Poll Finds Rift Between U.S. Catholics and Church

[BackToTheRock]

Now we all know that the Catholic church says exactly the same thing and has much, much more to offer-but that’s not the message the world is hearing (emphasis mine), or they’d be beating a path to our door.

Bingo!

When I see a poll like this, my first question is how can we get the truth across to bring those folks back? What are we doing wrong in our approach? There is no closer relationship with Jesus than to receive Him in the Eucharist, why do people who have left the Church continually say they were “seeking a relationship with Jesus”

Sure, there are people who are just rebellious, and we’re not going to win them over-but I really don’t think everyone is that way. I think they just aren’t getting the true message and that’s something that we who are in the Church can work on and improve.

Great post

 

[Tigg]

Excellent question. Are people leaving these churches because of their “positions” on these issues? If not, why else might they be leaving?

Allow me to offer one perspective. I’ve visited many Protestant churches over the years. The ones that are growing are the ones that focus on people making a shift from religion that focuses on “positions” to living faith that invites people to embrace their identity as loved children of God and, by extension, to accept others likewise. This doesn’t mean endorsing everything in their own or each others’ lives but rather to see others as companions on the journey who need (and access to through Christ) the grace of God just as they do themselves. I’ve met many people who identify themselves as, “I used to be Catholic”, who told me they now attend these churches for precisely this reason.

This leads me to ask if we’re focusing on the grace-filled transformation we experience in the living Christ or simply telling people they need to get in line behind our agenda? (one of these demands more than the other). I think the Church would gain far more loyalty from people if those of us who are Catholic made our starting point the living and speaking of grace-filled transformation rather laying-down-the-law and seeking to purge the Church of those we see as the infidels.

Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by “our agenda.” Without assent to our faith and the truth therein, we are empty shells – without benefit of a true interior life with Christ as the center. The very authenticity of our faith life is the “cause” of our rejection of any idea contrary to it. I am assuming that your post is related to the topic of this thread which states that the rift comes from the fact that so-called Catholics want the Church to change to embrace the direction of the modern world. A grace-filled transformation which includes love of neighbor will most certainly defend goodness and truth against the error and ideals of secularism – so I hope you aren’t suggesting a tacit approval of those who cannot go along with doctrine and creed . Charity of course, in all things, but my experience has been that subtle harm is being done to the entire community by those who either cannot, or will not, humbly submit themselves as they lead others into error. But on the bright side, the dissenters themselves reinforce age-old tenets through a re-examination which purifies.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Contrary I see the exodus towards Catholicism/Orthodoxy already started. I see the glass already half full. The numbers are increasing with Pro-Life, the Vatican has been on the news and media for weeks now and continuing into the Easter Vigil. There’s a new leader and new life coming to the Church. I see God at work.

I would agree…our RCIA class is one of the largest in several years. They are there to hear the Truth and we try to teach them that.

In lapsed Catholics, in our Catholics Can Come Home classes…most of them leave not because of Church doctrine…but because of real or perceived hurts from people in the Church or clergy. Some left because of no real teaching. This is something that we all could learn from. When we talk about why we want religious freedoms and the new healthcare law…do we ourselves explain why contraception is harmful? Or when we are observing our Friday abstaining…can we explain why we do it? Do we allow discussions on Catholic teaching? In these classes they are allowed to say what they DON’T like about the Catholic Church…freely. We listen. It then is open for a conversation in love. Rarely is it really about non-negotiables of the Church. And most of them come back with their whole heart. it’s hard to hold a returned Catholic down…we KNOW what treasure we have now!

 

[BackToTheRock]

I would agree…our RCIA class is one of the largest in several years. They are there to hear the Truth and we try to teach them that.

In lapsed Catholics, in our Catholics Can Come Home classes…most of them leave not because of Church doctrine…but because of real or perceived hurts from people in the Church or clergy. Some left because of no real teaching. This is something that we all could learn from. When we talk about why we want religious freedoms and the new healthcare law…do we ourselves explain why contraception is harmful? Or when we are observing our Friday abstaining…can we explain why we do it? Do we allow discussions on Catholic teaching? In these classes they are allowed to say what they DON’T like about the Catholic Church…freely. We listen. It then is open for a conversation in love. Rarely is it really about non-negotiables of the Church. And most of them come back with their whole heart. it’s hard to hold a returned Catholic down…we KNOW what treasure we have now!

