Poll: adding Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and Leonine Prayers to OF

[RJames]

Yeah, RJames…you got me…you beat me to a pulp with your logic, reason and pre-Vatican II holier-than-thou brand of Catholicism. I’m going to go find a quiet, dark corner to lick my wounds…in the future, please be a little easier on me, ok???

Why not just defend your position?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Bigger than the exodus after Vatican II?

So the Catholics of today have been so protestantized that a return to Catholicism would be unacceptable. They would then be forced to join the post-Vatican II Catholics who had already left for the protestant churches years ago; is that your point?

It depends on what one means by “Catholic” and what one means by “Protestant.” Catholics today have no need to “return” to Catholicism, if by Catholicism one exclusively means what many “traditionalists” define as Catholicism. Catholics today may need to return to Catholicism if they’ve left, ie, rejected Church teaching AS THE CHURCH TEACHES IT. Catholics who’ve embrace the “spirit of Vatican II” as opposed to what the Council actually taught may need to return, though there’s been such poor catechesis for so long that I rather imagine much of the culpability is mitigated by ignorance. By the same token, many “traditionalists” need to return as well.

BTW, I was raised Protestant. Much of what gets bandied about as “protestant” by “traditionalists” would be foreign to most of Protestant bodies of which I am aware.

Timyothis’ point is well taken and one I’m pretty sure that Pope Benedict and the hierarchy are clued in on: There is no need to radically change the liturgy. The stage is set for organic development and organic development will occur. There is no need to make the sheep bolt out of the flock when the rite to which they are accustomed, celebrated with reverence and obedience to the rubrics, is perfectly orthodox. A good shepherd does not force the flock to go where the flock does not have to go or need to go.

 

[RJames]

There is no need to radically change the liturgy.

Was there a need in 1969?

The stage is set for organic development and organic development will occur.

Isn’t that stage always set?

There is no need to make the sheep bolt out of the flock when the rite to which they are accustomed, celebrated with reverence and obedience to the rubrics, is perfectly orthodox.

Would you have said this in 1965?

A good shepherd does not force the flock to go where the flock does not have to go or need to go.

But yet the flock was forced into the new Mass while the Traditional Mass was not really ever abrogated. Priests who sought to hold on to the Mass that was not ever abrogated were persecuted for it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

But yet the flock was forced into the new Mass while the Traditional Mass was not really ever abrogated. Priests who sought to hold on to the Mass that was not ever abrogated were persecuted for it.

Has that not been rectified? The Motu Propio seems to have addressed that injustice, has it not?

 

[RJames]

Has that not been rectified? The Motu Propio seems to have addressed that injustice, has it not?

I think rather that it verified that the injustice was done. There were those who denied any injustice, as in Pope John Paul II.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I think rather that it verified that the injustice was done. There were those who denied any injustice, as in Pope John Paul II.

I don’t recall Pope John Paul II denying anything. Perhaps you would be so good as to provide documentation? At any rate, we seem to be discussing what is happening right now. The MP has the force of law in the Church, those who desire it are free to make their wishes known, I assume that if there are recalcitrant bishops or priests, there is a system in which the faithful may act on their rights. I understood the issue at hand (at least the issue I was addressing) was whether or not the faithful, the flock would be forced to wholesale attend the EF to the exclusion of the OF.

 

[RJames]

I don’t recall Pope John Paul II denying anything. Perhaps you would be so good as to provide documentation? At any rate, we seem to be discussing what is happening right now. The MP has the force of law in the Church, those who desire it are free to make their wishes known, I assume that if there are recalcitrant bishops or priests, there is a system in which the faithful may act on their rights. I understood the issue at hand (at least the issue I was addressing) was whether or not the faithful, the flock would be forced to wholesale attend the EF to the exclusion of the OF.

He didn’t think it was an injustice, and by virtue of the fact he granted an indult to celebrate a Mass that was never abrogated, that indicates he viewed the EF as requiring an indult. You don’t need an indult to say a Mass that has not been abrogated, do you?

 

[ProVobis]

The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar would reinforce the concept that the Mass is indeed a Sacrifice. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to add a few more prayers of a sacrificial nature, especially when the EPII is used.

The Leonine Prayers are ok, but they are not part of the Mass and are said normally only after Low EF. I doubt if they would enhance the quality of the OF. But people should be encouraged to spend a little time after Mass, perhaps in front of the tabernacle, to express a little intimacy with God. After all, they are in the House of God.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

He didn’t think it was an injustice, and by virtue of the fact he granted an indult to celebrate a Mass that was never abrogated, that indicates he viewed the EF as requiring an indult. You don’t need an indult to say a Mass that has not been abrogated, do you?

I’m not sure that really imputes bad motive to the Servant of God Pope John Paul II and I rather think that it might imply a hope on his part that the bishops would act and generously allow the EF where it was desired.

 

[ProVobis]

I still maintain that if the Church were to return exclusively to the TLM on the first Sunday of January you would eventually see an exodus of young Catholic families to those protestant branches that bear a strong resemblance to the Catholic services that they are used to.

