Poll for Sedevacantist's, which Popes are valid?

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parvenu74 said:
Okay, clearly we have some sedes on the thread, so could someone explain just why any of the Popes since Pius XII would not actually be Popes?
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Net-Net is that the sades believe that thses popes are heretics and as such can not be pope based on teh following:

Pope Paul IV in 1559, fearful lest a Protestant be elected to the papal throne, decreed in Cum ex Apostolatus Officio that if the person elected the Pope should have deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into any heresy, his election shall be considered null, legally invalid, and void. He furthermore decreed that such a person must not be considered the pope, even if he took possession of the office, was enthroned, and received the veneration and obedience of all the faithful.
 
Mary_Henley said:
Man does this bring back memories…not good ones mind you!
I was raised sade-vacantist during my teen years…
If you are going to go mucking around in all that “back-end” matter you better be wearing a mighty high pair of mucking boots!

I listened to Fr.Corapi on EWTN and his theory on all this arguing is to walk away…the ones who are sade-vacantist are not here to listen…they are here to prove a point…theirs.
The others who are arguing in favor of Holy Mother Church are shouting into the wind. A wind of contention…not of the Holy Spirit…for He is not in contentious arguing.
Unless the Spirit moves their hearts to submission, humility and obedience the sade-vacantist will continue to embrace schism and even heresy. Schism that remains obdurate most often falls into heresy!
Logic will not prove your point! Reason will not prove your point!
History will not prove your point.
*My point *you may be asking yourself? Unless they have eyes to see…Humility and obedience…they will not see!
Unless the have ears to hear …grace and submission…they will not hear.
I feel very sorry for these mislead schismatics.
There is so much to learn and become in our Holy Catholic Faith…the spiritual life is so demanding…how is it that we have time for this type of argument…

“For thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build My church and the gates of Hell WILL NOT PREVAIL.”

“Do you believe that I can do this?
Yes Lord I believe!”
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Thank you for a most sensable post. I will take your advice.
 
devotus said:
Pope Paul IV in 1559, fearful lest a Protestant be elected to the papal throne, decreed in Cum ex Apostolatus Officio that if the person elected the Pope should have deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into any heresy, his election shall be considered null, legally invalid, and void.
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Papal Bull’s are not infallible, are they?
 
The others who are arguing in favor of Holy Mother Church are shouting into the wind. A wind of contention…not of the Holy Spirit…for He is not in contentious arguing.
Unless the Spirit moves their hearts to submission, humility and obedience the sade-vacantist will continue to embrace schism and even heresy. Schism that remains obdurate most often falls into heresy!
Logic will not prove your point! Reason will not prove your point!
History will not prove your point.
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Dear Mary:

I am arguing in favor of Holy Mother Church. There are those who disagree with me that can at least understand that the SV position is based on Catholic doctrine…they may come to a different conclusion…but they are arguing their position from Catholic doctrine…and that is exactly what I am doing as well.

All this talk of “winds of contention”…“submission” and “obedience” is not really addressing the arguments being made on points of Catholic doctrine.

If we must be obedient…then we must be obedient. If these men actually possess the authority of Christ then we obey.

Sedevacantism is a solution. Arguments about this are pointless without agreement that there is a problem. The SSPX, for example, recognises the problem and therefore we can discuss this with them. Arguing about the pope-heretic thesis with somebody who thinks that the bishops are unaware of the heresy being taught in their catechism classes, and that this crass and criminal ignorance excuses them, is a waste of time. If you don’t think there is a problem then there is no reason to discuss this topic.

Yours,

Gorman
 
“If we must be obedient…then we must be obedient. If these men actually possess the authority of Christ then we obey.”

Sounds like Luther!

“Sedevacantism is a solution.”
** No sadevacantism is SCHISM !**
If you don’t think there is a problem then there is no reason to discuss this topic."
If you are not part of the solution than you are part of the problem! Schism is NOT a solution. I take great umbrage at those who call Christ a liar! In asserting that the Church is in error is indeed calling Him a liar.
 