 

[BackToTheRock]

Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by “our agenda.” Without assent to our faith and the truth therein, we are empty shells – without benefit of a true interior life with Christ as the center. The very authenticity of our faith life is the “cause” of our rejection of any idea contrary to it. I am assuming that your post is related to the topic of this thread which states that the rift comes from the fact that so-called Catholics want the Church to change to embrace the direction of the modern world. A grace-filled transformation which includes love of neighbor will most certainly defend goodness and truth against the error and ideals of secularism – so I hope you aren’t suggesting a tacit approval of those who cannot go along with doctrine and creed . Charity of course, in all things, but my experience has been that subtle harm is being done to the entire community by those who either cannot, or will not, humbly submit themselves as they lead others into error. But on the bright side, the dissenters themselves reinforce age-old tenets through a re-examination which purifies.

I think much of our problem as a Church is that we’ve become such an insider institution preoccupied with being the true and “correct” Catholics that we lose sight of the gospel message of new life in Christ as Christ defines it. Again, there’s no greater source for this than the gospels.

 

[Tigg]

Now we all know that the Catholic church says exactly the same thing and has much, much more to offer-but that’s not the message the world is hearing, or they’d be beating a path to our door.

When I see a poll like this, my first question is how can we get the truth across to bring those folks back? What are we doing wrong in our approach? There is no closer relationship with Jesus than to receive Him in the Eucharist, why do people who have left the Church continually say they were “seeking a relationship with Jesus”

Sure, there are people who are just rebellious, and we’re not going to win them over-but I really don’t think everyone is that way. I think they just aren’t getting the true message and that’s something that we who are in the Church can work on and improve.

This is a good post and you are speaking of the loss of faith are you not? I believe this article directly sheds light on your comments: (Emphasis mine)

Some people, to be sure, have to study, pray, and work to become Catholics. A gift of faith also needs to be understood. Faith is directed to reason, and reason must rise to receive it. Losing the faith is more like throwing a gift away than it is like losing an argument or a billfold. For the most part, losing the faith, formally or informally, is the result of wanting, choosing to do something that is against the faith……

**No one can lose or give up Catholicism without a “reason.” This giving-up means that we have specifically to reject the reasons why it is not all right to do so. **We can only reject if we propose an alternate “theory” of reality to the position the Church holds.

Faith is the result primarily of God seeking us. We sometimes fail to realize that our lives are not one-sided affairs. We think we are the only ones doing the seeking, that God just sits there doing His own thing while we rush about. This fact that we are first sought is what the parable of the Lost Sheep was about, and why we cannot be settled in our aberrations.

**Modern notions of freedom are based on the relativist proposition that nothing is true. **This position is convenient. It justifies our unwillingness to take anything but ourselves into consideration. If I “feel” like doing this or that, well, it is all right. Of course, no one generalizes this position in such a fashion that what someone else does to us is quite all right. We have to protect ourselves from someone else’s freedom.

The loss of faith is also a choice. It is not just the taking back of a gift; it is a rejection of it. The rejection may not be in explicit words, though often it is in words that seek to “justify” the loss in terms of another good or idea. In the end, the loss of faith does not mean that God ceases to seek us. It means that we cease to seek Him in the manner that He has guided us: the way of our redemption that is the following of Christ.

crisismagazine.com/2011/losing-the-faith

 

[Seeker1961]

Well, the folks I have met that have left the church for non-denominational churches haven’t lost faith. They are aggressively trying to connect to God. Not only do I know these folks personally, but you read about them over and over in these discussions.

It’s not that they’ve lost faith or rejected it, it’s that they aren’t finding it with us.

 

[Northumbrian]

Well, the folks I have met that have left the church for non-denominational churches haven’t lost faith. They are aggressively trying to connect to God. Not only do I know these folks personally, but you read about them over and over in these discussions.

It’s not that they’ve lost faith or rejected it, it’s that they aren’t finding it with us.

I am curious and do not mean disrespect, but how is “citizen of America” a religion?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Excellent question. Are people leaving these churches because of their “positions” on these issues? If not, why else might they be leaving?

Allow me to offer one perspective. I’ve visited many Protestant churches over the years. The ones that are growing are the ones that focus on people making a shift from religion that focuses on “positions” to living faith that invites people to embrace their identity as loved children of God and, by extension, to accept others likewise. This doesn’t mean endorsing everything in their own or each others’ lives but rather to see others as companions on the journey who need (and access to through Christ) the grace of God just as they do themselves. I’ve met many people who identify themselves as, “I used to be Catholic”, who told me they now attend these churches for precisely this reason.