Apparently you weren’t around in the 60’s and 70’s when there was an exodus of young and old following the effective suppression of the old Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar would reinforce the concept that the Mass is indeed a Sacrifice. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to add a few more prayers of a sacrificial nature, especially when the EPII is used.

The Leonine Prayers are ok, but they are not part of the Mass and are said normally only after Low EF. I doubt if they would enhance the quality of the OF. But people should be encouraged to spend a little time after Mass, perhaps in front of the tabernacle, to express a little intimacy with God. After all, they are in the House of God.

Rather than the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, I hope that eventually the OF has the same offeratory as the EF, in the vernacular, the “Suscipe, Domine.” It’s far lovelier and would reinforce the concept of an offered holocaust, though I don’t think that is lacking in the OF.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Apparently you weren’t around in the 60’s and 70’s when there was an exodus of young and old following the effective suppression of the old Mass.

But whether or not that can be traced to the “effective supression” is a matter of much debate. Correlation does not prove causation. As Tim has said, and this I also believe, the general upheaval of society at the time, the questioning of authority, etc., is more likely to blame. To say that the exodus happened BECAUSE of the suppression is far, far tricker than to say there was a general disturbance anyway, from which all institutional bodies suffered, because the former is conjecture and the latter is fact: it WAS a time of upheaval, of a suspicion of the “establishment,” and institutions of all kinds hitherto unasailable began to have their credibility questioned.

 

[ProVobis]

Rather than the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, I hope that eventually the OF has the same offeratory as the EF, in the vernacular, the “Suscipe, Domine.” It’s far lovelier and would reinforce the concept of an offered holocaust, though I don’t think that is lacking in the OF.

I’ll agree with the Suscipe but a holocaust?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’ll agree with the Suscipe but a holocaust?

The ancient Hebrew word for sacrifice. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

 

[RJames]

The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar would reinforce the concept that the Mass is indeed a Sacrifice. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to add a few more prayers of a sacrificial nature, especially when the EPII is used.

The Leonine Prayers are ok, but they are not part of the Mass and are said normally only after Low EF. I doubt if they would enhance the quality of the OF. But people should be encouraged to spend a little time after Mass, perhaps in front of the tabernacle, to express a little intimacy with God. After all, they are in the House of God.

What about the Last Gospel?

 

[RJames]

I’m not sure that really imputes bad motive to the Servant of God Pope John Paul II and I rather think that it might imply a hope on his part that the bishops would act and generously allow the EF where it was desired.

Who said anything about motives?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Who said anything about motives?

Well, since there is no record of the old Holy Father denying that the EF had not been abrogated, no record that he discouraged people from requesting it, no record that he discouraged bishops from granting it, etc., I assumed we had gotten to motive, ie, what was the Holy Father’s motive. You put it that if he had not thought it abrogated, he wouldn’t have granted an indult. I put another possible face on the same action of the Holy Father. I apologize if I misunderstood.

 

[otjm]

And I must take exception to those who complain about the lack of Bible readings in the EF. That really isn’t the point of Mass in the first place. The readings are prayers just as the rest of the Mass is, not a substitute for reading scripture outside the liturgy.

I would suggest that you pick up the Bible and read it then, paying particular attention to the New Testament. The Mass is modeled in part on Jewish religious practice. Christ Himself went to synagogue on Saturday - and what did He do there? He didn’t celebrate the whole of the Mass; but he celebrated the first part of the Mass, the reading of Scripture. And look to the Acts; it tells of how early Christians gathered for scripture and the breaking of the bread.

The scriptures are not the point of Mass? No, you are partially correct, they are not the sum total of the Mass. However, they are an integral part of the Mass - one of the two points, if you will - since the Mass began.

 

[ProVobis]

What about the Last Gospel?

I don’t know. Is this better than “Go in peace to love and serve the Lord”?

 

[otjm]

I don’t think it would be wise to pray the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, and to then turn away, with back to the Tabernacle, and face the flock to begin the Penitential Rite. It would seem reduntant to me, JMO of course.

As far as the Leonine Prayers, I’d love to see them added. I pray them anyway after every OF Mass I attend, and sometimes feel a need to also offer a prayer of reparation for the mundane chatter that erupts after Mass on Sunday. It’s sad how many of the flock jump into a social gathering mode a mere 10 minutes or less after receiving the Blessed Sacrament. It borders on sacrilege IMO. And to do so while others are still kneeling in prayer is rude. So yes, I’d like to see the Leonine Prayers added after the OF Mass, with the priest leading them.

Hm. At the end of Mass we hear “go, the Mass is ended.”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with private prayer in any way, shape or form. But to imply that people being in a social gathering is somehow bordering on sacriligeous is to say that the ancient formula is meaningless. Gathering in a social gathering is not per se un-Christian; in fact, it can be one of the most Christian things to do. It is a place where we have an opportunity to actually be part of a Catholic community. It amazes me to find parishes in which people act as if they were total strangers, bent on leaving those “others” as quickly as possible.