me, appear as a pretty fluid part of the Mass. Just as the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar aren’t part of Mass, they are before Mass, but it is clear, at least to me, that when those are going on, Mass “has started”

 

[Stewmont]

I would love to see some of the clear improvements of the OF make their way into the EF. I would start with the expanded readings and the reading from the OT on Sundays. I would also like to see communion under both kinds via the chalice given its improved sign value. I would also love to see the sign of peace (no matter how sober) added to the EF. Each of these elements (and I’m sure other things as well would improve the EF.)

Then again there is something to be said about keeping the OF as it is and the EF as it is.

 

[Stewmont]

but they were also suppressed back in the 60s. So it isn’t as easy as a priest can just say them after mass today. WHile being after Mass, they to me, appear as a pretty fluid part of the Mass. Just as the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar aren’t part of Mass, they are before Mass, but it is clear, at least to me, that when those are going on, Mass “has started”

Is one of them the prayer for the conversion of Russia? I heard that at an EF Mass a few weeks ago and it sounded ODD. Actually it sounded silly. I think in place of Russia they should be praying for the conversion of whichever country the Mass is being celebrated in.

 

[SenorSalsa]

I would love to see some of the clear improvements of the OF make their way into the EF. I would start with the expanded readings and the reading from the OT on Sundays. I would also like to see communion under both kinds via the chalice given its improved sign value. I would also love to see the sign of peace (no matter how sober) added to the EF. Each of these elements (and I’m sure other things as well would improve the EF.)

Then again there is something to be said about keeping the OF as it is and the EF as it is.

right, thats where I think the problem is, with one Mass, I think people would have been accepting of slow, organic changes to a middle point between the OF and the EF

but with two, each side is going to be unwilling to “give anything” to the other, so it will be hard to make the two meet in the middle

 

[Stewmont]

right, thats where I think the problem is, with one Mass, I think people would have been accepting of slow, organic changes to a middle point between the OF and the EF

but with two, each side is going to be unwilling to “give anything” to the other, so it will be hard to make the two meet in the middle

That “organic” buzzword is fairly silly in the way it’s being used by some today… Many of the “changes” from the EF to the OF are simply a change back to more ancient ways.