This leads me to ask if we’re focusing on the grace-filled transformation we experience in the living Christ or simply telling people they need to get in line behind our agenda? (one of these demands more than the other). I think the Church would gain far more loyalty from people if those of us who are Catholic made our starting point the living and speaking of grace-filled transformation rather laying-down-the-law and seeking to purge the Church of those we see as the infidels.

Ross Douhart has an article on the decline of ‘liberal’ Christianity

nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=0

 

[Seeker1961]

I am curious and do not mean disrespect, but how is “citizen of America” a religion?

You skipped the part where I said “Follower of Christ”?

Those are the two identities that mean the most to me. I am first a Follower of Christ and I am secondly an American Citizen.

 

[ProVobis]

I see the glass already half full. The numbers are increasing with Pro-Life,

I’m not sure of what you’re saying here, but the numbers aren’t necessarily coming from Catholics. Abortion is an everyone issue.

 

[BackToTheRock]

Ross Douhart has an article on the decline of ‘liberal’ Christianity

nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/douthat-can-liberal-christianity-be-saved.html?_r=0

Thanks for the recommendation on the article. I think the critical part is this:
*"But if liberals need to come to terms with these failures, religious conservatives should not be smug about them. The defining idea of liberal Christianity — that faith should spur social reform as well as personal conversion — has been an immensely positive force in our national life. No one should wish for its extinction, or for a world where Christianity becomes the exclusive property of the political right.

What should be wished for, instead, is that liberal Christianity recovers a religious reason for its own existence. As the liberal Protestant scholar Gary Dorrien has pointed out, the Christianity that animated causes such as the Social Gospel and the civil rights movement was much more dogmatic than present-day liberal faith. Its leaders had a “deep grounding in Bible study, family devotions, personal prayer and worship.” They argued for progressive reform in the context of “a personal transcendent God … the divinity of Christ, the need of personal redemption and the importance of Christian missions.”*

Authors such as Shane Claiborne and Tony Campolo are two people who speak to this issue.

 

[Lucky7]

I think much of our problem as a Church is that we’ve become such an insider institution preoccupied with being the true and “correct” Catholics that we lose sight of the gospel message of new life in Christ as Christ defines it. Again, there’s no greater source for this than the gospels.

Actually, the greater source is the Catholic Church in both the scriptures/gospels and Sacred Tradition…that is how Christ defines it. A big problem in the Church is that there are so many folks who have lost sight of the Sacred Tradition part and are only looking at the Scripture part…only a portion of Christ’s message.

 

[BackToTheRock]

Actually, the greater source is the Catholic Church in both the scriptures/gospels and Sacred Tradition…that is how Christ defines it. A big problem in the Church is that there are so many folks who have lost sight of the Sacred Tradition part and are only looking at the Scripture part…only a portion of Christ’s message.

I know we hold Scripture and Tradition as the twin pillars of revealed truth (although I don’t recall Christ himself defining it as such). But what I hear and read most is people leaning heavily on Tradition while seldom if ever referring to Scripture. I hear occasional references to particular passages from the Old Testament and from some from the New Testament epistles. But seldom if ever do I heard my fellow Catholics refer to Jesus’ teachings in the gospels.

 

[msokeefe]

From the Times article:

“Even Catholics who frequently attend Mass said they were not following the bishops’ lead on issues that the church had recently invested much energy, money and credibility in fighting — artificial birth control and same-sex marriage.”

The Times, by putting that statement in the article is obviously anti Catholic. Socialism and communism is taking hold throughout the world. They are sneaking in, rather than coming right out and proclaiming their political agenda. The media is working with this movement. They want to eliminate the Church’s influence on people and replace it with government.

As far as polls, I don’t pay attention to them. Questions, properly worded to illicit a desired response is the way they operate. Pollsters learn to manipulate people, answers and results. The same methodology is used by attorneys when picking juries.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I know we hold Scripture and Tradition as the twin pillars of revealed truth (although I don’t recall Christ himself defining it as such). But what I hear and read most is people leaning heavily on Tradition while seldom if ever referring to Scripture. I hear occasional references to particular passages from the Old Testament and from some from the New Testament epistles. But seldom if ever do I heard my fellow Catholics refer to Jesus’ teachings in the gospels.

As Lucky has reminded you, the authentic source for morality is not “fellow Catholics,” but the Church which Jesus founded.. The Church contains within her both Scripture and Tradition. For that matter, the Jewish faith of Jesus relied very much on Tradition – the Jewish oral tradition, for example, which He regularly referred to in the Gospels and in which He participated. The Church has merely extended that very continuum, just as our Founder Jesus did during his own earthly ministry.