Sounds like Luther!
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Dear Mary:

This is not an argument.
If you are not part of the solution than you are part of the problem! Schism is NOT a solution.
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Accusing me of schism is also not an argument.
I take great umbrage at those who call Christ a liar! In asserting that the Church is in error is indeed calling Him a liar.
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I cannot offend you by something I did not say. You have said these things, not me. I hold the position I hold because I believe the Church cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals.

Yours,

Gorman
 
Papal Bull’s are not infallible, are they?
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III. Ex cathedra decisions admit of great variety of form. At the same time, in the documents containing such decisions only those passages are infallible which the judge manifestly intended to be so. Recommendations, proofs, and explanations accompanying the decision are not necessarily infallible, except where the explanation is itself the dogmatic interpretation of a text of Scripture, or of a rule of Faith, or in as far as it fixes the meaning and extent of the definition. It is not always easy to draw the line between the definition and the other portions of the document. The ordinary rules for interpreting ecclesiastical documents must be applied. The commonest forms of ex cathedra decisions used at the present time are the following:—
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1. The most solemn form is the Dogmatic Constitution, or Bull, in which the decrees are proposed expressly as ecclesiastical laws, and are sanctioned by heavy penalties; e.g. the Constitutions Unigenitus and Auctorem Fidei against the Jansenists, and the Bull Ineffabilis Deus on the Immaculate Conception.
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  1. Next in solemnity are Encyclical Letters, so far as they are of a dogmatic character. They resemble Constitutions and Bulls, but, as a rule, they impose no penalties. Some of them are couched in strictly juridical terms, such as the Encyclical Quanta cura, while others are more rhetorical in style. In the latter case it is not absolutely certain that the Pope speaks infallibly.
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  1. Apostolic Letters and Briefs, even when not directly addressed to the whole Church, must be considered as ex cathedra when they attach censures to the denial of certain doctrines, or when, like Encyclicals, they define or condemn in strict judicial language, or in equivalent terms. But it is often extremely difficult to determine whether these letters are dogmatic or only monitory and administrative. Doubts on the subject are sometimes removed by subsequent declarations.
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  1. Lastly, the Pope can speak ex cathedra by confirming and approving of the decisions of other tribunals, such as general or particular councils, or Roman Congregations. In ordinary cases, however, the approbation of a particular council is merely an act of supervision, and the decision of a Roman Congregation is not ex cathedra unless the Pope makes it his own.
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From A Manual Of Catholic Theology, Based On Scheeben’s “Dogmatik” Joseph Wilhelm, D.D., PHD. And Thomas B. Scannell, D.D. With A Preface By Cardinal Manning Vol. 1. The Sources Of Theological Knowledge, God, Creation And The Supernatural Order Third Edition, Revised, London, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., Lt. New York, Cincinnati, Chicago, Benziger Bros.1906 [Pp. 85-110]
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I will leave you in your self-created quagmire of doubt…I was once were you now are!
Christ stands outside your soul knocking…only you have the power to let Him in.

I can only pray for you in your obdurate position…if you are sedevacantist…I don’t have to call you anything…you are what you are…
This thread is a soap box!
Enjoy!
 
Just as Rome and Constantinople parted ways a thousand years ago, it is much the same today between Rome and Vatican II rejectionists these many centuries later.

Just as Protestants interpret scripture without the guiding hand of a magisterium, radical Traditionalists do the same with their interpretation of tradition.

The Papacy, rather being the source for unity in Christendom, has become a lightning rod of division, so it would seem to me. As the barque of Peter continues to fracture and splinter, so goes my faith.
 
Catholic29 said:
Just as Rome and Constantinople parted ways a thousand years ago, it is much the same today between Rome and Vatican II rejectionists these many centuries later.

Just as Protestants interpret scripture without the guiding hand of a magisterium, radical Traditionalists do the same with their interpretation of tradition.

The Papacy, rather being the source for unity in Christendom, has become a lightning rod of division, so it would seem to me. As the barque of Peter continues to fracture and splinter, so goes my faith.
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Well, if you expect no schism/heresy to ever occur, I have to say it is a touch naive. People have always done so, and always brought along a justification for their position, but the Church still stands with the pope as its head.

Let your faith be based on Christ alone, who is the sturdy rock, and not the actions of any who claim to be doing so in the name of God.

God Bless!
 
