Poll: adding Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and Leonine Prayers to OF

[SenorSalsa]

That “organic” buzzword is fairly silly in the way it’s being used by some today… Many of the “changes” from the EF to the OF are simply a change back to more ancient ways.

true, but they weren’t changed in the Mass, a new mass was created from them.

Changes weren’t made to the Missal, a new one was written.

So while the changes were organic, they were not done in an organic manner

or so is my take

 

[PKinsale]

It will be interesting to see how the new translation into English is carried off and accepted. Some changes in the OF to more closely match the EF can be expected, I believe.

And I must take exception to those who complain about the lack of Bible readings in the EF. That really isn’t the point of Mass in the first place. The readings are prayers just as the rest of the Mass is, not a substitute for reading scripture outside the liturgy.

One change I would love to see is a consistent Calendar that does not allow dioceses to ignore or move major feasts to accommodate those who do not wish to attend Mass on days other than Sunday.

 

[Stewmont]

It will be interesting to see how the new translation into English is carried off and accepted. Some changes in the OF to more closely match the EF can be expected, I believe.

And I must take exception to those who complain about the lack of Bible readings in the EF. That really isn’t the point of Mass in the first place. The readings are prayers just as the rest of the Mass is, not a substitute for reading scripture outside the liturgy.

One change I would love to see is a consistent Calendar that does not allow dioceses to ignore or move major feasts to accommodate those who do not wish to attend Mass on days other than Sunday.

I’ve never really heard anyone complain.

What’s clear however is that expanded cycles and Sunday readings of the OF are superior to the EF. That doesn’t make the EF bad in this area – it’s just not as good as the EF in this case.

 

[I_Believe]

Do you want them added?

I don’t think it would be wise to pray the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, and to then turn away, with back to the Tabernacle, and face the flock to begin the Penitential Rite. It would seem reduntant to me, JMO of course.

As far as the Leonine Prayers, I’d love to see them added. I pray them anyway after every OF Mass I attend, and sometimes feel a need to also offer a prayer of reparation for the mundane chatter that erupts after Mass on Sunday. It’s sad how many of the flock jump into a social gathering mode a mere 10 minutes or less after receiving the Blessed Sacrament. It borders on sacrilege IMO. And to do so while others are still kneeling in prayer is rude. So yes, I’d like to see the Leonine Prayers added after the OF Mass, with the priest leading them.

 

[SenorSalsa]

I don’t think it would be wise to pray the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, and to then turn away, with back to the Tabernacle, and face the flock to begin the Penitential Rite. It would seem reduntant to me, JMO of course.

It did cross my mind that in most parishes, this would be the only Ad Orientum part of the Mass. I don’t know if this would be good or bad, but it would definitely be odd at first

 

[I_Believe]

It did cross my mind that in most parishes, this would be the only Ad Orientum part of the Mass. I don’t know if this would be good or bad, but it would definitely be odd at first

Yes, the PATFOTA are a preparation for what is to follow. Entering the Holy of Holies/aproaching the Tabernacle.

I can’t see Rome doing it. Not in their present form anyway.

 

[AJV]

I would say no to the Leonine prayers because they were never intended to be part of the Mass. They were ordered for a specific temporal concern. The Church is not desirous of permanently affixing extraliturgical prayers to rites. This is borne out by the fact that they were not to be said after Sung Masses, and various Low Masses (such as the main Sunday Mass) that met certain criteria - in other words, for the most ideal and solemn worship of the Church. They were only to be said after “private” Masses which shows their private character.

They were also added after the Mass because the rules for commemorations, the usual method of expressing petitions in the TLM, would have excluded them on occasion and would have also complicated the other rubrics. The OF has the General Intercessions which are adequate, IMHO, for expressing petitions for whatever temporal needs are desired or ordered.

I don’t think that their recitation would really prevent people from talking, wherever this happens. People would just consider this as the “new” end of the Mass and talk after them.

 

[Timothysis]

Stop tinkering and return to the TLM exclusively.