In any case, none of us can help it if our “fellow Catholics” are ignorant about Scripture, as so many are. I have always done my best to reverse that trend, partly by urging the Church, directly (urging my pastors, for example) to introduce Scriptural catechesis into ongoing Adult Faith Formation, which is a lifelong endeavor. Faith formation is not just for RCIA candidates and for children. The Church herself proclaims ithat, and by example, Jesus Himself demonstrated that, constantly.

 

[Lucky7]

I know we hold Scripture and Tradition as the twin pillars of revealed truth (although I don’t recall Christ himself defining it as such). But what I hear and read most is people leaning heavily on Tradition while seldom if ever referring to Scripture. I hear occasional references to particular passages from the Old Testament and from some from the New Testament epistles. But seldom if ever do I heard my fellow Catholics refer to Jesus’ teachings in the gospels.

I agree with Elizabeth’s response to you, but I would add:

I think the most important Bible quote would be Matthew 16:17-20:

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,* and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 **

This is the moment when Christ explains exactly how His Church will work. It will have the authority to determine what is bindng and what is not. Not everything Christ taught through the Church will be in Scripture. Ultimately, it is ALL about authority. Either we accept the authority or we do not. A huge problem in our Church is that many do not accept the authority given to the Church by Christ Himself (you know, it’s just a bunch of old men out of touch with what the Faith really should look like).*

 

[BackToTheRock]

As Lucky has reminded you, the authentic source for morality is not “fellow Catholics,” but the Church which Jesus founded.. The Church contains within her both Scripture and Tradition. For that matter, the Jewish faith of Jesus relied very much on Tradition – the Jewish oral tradition, for example, which He regularly referred to in the Gospels and in which He participated. The Church has merely extended that very continuum, just as our Founder Jesus did during his own earthly ministry.

In any case, none of us can help it if our “fellow Catholics” are ignorant about Scripture, as so many are. I have always done my best to reverse that trend, partly by urging the Church, directly (urging my pastors, for example) to introduce Scriptural catechesis into ongoing Adult Faith Formation, which is a lifelong endeavor. Faith formation is not just for RCIA candidates and for children. The Church herself proclaims ithat, and by example, Jesus Himself demonstrated that, constantly.

Thanks for responding to a previous post of mine. Just a few items of clarification. First, I don’t recall Lucky reminding me that “the authentic source for morality is not “fellow Catholics,” but the Church which Jesus founded.” Second, if s/he had attempted to do so I would have pointed out that I never said anything contrary to this. Third, while it’s true that Jesus referenced both Jewish scripture and oral tradition, he said many things original to him that redefined that scripture and tradition. In Matthew 5 we read where Jesus said 6 times "You have heard it said . . . . I say . . . . ". This was going way beyond relying on scripture and tradition as a reference point; he was using it as a launching pad.

OK folks - the sun is shining and it’s slightly warm so I’m going out. I think 10 pages is probably long enough on this thread. . . . at least it is for me so I’m checking out. Peace and a group hug to all :grouphug:

 

[Elizabeth502]

Third, while it’s true that Jesus referenced both Jewish scripture and oral tradition, he said many things original to him that redefined that scripture and tradition. In Matthew 5 we read where Jesus said 6 times "You have heard it said . . . . I say . . . . ". This was going way beyond relying on scripture and tradition as a reference point; he was using it as a launching pad.

And your point is? Matthew 5 is my academic specialty, by the way. Indeed, He intensified the Jewish moral code, did not reverse it, but fulfilled it and perfected it, as He Himself said. He absolutely reaffirmed Sacred Tradition, which for the Catholic means an unbroken continuity between Jewish Oral Tradition, as Jesus Himself clarified that tradition, and the Oral Tradition which continued to follow Jesus of Nazareth. What He additionally did, in that process, was to clarify and to frame what was enduring and permanent and irrefutable about that tradition, which has become part of the Church’s moral doctrine, and much of which ambivalent Catholics oppose.

 

[Tigg]

Well, the folks I have met that have left the church for non-denominational churches haven’t lost faith. They are aggressively trying to connect to God. Not only do I know these folks personally, but you read about them over and over in these discussions.

It’s not that they’ve lost faith or rejected it, it’s that they aren’t finding it with us.

Interesting comment since the Catholic Church is the only institution which holds the fullness of truth. Of course one can have “faith” in the wrong things as our own opinions and judgments can err.