Magicsilence said:
Well, if you expect no schism/heresy to ever occur, I have to say it is a touch naive. People have always done so, and always brought along a justification for their position, but the Church still stands with the pope as its head.

Let your faith be based on Christ alone, who is the sturdy rock, and not the actions of any who claim to be doing so in the name of God.

God Bless!
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I don’t expect schism or heresy to never occur.

But when schismatics claim they are “Catholic”, our Pope in effect “Protestant”, and refer to the Masses celebrated in 95 percent of parishes around the world as a “service”, it can get to be rather disheartening…
 
Catholic29 said:
I don’t expect schism or heresy to never occur.

But when schismatics claim they are “Catholic”, our Pope in effect “Protestant”, and refer to the Masses celebrated in 95 percent of parishes around the world as a “service”, it can get to be rather disheartening…
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I think it is more disheartening that those respecting and worshipping God in the best way possible get slammed worse than those who don’t bother to go to Church at all.
 
BobP123 said:
I think it is more disheartening that those respecting and worshipping God in the best way possible get slammed worse than those who don’t bother to go to Church at all.
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Worshipping God in the best way possible. All the while rejecting an ecumenical Council, the validity of a few recent Popes and a certain Roman Missal promulgated in 1969, among other things.

But I suppose some (not all) who insist on that level of piety in their worship, something else has to go. You can’t have it all I guess.

It certainly is disheartening…
 
I will leave you in your self-created quagmire of doubt…I was once were you now are!
Christ stands outside your soul knocking…only you have the power to let Him in.
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I can only pray for you in your obdurate position…if you are sedevacantist…I don’t have to call you anything…you are what you are…
This thread is a soap box!
Enjoy!
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Dear Mary:

I doubt you have ever been where I am today…it appears that you may not even know why a well read and educated Catholic might come to the SV conclusion.

I guess you can’t see the arrogance (name removed by moderator)licit in what you wrote to me. I am quite used to this and it does not bother me in the least.

God Bless You,

Gorman

P.S.

Look closely around you…we are all in this together…and the Church will not fail us. God is allowing this to happen…and our ways are not His ways.
 
gorman64 said:
Dear Mary:

I doubt you have ever been where I am today…it appears that you may not even know why a well read and educated Catholic might come to the SV conclusion.

I guess you can’t see the arrogance (name removed by moderator)licit in what you wrote to me. I am quite used to this and it does not bother me in the least.

God Bless You,

Gorman

P.S.
My very dear Gorman,
Though I may not be what you consider a well read and educated Catholic, I do know why they question God’s Ordinances.
I was a sister in the sedevacantist group known as CMRI (a virulently schismatic group) for ten years…trust me…I’ve heard it all!
If what I wrote came across as arrogant…I have been called worse by a lot of sedevacantist.
I was not being arrogant only absolutely positive that I have the truth…sorry if it appears to be arrogant.
Nevertheless…you are in my prayers…I know well the agony…yes…I know the agony!
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I was a religious between the years 1969 and 1980.
To point out how deceptive these groups are I wish to point out several lies in this site.
This group was founded in 1967 by Francis K. Schukardt…try to find his name anywhere on that site!:eek:
He went down in “a ball of homosexual flames” and was virtually kicked out of community…darn…just when he was positioning himself to become pope.:eek:

When I was a sister there Mother Supirior …Sister Teresa…was caught in the Novitiate hootchying with a Frater (a younge man in the seminary):eek: …try to find her name (Janet Strauss) oops…they don’t have a record of her either???
Hmmm:confused:
This site is NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!
KNOW YOUR FAITH before walking into the dragons den.
 
Catholic29 said:
I don’t expect schism or heresy to never occur.

But when schismatics claim they are “Catholic”, our Pope in effect “Protestant”, and refer to the Masses celebrated in 95 percent of parishes around the world as a “service”, it can get to be rather disheartening…
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Schismatics, as history clearly shows never admit or refer to themselves as schismatics. Instead they predictably and proudly refer to themselves as the “true”, “faithful” Church of Christ, while at the same time damning the Church they left as being mired in “apostasy” and swimming in “heresy”. And they do all this while wrapping themselves up in a veil of intense religious piety and devotion.
 
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