Oh yes, and this wouldn’t have serious consequences in today’s world, would it? I’m sure the average Mass goer of today would just love sitting in silence while hearing an occasional muttering from the presiding priest. I’m sure the 2,000+ family parishes with infants, youngsters and teenage children, not to mention the 40-something year old parents would just love sitting there staring at each other, not knowing what is going on or what they are supposed to do. And I’m sure that they would return week after week, day of obligation after obligation to sit there in silence and confusion. Yeah, I know all about the bi-lingual missal but I can hear it now; “why do we have to go to church just to read the missal; we can do that at home!” Yes sir, I’m sure that returning exclusively to the TLM (in defiance of Pope Benedicts wishes) wouldn’t see a massive loss of an already weak faith among Catholics in general.

 

[RJames]

Oh yes, and this wouldn’t have serious consequences in today’s world, would it? I’m sure the average Mass goer of today would just love sitting in silence while hearing an occasional muttering from the presiding priest. I’m sure the 2,000+ family parishes with infants, youngsters and teenage children, not to mention the 40-something year old parents would just love sitting there staring at each other, not knowing what is going on or what they are supposed to do. And I’m sure that they would return week after week, day of obligation after obligation to sit there in silence and confusion. Yeah, I know all about the bi-lingual missal but I can hear it now; “why do we have to go to church just to read the missal; we can do that at home!” Yes sir, I’m sure that returning exclusively to the TLM (in defiance of Pope Benedicts wishes) wouldn’t see a massive loss of an already weak faith among Catholics in general.

Oh yes Tim, haven’t you figured out that you pray the Mass along with the Priest? Or are you just looking to be entertained?

Have you ever read The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. Or the Last Gospel?

 

[Timothysis]

Oh yes Tim, haven’t you figured out that you pray the Mass along with the Priest? Or are you just looking to be entertained?

Have you ever read The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar. Or the Last Gospel?

Yes, RJames, I have “figured” that out, thank you. Have you figured out that if the Church went back “exclusively to the TLM” on the first Sunday of January that by the fourth Sunday church attendance would plummet? What makes everyone think that the latin Mass is superior to anything else? Even the Holy Father has said that the OF and the EF are two forms of the same rite. If someone were to say the the Church should go back “exclusively to the Missal of Pope Paul VI” there would be a symphony of outrage here. It is the duty of bishops and priests to tend their flocks, not play “my rite is better than your rite.”

 

[RJames]

Yes, RJames, I have “figured” that out, thank you. Have you figured out that if the Church went back “exclusively to the TLM” on the first Sunday of January that by the fourth Sunday church attendance would plummet? What makes everyone think that the latin Mass is superior to anything else? Even the Holy Father has said that the OF and the EF are two forms of the same rite. If someone were to say the the Church should go back “exclusively to the Missal of Pope Paul VI” there would be a symphony of outrage here. It is the duty of bishops and priests to tend their flocks, not play “my rite is better than your rite.”

So you can predict what would happen if this was done; you can predict the “fruits” of such a decree.

Yet you cannot even begin to see the actual fruits after Vatican II and begin to examine what caused those bad fruits.

 

[RJames]

Tim:

What makes everyone think that the latin Mass is superior to anything else? Even the Holy Father has said that the OF and the EF are two forms of the same rite. If someone were to say the the Church should go back “exclusively to the Missal of Pope Paul VI” there would be a symphony of outrage here. It is the duty of bishops and priests to tend their flocks, not play “my rite is better than your rite.”

Don’t you think the fact that the TLM is ancient and was never abrogated anyway (according to the MP) is of some importance?

Don’t you think the fact (of evil fruits) creates a doubt at least in the legion of novelties that followed Vatican II.

 

[Timothysis]

Don’t you think the fact that the TLM is ancient and was never abrogated anyway (according to the MP) is of some importance?

I don’t get your point. The Roman Rite was never the sole rite of the latin Church from ancient days. Here is an interesting read:

*St. Francis of Assisi can be rightly regarded as the “savior” of the Ancient Roman Rite, since, at the time of the foundation of his Order…he petitioned Pope Innocent III to take as the rite of his Order, the ancient Rite of the Roman Church, which was held to be the “Rite of St. Peter the Apostle”. During the reign of Innocent III, this rite was only used on the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter, in the private papal Chapel, for the so-called Gallican Rite was universally employed in the Diocese of Rome. *

And from what I’ve read, the so-called Gallican Rite had numerous variations all over Europe. It was St. Francis who published the first missal of his order in 1245 containing the Roman Rite. The republished missal of 1465 was the basis of the 1570 Roman Missal of Pope Pius V. So, ancient it may be but that doesn’t necessarily make it better. Eucharistic Prayer II in the Missal of Pope Paul VI is based on the prayer of St. Hippolytus which pre-dates the Roman Rite. Would you suggest that we use it in place of the TLM since it is more ancient?

Don’t you think the fact (of evil fruits) creates a doubt at least in the legion of novelties that followed Vatican II.

I and many others here subscribe to the opinion that it was the social radicalization of the 1960’s that had more to do with the “evil fruits” than the actual council itself. You have to agree that the current political and social liberalism that we see today would not have been tolerated before the second World War. The second Vatican Council did not change
society; society itself changed and that is the “evil fruits” that we are seeing today.

 

[Timothysis]

So you can predict what would happen if this was done; you can predict the “fruits” of such a decree.

I still maintain that if the Church were to return exclusively to the TLM on the first Sunday of January you would eventually see an exodus of young Catholic families to those protestant branches that bear a strong resemblance to the Catholic services that they are used to.

 

[RJames]

I still maintain that if the Church were to return exclusively to the TLM on the first Sunday of January you would eventually see an exodus of young Catholic families to those protestant branches that bear a strong resemblance to the Catholic services that they are used to.

Bigger than the exodus after Vatican II?

So the Catholics of today have been so protestantized that a return to Catholicism would be unacceptable. They would then be forced to join the post-Vatican II Catholics who had already left for the protestant churches years ago; is that your point?

 

[Timothysis]

Bigger than the exodus after Vatican II?

So the Catholics of today have been so protestantized that a return to Catholicism would be unacceptable.They would then be forced to join the post-Vatican II Catholics who had already left for the protestant churches years ago; is that your point?

No, that is NOT my point. Is your point, as stated here,

So the Catholics of today have been so protestantized that a return to Catholicism would be unacceptable.

that the “Catholics” of today are not really Catholic unless they return to the pre-Vatican II missal?!?!?

Are you saying that I’m “protestantized” because I hold true to what the Church believes and teaches even though I attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass? Are you suggesting that the priests, bishops and even Pope Benedict himself are “protestantized” because they celebrate the Ordinary Form?

 

[RJames]

No, that is NOT my point. Is your point, as stated here,

Are you saying that I’m “protestantized” because I hold true to what the Church believes and teaches even though I attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass? Are you suggesting that the priests, bishops and even Pope Benedict himself are “protestantized” because they celebrate the Ordinary Form?

No, you said the following:

Tim:

you would eventually see an exodus of young Catholic families to those protestant branches that bear a strong resemblance to the Catholic services that they are used to.

So a return to the “EF” then means an exodus of those who are only familiar with the “OF”. Why? Would it be so alien to them that they would flee? What of obedience, Tim?

 

[Timothysis]

No, you said the following:

So a return to the “EF” then means an exodus of those who are only familiar with the “OF”. Why? Would it be so alien to them that they would flee? What of obedience, Tim?

Oh for goodness sake…give it a rest, huh?

 

[RJames]

Oh for goodness sake…give it a rest, huh?

So you’re finished? I see.

 

[Timothysis]

So you’re finished? I see.

Yeah, RJames…you got me…you beat me to a pulp with your logic, reason and pre-Vatican II holier-than-thou brand of Catholicism. I’m going to go find a quiet, dark corner to lick my wounds…in the future, please be a little easier on me, ok???